The idea of post-capitalist society

[chenGOD]

http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch

[AJW]

Since my toaster burned the crap out of my homemade bread yesterday I've been looking for a new, superior toaster.

 

One that I can put on and leave on its own for a few minutes without having to air out the kitchen/living room"utility room etc. for an hour.

On seeing this topic I was hopeful for a few seconds, but alas.

 

And lol, some way to make a point about integral production/manufacturing etc. He would have arrived at the same conculsion by merely looking at the components and how they are obtained and produced. Fun stunt though.

 

If he did not have a toaster he should have just made a little bonfire and poked his bread with a stick, which is what I'll be doing till I find a decent toaster.

[Guest M360]

Ted's gonna have a talk with you

[chenGOD]

Since my toaster burned the crap out of my homemade bread yesterday I've been looking for a new, superior toaster.

 

One that I can put on and leave on its own for a few minutes without having to air out the kitchen/living room"utility room etc. for an hour.

On seeing this topic I was hopeful for a few seconds, but alas.

 

And lol, some way to make a point about integral production/manufacturing etc. He would have arrived at the same conculsion by merely looking at the components and how they are obtained and produced. Fun stunt though.

 

If he did not have a toaster he should have just made a little bonfire and poked his bread with a stick, which is what I'll be doing till I find a decent toaster.

 

A) bonfire in living room - not best idea, i think.

 

B) where do you get your bread from?

 

C) You are from Denmark yes? wtf is up with the toasters there?

 

http://rottenindenmark.wordpress.com/2007/02/12/embarrassing-moments-in-danish-design-the-toaster/

http://thecopenhagenreport.blogspot.ca/2008/02/on-toast-and-ovens-and-heating-stuff-in.html

[eugene]

i fucking love capitalism and globalization, plz never end. nice vid.

[AJW]

Lol, slipped my mind to mention it was outdoor bonfire. But yeah, outdoor bonfire for sure.

 

I make my own bread, ingredients (except for flour which are from a local mill) are ofc from shops from factories from refineries etc. so yup, capitalism has me by the balls on that one

 

the traditional danish toaster is flat, meaning you have to flip them over manually and they're pretty slow. The pop up toaster has gained more popularity here over the years but it's still a bit of a prob to find the perfect one.

 

Perhaps if he had focused more on building something crude that served the purpose of a toaster, without trying to replicate an actual toaster as we know it piece by piece, he might have had more success.

 

But then I suppose the undercurrent of "evil capitalism" would have been lost.

[chenGOD]

Lol, slipped my mind to mention it was outdoor bonfire. But yeah, outdoor bonfire for sure.

 

I make my own bread, ingredients (except for flour which are from a local mill) are ofc from shops from factories from refineries etc. so yup, capitalism has me by the balls on that one

 

the traditional danish toaster is flat, meaning you have to flip them over manually and they're pretty slow. The pop up toaster has gained more popularity here over the years but it's still a bit of a prob to find the perfect one.

 

Perhaps if he had focused more on building something crude that served the purpose of a toaster, without trying to replicate an actual toaster as we know it piece by piece, he might have had more success.

 

But then I suppose the undercurrent of "evil capitalism" would have been lost.

 

I think you're missing the point of the video: it's not that capitalism is evil - it's that our lives are so interconnected and dependent on many others that trying to create all these things from scratch is a self-defeating process. You're wasting so much time on building a toaster by yourself, when others can do it for you, better, and for cheaper.

[Braintree]

 

Lol, slipped my mind to mention it was outdoor bonfire. But yeah, outdoor bonfire for sure.

 

I make my own bread, ingredients (except for flour which are from a local mill) are ofc from shops from factories from refineries etc. so yup, capitalism has me by the balls on that one

 

the traditional danish toaster is flat, meaning you have to flip them over manually and they're pretty slow. The pop up toaster has gained more popularity here over the years but it's still a bit of a prob to find the perfect one.

 

Perhaps if he had focused more on building something crude that served the purpose of a toaster, without trying to replicate an actual toaster as we know it piece by piece, he might have had more success.

 

But then I suppose the undercurrent of "evil capitalism" would have been lost.

 

I think you're missing the point of the video: it's not that capitalism is evil - it's that our lives are so interconnected and dependent on many others that trying to create all these things from scratch is a self-defeating process. You're wasting so much time on building a toaster by yourself, when others can do it for you, better, and for cheaper.

 

 

I think it's commenting more about how we don't value the labor that went into the production itself, rather than commenting on how it's self defeating. The point is more that we are supposed to be interconnected (since we live in a society), and when you're more aware of the whole process that goes into building a machine with a few hundred parts, you start to value the people that made it possible and available for so cheap.

 

It's not that there are other people that can do it better, faster, or cheaper than you, it's that you have a role in the society and their contribution (however obscure) is as valid as yours. Without the miners, we wouldn't have the ore to make the iron to make the steel to make the internal components that make up the toaster. And so forth.

[Candiru]

I think we value Wes Anderson or George clooney more than the guy who invented the toaster, developed the lush high tech toasters we can appreciate today, or the guys developing cutting edge medical technology and that's part of the problem. But hey I'm just a stooge

[LimpyLoo]

 

 

Lol, slipped my mind to mention it was outdoor bonfire. But yeah, outdoor bonfire for sure.

 

I make my own bread, ingredients (except for flour which are from a local mill) are ofc from shops from factories from refineries etc. so yup, capitalism has me by the balls on that one

 

the traditional danish toaster is flat, meaning you have to flip them over manually and they're pretty slow. The pop up toaster has gained more popularity here over the years but it's still a bit of a prob to find the perfect one.

 

Perhaps if he had focused more on building something crude that served the purpose of a toaster, without trying to replicate an actual toaster as we know it piece by piece, he might have had more success.

 

But then I suppose the undercurrent of "evil capitalism" would have been lost.

 

I think you're missing the point of the video: it's not that capitalism is evil - it's that our lives are so interconnected and dependent on many others that trying to create all these things from scratch is a self-defeating process. You're wasting so much time on building a toaster by yourself, when others can do it for you, better, and for cheaper.

 

 

I think it's commenting more about how we don't value the labor that went into the production itself, rather than commenting on how it's self defeating. The point is more that we are supposed to be interconnected (since we live in a society), and when you're more aware of the whole process that goes into building a machine with a few hundred parts, you start to value the people that made it possible and available for so cheap.

 

It's not that there are other people that can do it better, faster, or cheaper than you, it's that you have a role in the society and their contribution (however obscure) is as valid as yours. Without the miners, we wouldn't have the ore to make the iron to make the steel to make the internal components that make up the toaster. And so forth.

 

 

Why does anyone think that a post-capitalist society wouldn't have specialization? I don't see how DIY toasters have anything to do with capitalism. Toasters could and would exist in, say, a socialist society. I think that the world would more or less work the way it does now, except things would be organized differently.

[kokoon]

It's not that there are other people that can do it better, faster, or cheaper than you, it's that you have a role in the society and their contribution (however obscure) is as valid as yours.

I'll speak for myself here - my contribution isn't worth 0.001% of theirs, yet I earn 1000x the money they do.

[Guest]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
....

[chenGOD]

 

 

 

Lol, slipped my mind to mention it was outdoor bonfire. But yeah, outdoor bonfire for sure.

 

I make my own bread, ingredients (except for flour which are from a local mill) are ofc from shops from factories from refineries etc. so yup, capitalism has me by the balls on that one

 

the traditional danish toaster is flat, meaning you have to flip them over manually and they're pretty slow. The pop up toaster has gained more popularity here over the years but it's still a bit of a prob to find the perfect one.

 

Perhaps if he had focused more on building something crude that served the purpose of a toaster, without trying to replicate an actual toaster as we know it piece by piece, he might have had more success.

 

But then I suppose the undercurrent of "evil capitalism" would have been lost.

I think you're missing the point of the video: it's not that capitalism is evil - it's that our lives are so interconnected and dependent on many others that trying to create all these things from scratch is a self-defeating process. You're wasting so much time on building a toaster by yourself, when others can do it for you, better, and for cheaper.

I think it's commenting more about how we don't value the labor that went into the production itself, rather than commenting on how it's self defeating. The point is more that we are supposed to be interconnected (since we live in a society), and when you're more aware of the whole process that goes into building a machine with a few hundred parts, you start to value the people that made it possible and available for so cheap.

 

It's not that there are other people that can do it better, faster, or cheaper than you, it's that you have a role in the society and their contribution (however obscure) is as valid as yours. Without the miners, we wouldn't have the ore to make the iron to make the steel to make the internal components that make up the toaster. And so forth.

Why does anyone think that a post-capitalist society wouldn't have specialization? I don't see how DIY toasters have anything to do with capitalism. Toasters could and would exist in, say, a socialist society. I think that the world would more or less work the way it does now, except things would be organized differently.

Are you conflating an economic model with a political one?

[luke viia]

^ I'm guessing LL was referring to some form of market socialism (which is indeed an alternative to capitalist systems of production)

[luke viia]

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil... I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

(Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?)

 

[LimpyLoo]

pshh typical Einstein

always trying to mooch off the system

 

 

But yeah that's exactly what I was referring to. The basic elevator pitch for socialism is that "the workers own the factory" and humans are no longer permitted to exploit others for profit.

 

But anywhere there is nothing in principal precluding the manufacture of toaster parts.

[Braintree]

 

It's not that there are other people that can do it better, faster, or cheaper than you, it's that you have a role in the society and their contribution (however obscure) is as valid as yours.

I'll speak for myself here - my contribution isn't worth 0.001% of theirs, yet I earn 1000x the money they do.

 

 

I was being polite

[chenGOD]

 

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil... I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

(Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?)

 

 

 

Planned economies don't work - period.

 

pshh typical Einstein

always trying to mooch off the system

 

 

But yeah that's exactly what I was referring to. The basic elevator pitch for socialism is that "the workers own the factory" and humans are no longer permitted to exploit others for profit.

 

But anywhere there is nothing in principal precluding the manufacture of toaster parts.

 

What you want is a market economy that is well-regulated with proper enforcement of said regulations. In addition, it would have strong social safety nets.

Corporations would not be considered human in any sense (especially legal), and probably a cap on income, after which income earned is returned entirely to the state.

And yes, toasters would be permitted.

[AJW]

Ok, problem solved!

 

 

I've also reached a relatively satisfactory solution reagarding my own toaster situation:

 

I now bake my loaf 3/4 finished in the oven, I then use the OTT heat of the toaster to bake it finished, slice by slice as I need it, keeping the not entirely baked loaf in the fridge for later.

 

Hey presto no burnt toast and (almost) freshly baked bread everytime!