Malaysian airliner shot down, 295 dead

[awepittance]

I think most of us can agree on one thing, that we are witnessing a propaganda/information war unlike anything we've seen before.

most definitely. Propaganda wars have changed pretty significantly since the collapse of the soviet union. Would be truly fascinating if it wasn't also really fucking scary. It's never going to get into 'duck and cover' territory again but shit's going to get real weird.

[chim]

 

I guess this bullshit is intended for domestic consumption.

Someone tried to edit russian Wikipedia article about SU-25:

So why it translated to english then? BTW fly height from the ukrainian mil gov http://www.mil.gov.ua/ministry/ozbroennya-ta-texnika/povitryani-sili.html

7-10 km + air2air missle must be enough. Anonymous wiki edit sounds more like bullshit from euromaidan news lol. On wiki SU-25 air2air missle range differs - in ru version 10-12 km and in en its 4 km by unproven source.

 

 

That's the SU-25M "Frogfoot" which has a 7-10km ceiling and is not the one we're talking about here

 

SU-25 "Scorpion" is a ground attack aircraft with a ceiling of 7km when unloaded: I.E NO WEAPONS - theoretically capable of shooting down a big slow plane at 10KM altitude but it's extremely unlikely. But if the plane was there, even beyond visual range, it's still suspicious.

 

I also agree there's some serious infowars shit going on here

[awepittance]

lol

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699766/Blonde-WWE-star-slammed-using-MH17-tragedy-tasteless-storyline-grudge-match-Russian-American-wrestlers.html

 

Two Russian-themed WWE wrestling characters have sparked outrage by incorporating the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 disaster into their act.

In a show last night, the characters 'Lana' and 'Alexander Rusev' launched into an anti-American rant in which they made reference to the flight MH17 being shot down and hailed Russian president Vladimir Putin for 'making fools' out of the U.S..

The Rusev and Lana roles often use Cold War-style rhetoric as part of their act, but their mention of last week's MH17 disaster, in which 298 people died, has shocked the wrestling community.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699766/Blonde-WWE-star-slammed-using-MH17-tragedy-tasteless-storyline-grudge-match-Russian-American-wrestlers.html#ixzz388mEyihz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

we're heading real close to Rocky IV territory (excited)

[delet...]

Just to get back on track with the ground to air missile thing.

 

[kakapo]

http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/20/robert-parrys-folly/

[awepittance]

http://louisproyect.org/2014/07/20/robert-parrys-folly/

i'm no fan of unnamed source-based reporting but the guy's characterization of Seymour Hersh is pretty bullshitty, after all he was the one who broke the Abu Ghraib and Mai lai massacre stories. Not familiar with Robert Parry at all though. It's not just Hersh that has caused doubt among the claims that Assad was the one who deployed chemical weapons in Syria either

[delet...]

The funny thing is that most people here would rather believe the same official sources through the same news networks that have been lying to them about american adventures overseas for decades (this isn't conspiracy theory, there are voluminous examples of countless major incidents that were straight up lies stated by those occupying positions in the highest levels. Saddam's weapons of weapons of mass destruction anyone (there were plenty of people at the time of note that were saying that the US administration was bullshit including the weapons inspectors and yet the media sexed it all up with wall to wall coverage. Our media you should realise by now is just the propaganda arm of the military industrial complex (not a conspiracy word either, but used in a speech warning the american public by the outgoing president eisenhower, if only people had listened to him then i wouldn't have had to cringe at the grandchildren and great grandchildren of those people, flag waving for another fucking war on this messageboard)? Gulf of tonkin anyone? and on and on from major wars all the way down to covering up war crimes like bombing hospitals or children, or their unreserved support for criminal governments around the world, including israel).

 

I mean if every week for months i walk around the same corner and get wacked in the face by the same guy. Then this week the same thing happens but i also happen to blink so can't see who hit me, there is a fair chance that it will be the same fucking guy. wake up yalL. [-; seriously. The best idea given who we are dealing with here (the us government a noted psychopathic killer, and the Ukrainian administration a client government with plenty of war crimes under it's belt already) is to err on the side of caution when you hear any claims out of them, given that in the long run everything that these people says tends to be lies. Lies that enable countless incidents of murder, vandalism and theft around the world.

 

I don't admit to having conclusive evidence of what happened with this plane crash, everything is still in flux, but there is no way that i am going to take at face value anything that comes out of the mouths of gangsters and thieves. It's better to begin the exercise as i said, by basing your analysis of claims on the (real, not fictionalised) track record of who is saying what, and by thinking about who would benefit most (in the big and small picture) from any incident that occurred. That would be a great start which will lead you much closer to the truth than just letting your position on an issue billow in the prevailing winds belching out of the hot air factories.

 

As a positive aside, i have noticed watmm getting a bit more clued up over the years, less likely to just believe whatever is thrown at them, but the diehards and those that haven't broken their minds free yet still continue to disappoint. We're getting there though, it's just sad how much of our world will get trashed before we reach that point. Perhaps though we'll suffer economic disaster before then and the emerging world powers will cut off the tap to these shenanigans. Leaving us impotent, but also guilty for never having resolved the issue ourselves.

[usagi]

People are too hasty to jump to wild theories. If there's anything we know about humans, we fuck up a lot. Humans and weapons in particular = fuckups. Some dumb cunt shot down that plane by mistake. (as in didn't realise it was a civilian plane)

 

think so too.

[MisterE]

yeh we need a crack force team of watmm junior detectives to hold together their power crystals and get to the bottom of this thing. the fate of the world depends on it

[joshuatxuk]

 

I think most of us can agree on one thing, that we are witnessing a propaganda/information war unlike anything we've seen before.

most definitely. Propaganda wars have changed pretty significantly since the collapse of the soviet union. Would be truly fascinating if it wasn't also really fucking scary. It's never going to get into 'duck and cover' territory again but shit's going to get real weird.

 

 

It's amazing that in the age of more information, sources and attempts at transparency the general public is just as, if not more, ignorant and mislead.

 

The funny thing is that most people here would rather believe the same official sources through the same news networks that have been lying to them about american adventures overseas for decades (this isn't conspiracy theory, there are voluminous examples of countless major incidents that were straight up lies stated by those occupying positions in the highest levels. Saddam's weapons of weapons of mass destruction anyone (there were plenty of people at the time of note that were saying that the US administration was bullshit including the weapons inspectors and yet the media sexed it all up with wall to wall coverage. Our media you should realise by now is just the propaganda arm of the military industrial complex (not a conspiracy word either, but used in a speech warning the american public by the outgoing president eisenhower, if only people had listened to him then i wouldn't have had to cringe at the grandchildren and great grandchildren of those people, flag waving for another fucking war on this messageboard)? Gulf of tonkin anyone? and on and on from major wars all the way down to covering up war crimes like bombing hospitals or children, or their unreserved support for criminal governments around the world, including israel).

 

 

I'd had a few discussions with a family member about this broadly, but Iraq specifically; for the longest time he claimed that there's always been a liberal bias in the news, but I clearly recall how much leniency the media gave to the Bush administrations case and the Dems who went along with it. NPR and CNN were hardly critical of the invasion until Fallujah, but by that point the cat was out of the bag. All of the networks rarely discuss the causalities and losses of equipment in Afghanistan. Sometimes I catch up on battles and skirmishes every few months and I'm staggered by how little is ever headline news...yet at the same time feel good PR stories about soldiers and veterans regularly make the rounds, and reality shows/documentaries (some of which are decent tbh) about the war on terror are perpetually on. There's very little journalistic consistency or ire of the press at those in truly in power, and when there are it's usually just a specific scandal or incident of someone "dispensable." We get a guy like Bernie Madoff arrested instead of an impeachment of a president's cabinet or a slew of reform and revolutions in economic policy.

 

I dunno, I'm hoping this is just an absurd paranoid tangent, but the 2014 Afghanistan withdrawal lines up conveniently with shift to East European deployments. Most people are not aware how much NATO has expanded it's operations in former Warsaw Pact states like Romania, Czech Republic, and Hungary. They've greatly augmented Germany, Spain and the UK as logistics hubs recently. Hell, that shift was occurring back when I was a military brat in the UK (2000/2001).

 

 

 

I guess this bullshit is intended for domestic consumption.

Someone tried to edit russian Wikipedia article about SU-25:

So why it translated to english then? BTW fly height from the ukrainian mil gov http://www.mil.gov.ua/ministry/ozbroennya-ta-texnika/povitryani-sili.html

7-10 km + air2air missle must be enough. Anonymous wiki edit sounds more like bullshit from euromaidan news lol. On wiki SU-25 air2air missle range differs - in ru version 10-12 km and in en its 4 km by unproven source.

 

 

That's the SU-25M "Frogfoot" which has a 7-10km ceiling and is not the one we're talking about here

 

SU-25 "Scorpion" is a ground attack aircraft with a ceiling of 7km when unloaded: I.E NO WEAPONS - theoretically capable of shooting down a big slow plane at 10KM altitude but it's extremely unlikely. But if the plane was there, even beyond visual range, it's still suspicious.

 

I also agree there's some serious infowars shit going on here

 

 

SU-25s are SU-25s, those variants (SU-25M, SU-25UB, SU-25UBM1, etc) differ in weapon suites and aviotics, not flight perfomance. Ukraine and Russia operate many. (Ironically, the plane was designed and built in another contemporary Russian adversary, Georgia.)

 

Su-25s are close are support airplanes but can carry by factory specs carry the very common R-60 air to air missiles (i.e. dog-fighting "shootdown" missiles). These missiles have a range of 8km. So 7+8 km is 15km, well above the altitude of MH17, which was closer to 10km.

 

It's unlikely but if we're talking a conspiracy theory it's a fascinating theory, that the Ukrainian air force had a Su-25 fly a typical sortie as a cover-up to a mission to shoot down a civilian aircraft.

 

After all, the more suitable aircraft for a shoot-down would have been the Mig-29 or Su-27, both of which haven't been in combat but flown over Ukraine in air defense roles and show of force (i.e. buzzing cities and government buildings early in the conflict. This was to assert dominance if front of pro-Russian militia and civilians and boost morale of Ukrainian troops awkwardly waiting for orders).

 

http://youtu.be/fFAwkcGzrp4

 

The Su-25s on the other hand, coupled with Mi-24 attack helicopters, have been used in close air support and attack roles, so they would be flying under, not at the same altitude, as civilian airliners. Now that gets into another theory, there's a claim that Ukranian Su-27s and Mig-29s were escorting certain civilian jets and that rebels tried shooting one down but the missiles instead locked in on a bigger target, MH17. Or, they assumed that the jet's were escorting a VIP flight and shoot down the jet for that reason. (Well then that could be another more outlandish conspiracy theory...that the Ukrainian government ordered fighter jets to "bait" the rebels and/or Russian air force to shoot down a civilian jet).

 

Even more fuel for conspiracy fire? All of these jets mentioned: Su-25s, Su-27s, Mig-29s, etc. are regularly operated in combat all over the world, often with "advisers" (a.k.a. contractors [a.k.a. mercenaries]) in the pilot seat and in charge of technical maintenance. These personal are usually from Russia or some other CIS state. So it's not impossible for a small team of mercenaries to fly a rogue jet in deceptive markings and god knows which side bankrolled them.

 

Man, I really have no idea. Still betting (and hoping) it was a substantially tragic but straightforward blunder in the fog of war by the insurgents.

[MisterE]

so now the theories include that ukraine tricked rebels into firing missiles at the wrong plane so that the rebels would look like dicks when they killed civilians? brilliant. i mean it makes total sense. really. like, i really truly mean that. genius.

 

but ya know what? i'm not sure its complicated or convoluted enough. can we add in... i dunno.. time travel, or the greys? both? maybe the bodies that fell were actually clones and the real passengers are in gitmo?

 

i mean we are to the point where, even if it WAS the rebels, hey dont worry, we got that covered. we got backup arguments to absolve them of any real wrong doing. beautiful. but hey theres no personal bias to see here coloring these deductions, folks. this doesnt at all reek of a case of 'already have our minds made up and now we must engineer an explanation to support what we want to believe'. bottom line- we all know some sinister white american male is probably behind this, somehow. we just gotta do this guys, make it work on paper. i think it's bill oreilly, he shot that plane down himself so he could blame putin and get a blowjob from megyn kelly

[joshuatxuk]

so now the theories include that ukraine tricked rebels into firing missiles at the wrong plane so that the rebels would look like dicks when they killed civilians? brilliant. i mean it makes total sense. really. like, i really truly mean that. genius.

 

but ya know what? i'm not sure its complicated or convoluted enough. can we add in... i dunno.. time travel, or the greys? both? maybe the bodies that fell were actually clones and the real passengers are in gitmo?

 

i mean we are to the point where, even if it WAS the rebels, hey dont worry, we got that covered. we got backup arguments to absolve them of any real wrong doing. beautiful. but hey theres no personal bias to see here coloring these deductions, folks. this doesnt at all reek of a case of 'already have our minds made up and now we must engineer an explanation to support what we want to believe'. bottom line- we all know some sinister white american male is probably behind this, somehow. we just gotta do this guys, make it work on paper. i think it's bill oreilly, he shot that plane down himself so he could blame putin and get a blowjob from megyn kelly

 

 

^

 

 

Man, I really have no idea. Still betting (and hoping) it was a substantially tragic but straightforward blunder in the fog of war by the insurgents.

 

 

Granted, I rambled a bit, but I don't actually prescribe to any of those hypothetical. They are unlikely imo, but not outlandish. False flag operations have occurred throughout history, and things a heinous and outrageous as killing civilians as a pretext for war have been planned before. And even if incidents like the Gulf of Tonkin and USS Maine sinking weren't 100% false flag operations, they were thoroughly exaggerated and re-framed into acts of war. That kind of spin and government meddling and misinformation by ALL sides is in effect as we speak.

 

I still think this was a insurgent missile shot at a mistaken target unless proven otherwise. To dismiss far more sinister, yet plausible, explanations as something as ridiculous as "ufos and white males and time travel" is quite naive and narrow-minded.

[joshuatxuk]

there's a great proverb / saying that invokes occam's razor and it goes something like this:

 

never attribute to malice what can most likely be explained by ignorance

 

on a similar note all military forces that we perceive as being cunning and evil fail for being ignorant of a more peaceful and trusting path. their negative perception of the world makes them moronic in a very epic way.

 

I find this comforting

 

damn, that's what I wanted to say but had neither the focus nor clarity to do so

 

well said

[Guest]

So they released the list of Dutch victims here in the Netherlands this morning. Journalists jumped on this and started writing stories on the ones involved. It's fucking grim to read, let me tell you that: pictures of twitter with people going on a merry holiday, or visit family they haven't seen in ages. All these joys, plans, happiness and aspirations. I have to tell you, I had to dab away a few tears, and it's usually very hard to me to get affected by stuff like this (mostly because I try and be "realistic" that horrible stuff happens everyday, and I don't want to cry everyday, but for some reason this is so much closer, and so I cry..)

 

I wonder how the country will react to this. There are some speeches I have to listen to from "prominent politicians" , and I still have to taste the atmosphere of the citizens..

 

weird..

 

just weird.

 

And I like the inquisitiveness here: I have been angry about all these bullshit lies being fed to us that it's very refreshing to see a new breed of upstanding citizens rise up and take matters into their own hands. Settled powers don't like this though.. I wonder how the human spirit will persevere through this.

 

 

 

some chunes i'm chilling too...

 

 

 

 

[chim]

My heart goes out to the Dutch, the victims, the families, all people affected.

 

The best idea given who we are dealing with here (the us government a noted psychopathic killer, and the Ukrainian administration a client government with plenty of war crimes under it's belt already) is to err on the side of caution when you hear any claims out of them, given that in the long run everything that these people says tends to be lies. Lies that enable countless incidents of murder, vandalism and theft around the world.

 

I don't admit to having conclusive evidence of what happened with this plane crash, everything is still in flux, but there is no way that i am going to take at face value anything that comes out of the mouths of gangsters and thieves. It's better to begin the exercise as i said, by basing your analysis of claims on the (real, not fictionalised) track record of who is saying what, and by thinking about who would benefit most (in the big and small picture) from any incident that occurred. That would be a great start which will lead you much closer to the truth than just letting your position on an issue billow in the prevailing winds belching out of the hot air factories.

There is no side involved here that has a favorable track record, but I think it's ridiculous to jump at complicated schemes and conspiracy theories right off the bat just because you have a bone to pick with the news sources. It's healthy to be skeptical but the length people are going here to figure out the malicious, sneaky aggressor here is baffling, considering the situation on the ground in this area. Hanlon's razor, people! (what Mesh Gear posted)

 

You also have to consider that not everybody here is under the jurisdiction of US media and may or may not live in a country with the oldest free press in the world, one that's been extremely transparent and critical of war crimes and government actions for most of modern history.

 

It's impossible to trust all aspects of the data at the point it reaches us, but what is that data really about? This is a conflict zone (now a war-zone according to the Red Cross) with a no-fly zone. There is a possibility that we're dealing with a false flag but what are the odds? Going from the current stream of data, photos, videos, the facts of who is on the ground right now telling people to fuck off from the crash site, leads to some natural conclusions. It doesn't give any grounds for dead certainty but it paints a picture of what's most likely to have happened, and until more relevant information is available we have to go from there.

 

Robert Parry's leads are promising but just a second/third-hand account at this point, the information has to hit the public if I were to change my mind. But that's not going to happen as the US wants an intervention war to happen, or what?

 

Since when did everybody with a brain start rootin' for Putin?

[chim]

Su-25s are close are support airplanes but can carry by factory specs carry the very common R-60 air to air missiles (i.e. dog-fighting "shootdown" missiles). These missiles have a range of 8km. So 7+8 km is 15km, well above the altitude of MH17, which was closer to 10km.

Regardless of the service ceiling of the Sukhois, the R60 air-to-air missile is a small 3kg warhead-less piece that's most likely incapable of disintegrating a big airliner in the air. In 1988, BAE-125 in Botswana was hit with an R60 and it only destroyed one engine.

 

Re: Robert Parry's claims

 

 

The Buk locations according to the recent Russian radar report are all in deep separatist territory and very near the russian border. This means that if his report is correct, the ukranians either went out of their way to infiltrate this area and pull this off, or it was separatists rocking ukranian threads. If it's are incorrect, it was likely just separatists, or separatists in tandem with russians. Or maybe just russian military? Really narrows it down, huh? My fuckin' head...

[GORDO]

I think by this point the story is quite clear and only obfuscated by a healthy distrust of anyone with power.

[azatoth]

 

 

I think most of us can agree on one thing, that we are witnessing a propaganda/information war unlike anything we've seen before.

most definitely. Propaganda wars have changed pretty significantly since the collapse of the soviet union. Would be truly fascinating if it wasn't also really fucking scary. It's never going to get into 'duck and cover' territory again but shit's going to get real weird.

 

It's amazing that in the age of more information, sources and attempts at transparency the general public is just as, if not more, ignorant and mislead.

 

It probably has to do with information overload. We are creatures of comfort and don't like to challenge our preconceptions and those that can package their information the slickest gets the hearts and minds of the people. It takes effort to piece together a story from all the sources available today and people just don't care or have the time to do their own digging. It's easier to fall back on what you already think and eat whatever pre-chewed news fodder that is presented to you.

[MassfreeKid]

Nowadays, we need professional hackers to investigate stories like this, not journalists. Everything that is "officially" known and confirmed about the plane will never be released to the journalists. The same applies to the previous plane that went missing.

[joshuatxuk]

 

Su-25s are close are support airplanes but can carry by factory specs carry the very common R-60 air to air missiles (i.e. dog-fighting "shootdown" missiles). These missiles have a range of 8km. So 7+8 km is 15km, well above the altitude of MH17, which was closer to 10km.

Regardless of the service ceiling of the Sukhois, the R60 air-to-air missile is a small 3kg warhead-less piece that's most likely incapable of disintegrating a big airliner in the air. In 1988, BAE-125 in Botswana was hit with an R60 and it only destroyed one engine.

 

 

 

Ah, good point, I didn't consider the warhead size.

[Schlitze]

This is a horrible, unthinkable situation for all that just want to lay their loved ones to rest. UN gotta go in heavy on these pieces of shit, they're starting to think they can get away with anything. Putin's coyness will cost him.

[joshuatxuk]

 

 

 

I think most of us can agree on one thing, that we are witnessing a propaganda/information war unlike anything we've seen before.

most definitely. Propaganda wars have changed pretty significantly since the collapse of the soviet union. Would be truly fascinating if it wasn't also really fucking scary. It's never going to get into 'duck and cover' territory again but shit's going to get real weird.

 

It's amazing that in the age of more information, sources and attempts at transparency the general public is just as, if not more, ignorant and mislead.

 

It probably has to do with information overload. We are creatures of comfort and don't like to challenge our preconceptions and those that can package their information the slickest gets the hearts and minds of the people. It takes effort to piece together a story from all the sources available today and people just don't care or have the time to do their own digging. It's easier to fall back on what you already think and eat whatever pre-chewed news fodder that is presented to you.

 

 

This is very true, echochambers and filter bubbles were what I was thinking of specifically.

[azatoth]

 

 

 

 

I think most of us can agree on one thing, that we are witnessing a propaganda/information war unlike anything we've seen before.

most definitely. Propaganda wars have changed pretty significantly since the collapse of the soviet union. Would be truly fascinating if it wasn't also really fucking scary. It's never going to get into 'duck and cover' territory again but shit's going to get real weird.

 

It's amazing that in the age of more information, sources and attempts at transparency the general public is just as, if not more, ignorant and mislead.

 

It probably has to do with information overload. We are creatures of comfort and don't like to challenge our preconceptions and those that can package their information the slickest gets the hearts and minds of the people. It takes effort to piece together a story from all the sources available today and people just don't care or have the time to do their own digging. It's easier to fall back on what you already think and eat whatever pre-chewed news fodder that is presented to you.

 

This is very true, echochambers and filter bubbles were what I was thinking of specifically.

 

The filter bubbles regarding news is probably the most unintentionally damaging aspect of social media. Along with this whole "me, me" attention seeking behaviour it festers. Hope SoMe dies soon.

[BobDobalina]

If history's told us anything, it's that humans only learn the hard way, if we learn at all. Robber-baron like wealth disparity? Sure. Fervent nationalism? Why not. What's the worst that could happen? We've come a long way (baby) but savagery and ignorace are persistent motherfuckers. TBH what frightens me the most is how our technological advances seem to grow exponentially* while our ethics continue to evolve linearly, and on the scale of generations.

 

* though I do think this will flatten somewhat in the next few decades as we come upon the physical limitations inherent in quantum mechanics, relativity & thermodynamics

[goDel]

And there's a stagnation in trust. Apparently. Exponentially growing technological advances, yes. Exponentially growing trust in humanity, no.

 

Trust is a personal decision, btw. So if you want to help humanity evolve, you have to start with growing a sense of trust in humanity.

 

/trollface