Bill Cosby is a big old rapist (on the loose)

[goDel]

*facepalm*

[Candiru]

We men have it so easy that letting women take advantage of us with rape accusations and pregnancies is a fair trade for our ability to walk on water and live like Tony Soprano 24/7. And if you have a penis you can't deny it because male privelege articles I posted on Facebook.

 

My boss is a woman and I had a dream where elves tied me to the ground, stole my penis and hid it in a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. My shrink tells me it means I'm gay but I don't know who to believe. Him, or the dolphin wearing a cowboy hat that lives in a kiddie pool in my attic.

[Hugh Mughnus]

We men have it so easy that letting women take advantage of us with rape accusations and pregnancies is a fair trade for our ability to walk on water and live like Tony Soprano 24/7. And if you have a penis you can't deny it because male privelege articles I posted on Facebook.

 

My boss is a woman and I had a dream where elves tied me to the ground, stole my penis and hid it in a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. My shrink tells me it means I'm gay but I don't know who to believe. Him, or the dolphin wearing a cowboy hat that lives in a kiddie pool in my attic.

 

 

lol

[Root5]

Hilarious how people ignore anything written with a slightly offputting tone even though the arguments themselves are well founded in fact

 

Who gives a fuck about tone, address the arguments not the arguer.

 

It literally does not matter at all what other threads I have made or what my personal opinions on the topic are - all that matters is the evidence/arguments presented. View each post made by everyone in a discussion as anonymous and unrelated to all other posts or you are implicitly ad hominem'ing

 

Unfortunately tone is usually more important than content. People are adversarial by nature, and often find themselves arguing positions they don't believe in, just because the situation is framed as a competition. When people are arguing, they want to win, not find the truth. This is heightened when the argument falls across political groups, or racial groups, or gender. So, if you actually want to make people take certain issues more seriously, like prison rape for instance, you shouldn't frame it as a competition. Tone does matter.

 

I do try to see beyond that though, and I did address your arguments, not your tone. I mentioned your tone only as advice for how you could make yourself more convincing to people. Everything else I said was specifically about your arguments.

 

if you are a complete idiot, people will take that into account the next time you say something.

 

Also, if you build up a terrible reputation, people won't want to be associated with you.

 

From the 'gender issues' thread

 

 

 

 

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

 

so Zeff, I don't have faith in your thoughts on rape

 

I do think prison rape is not taken seriously enough, either because it's funny (prison rape jokes can be pretty funny), or because we write off criminals because of their crimes, or we feel less empathy towards male victims in certain situations, or some combination of these elements. Also men can be the victims of rape outside of prison, obviously, and since they are the the archetypal rape victims, they might face some unique challenges, like feeling their experience is completely invisible.

 

But again, here's an example how tone and framing a conversation matters. Why should taking rape of men seriously be at odds with taking rape against women seriously. If a conversation gets into a competition of which group gets raped more, or worse, then it's already a train wreck. There's no personal victory if your gender happens to get raped more than the other gender.

[Guest isaki]

nuke Cosby

[YO303]

someone should do a campaign like this but with cosby

 

Edited October 30, 2014 by Deer

[Alcofribas]

#cancelthecosbyshow

[zlemflolia]

 

Hilarious how people ignore anything written with a slightly offputting tone even though the arguments themselves are well founded in fact

 

Who gives a fuck about tone, address the arguments not the arguer.

 

It literally does not matter at all what other threads I have made or what my personal opinions on the topic are - all that matters is the evidence/arguments presented. View each post made by everyone in a discussion as anonymous and unrelated to all other posts or you are implicitly ad hominem'ing

 

Unfortunately tone is usually more important than content. People are adversarial by nature, and often find themselves arguing positions they don't believe in, just because the situation is framed as a competition. When people are arguing, they want to win, not find the truth. This is heightened when the argument falls across political groups, or racial groups, or gender. So, if you actually want to make people take certain issues more seriously, like prison rape for instance, you shouldn't frame it as a competition. Tone does matter.

 

I do try to see beyond that though, and I did address your arguments, not your tone. I mentioned your tone only as advice for how you could make yourself more convincing to people. Everything else I said was specifically about your arguments.

 

if you are a complete idiot, people will take that into account the next time you say something.

 

Also, if you build up a terrible reputation, people won't want to be associated with you.

 

From the 'gender issues' thread

 

 

 

 

Rape against men is a more serious problem

 

In just about every country men are raped in greater percentages than women are

 

 

so Zeff, I don't have faith in your thoughts on rape

 

I do think prison rape is not taken seriously enough, either because it's funny (prison rape jokes can be pretty funny), or because we write off criminals because of their crimes, or we feel less empathy towards male victims in certain situations, or some combination of these elements. Also men can be the victims of rape outside of prison, obviously, and since they are the the archetypal rape victims, they might face some unique challenges, like feeling their experience is completely invisible.

 

But again, here's an example how tone and framing a conversation matters. Why should taking rape of men seriously be at odds with taking rape against women seriously. If a conversation gets into a competition of which group gets raped more, or worse, then it's already a train wreck. There's no personal victory if your gender happens to get raped more than the other gender.

 

 

You're about the only one having a reasonable discussion in this thread

 

Rape of males is downplayed by hardcore feminists because it is at odds with their "rape culture as evidence of female oppression etc" viewpoint where females are constantly raped and rape of females is acceptable, and this is evidence of patriarchy (or whatever their current stance is). They can't admit the reality is that males are raped in similar numbers, if not more often than females (despite it being in prison) because it directly contradicts the conclusions they try to draw from the data (oppression of women)

 

They say the numbers on rape are downplayed since many female victims don't want to come out and I believe that, but it's irrational to not agree that it is even harder for males to come out, especially if they were raped by another male.

 

The only rape culture is that of the rape of males being completely ignored by society.

[Alcofribas]

can you please explain how a higher number of males raped by males than females raped by males "directly contradicts" the fact that women are oppressed?

 

furthermore, does it not occur to you that the example of prison rape is highly problematic for a variety of reasons? for instance, the reason the numbers of male victims of this kind of abuse are so high is bc...there are no women there. and prison is of course...uh, populated by criminals...

 

it seems that you're not really trying very hard on this issue and are just bringing up the same weak arguments that people carefully addressed and countered in the other thread. tbh, it really seems like you don't give a fuck about rape at all -- you're not bringing up the male victims out of concern for them so much as you're trying to delegitimize female victims.

[zlemflolia]

can you please explain how a higher number of males raped by males than females raped by males "directly contradicts" the fact that women are oppressed?

 

furthermore, does it not occur to you that the example of prison rape is highly problematic for a variety of reasons? for instance, the reason the numbers of male victims of this kind of abuse are so high is bc...there are no women there. and prison is of course...uh, populated by criminals...

 

it seems that you're not really trying very hard on this issue and are just bringing up the same weak arguments that people carefully addressed and countered in the other thread. tbh, it really seems like you don't give a fuck about rape at all -- you're not bringing up the male victims out of concern for them so much as you're trying to delegitimize female victims.

 

"Women don't matter to society, that's why nobody cares about it when they're raped!"

-No, look men are raped just as much if not more and society cares even less!

 

"Rape of women isn't cared about because women are supposed to be powerless and men are supposed to be empowered by patriarchy"

-No, men are cared about less when they are raped. They are ridiculed nearly across the board

 

I'm just sick of feminists saying "rape is horrible and I want to work towards stopping it" then completely ignoring the existence of male victims of rape, especially when a woman did the raping.

 

"Women are the oppressed sex that is why when they are raped nobody cares" makes no sense if you take into account the fact that men are cared about even less (if at all) when they are raped. That is the issue

 

 

People in this very thread laugh at the idea that men can be raped, that is the issue.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Zeffolia

[zlemflolia]

And let's pretend like I am trying to delegitimize female rape victims. In fact let's pretend like I support rape and I want it to happen to every woman, every day of the week, multiple times

 

This does not affect the truth of what I am saying in any way if so.

[Root5]

I think maybe you had some personal conversations that spiralled out of control, likely because of tone.

 

If you encounter a feminist who disregards male victims of rape, that is not someone you need to take seriously, and someone who is giving a bad name to feminism.

 

Rape culture is a nebulous concept, and I think a lot of silly things are said about it. But you are zeroing in on one particular silly thing, and using it to represent the entire concept, which I don't think is fair.

 

From my experience, feminists are perfectly capable of applying their advocacy for rape victims to male victims as well. You clearly care very much about male victims... and presumably you can apply that empathy to female victims as well, who may have found themselves in a vulnerable position, not because of the prison environment, but because of the dangerous environment they live in every day.

Shit, this is the first time I got roped into one of these culture war watmm threads. I'm out.

[Hugh Mughnus]

I think maybe you had some personal conversations that spiralled out of control, likely because of tone.

 

If you encounter a feminist who disregards male victims of rape, that is not someone you need to take seriously, and someone who is giving a bad name to feminism.

 

Rape culture is a nebulous concept, and I think a lot of silly things are said about it. But you are zeroing in on one particular silly thing, and using it to represent the entire concept, which I don't think is fair.

 

From my experience, feminists are perfectly capable of applying their advocacy for rape victims to male victims as well. You clearly care very much about male victims... and presumably you can apply that empathy to female victims as well, who may have found themselves in a vulnerable position, not because of the prison environment, but because of the dangerous environment they live in every day.

Hey I have no side in this particular conversation....

 

but from my experience, "feminists" are not capable of anything other than feminism. They are "feminists" just like racists are "racists", they are extremely one sided and incapable of applying their thoughts and methodology to anything other than feminism.....

Feminism is just as garbage as racism, sexism, and any other "ism" you can come up with.

[Alcofribas]

@ zeff: the truth of what you're saying is consistently undermined by your willingness to adhere to pathetic straw men arguments about "feminism and by your constant emphasis on the bad seeds in a serious issue. and prolly a bunch of other reasons lel

 

but I just read that other thread and since you're basically making identical points to the ones you made there i personally have no reason to pick up this debate again.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Alcofribas

[Alcofribas]

I think maybe you had some personal conversations that spiralled out of control, likely because of tone.

 

If you encounter a feminist who disregards male victims of rape, that is not someone you need to take seriously, and someone who is giving a bad name to feminism.

 

Rape culture is a nebulous concept, and I think a lot of silly things are said about it. But you are zeroing in on one particular silly thing, and using it to represent the entire concept, which I don't think is fair.

 

From my experience, feminists are perfectly capable of applying their advocacy for rape victims to male victims as well. You clearly care very much about male victims... and presumably you can apply that empathy to female victims as well, who may have found themselves in a vulnerable position, not because of the prison environment, but because of the dangerous environment they live in every day.

Shit, this is the first time I got roped into one of these culture war watmm threads. I'm out.

also, this is a perfectly reasonable and nice post thanks!

[zlemflolia]

I fully apply that empathy to female victims but I am simply sick of the lack of empathy for male victims of, well, everything. High workplace mortality rates, suicide rates, assault victimization rates, low life expectancy compared to women (biological admittedly)

 

None of this is ever acknowledged.

 

In the US we have a Violence Against Women Act despite the fact that men are, what, like 10+ times as likely to be the victims of all forms of assault? When is this ever acknowledged? Why wasn't it named the Violence Against People Act?

 

Oh yeah, because everyone cares so much more when women are the victims of absolutely anything

 

Watch this video. Yeah it's anecdotal but we all know it's accurate

 

 

Man pushing his girlfriend around - people get fucking angry and someone even comes up and yells at him to stop

Woman pushing her boyfriend around (even more violently than he was touching her I might add) - people literally sit there and snicker and laugh

 

 

It is absolutely fucking ridiculous to assert that men are the oppressors, and women are the oppressed within western society.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Zeffolia

[zlemflolia]

They just apply these double standards and it's sickening

 

"Oh those men are in jail, it doesn't matter if they get raped - they deserve it for their crimes, it's just part of the punishment. Don't drop the soap LOL"

 

But would they agree with someone saying "Oh well we should mix men and women's prisons and let the men rape the female inmates! It doesn't matter when criminals are raped! Don't drop the soap women LOL"

 

Fuck no they wouldn't. Because it's fucking disgusting and atrocious and horrible. But men are the punching bags of society for those things - they have always been sent to war and their deaths have never meant much in comparison to those of women.

 

Men who don't shield nearby women from assault are ridiculed as pathetic wimps.

Women who don't shield nearby men are just women

Edited October 30, 2014 by Zeffolia

[zlemflolia]

So saying to not be overzealous about this is offensive to the rights of men. They have had their rights trampled on since the beginning of time and nobody acknowledges it. Even now we focus on women's issues even though the issues facing men are a million fucking times worse throughout the world. Let's be fucking realistic, they always have been. Drafted into war vs being oppressed and forced into the role of a homemaker with an apron, what would any non-retarded human being choose?

 

People are just emotional when it comes to women so they focus more on their issues and ignore men's

Edited October 30, 2014 by Zeffolia

[goDel]

People in this very thread laugh at the idea that men can be raped, that is the issue.

 

Personally, I only laugh at your argument. And I'm not sure who you think is laughing at the idea that men can be raped. So, i'd be very happy if you can be specific about who you think....etc

 

I do think it's obvious your argument lives by the sake of self-fabricated generalisations. "People in this very thread think..." Is an example. Or your point about feminists and the way they address man rape, in your eyes, is another fine example.

 

I understand it helps your argument to aim for some generalised group of people. But I also hope you understand that just aiming stuff at some heterogenous group as if it is homogenous... Well that's hardly convincing anyone (to the point of being laughable...i've basically just admitted). Regardless of the seriousness of the issue that's discussed about. Reason being that those generalisations make sure that the issue becomes irrelevant, but the generalised group of people does. (And that's also why you set yourself up for some ad hominem attacks directed to yourself btw)

So, do i think there are people who can be labelled as feminists who dont take man rape seriously? Sure. Are there people who don't consider themselves feminists and who don't take man rape seriously? Off course. Ironically, I suspect that this last group is bigger (absolute AND relatively), because feminism tends to be about sexual equality (it is, but you know, it's difficult to make such a generalised statement, and people tend to invent their own stuff but see it is feminism anyways). And equality tends to go both ways. I personally have seen plenty of people who consider themselves feminist arguing that point.

 

Can we go back to Cosby now? I'm still wondering why a group of women have come out with a book to publically tell their story, but they haven't gone to court. There were 14 women, right? I'm sure they would be taken seriously in court...but why why why...etc

[Candiru]

Because he didn't do it.

[usagi]

nooo penis, no rape

[goDel]

Lesbians raping women? And have we discussed about the seriousness of rape in female prisons yet? I personally think it's horrible that some generalised group of people don't think the issue of rape in female prisons is a seriouss issue. Seeing that its less discussed i consider it way more serious than man rape in prison!

 

 

....

 

Badumtshh

[zlemflolia]

Lesbians raping women? And have we discussed about the seriousness of rape in female prisons yet? I personally think it's horrible that some generalised group of people don't think the issue of rape in female prisons is a seriouss issue. Seeing that its less discussed i consider it way more serious than man rape in prison!

 

 

....

 

Badumtshh

lol

lol

lol

such a good representation of my argument

[eugene]

that men suffering you're talking about is very real imo, the so called masculine "no losers allowed" culture is disgusting and causes a lot of suffering to men i believe (todd solondz the director kinda deals with it in his films), i'd even go and say that a boy would suffer more from a rape than a girl because of all the expectation from men to stand for themselves and, well, be a "man" and not a "faggot" in addition to the harm from actual assault. but why the fuck do you always present those things as a zero sum game? as if people caring for women are unable to see man issues. that man rights thing you're bringing in constantly seems likes it's more interested in attacking feminists than dealing with actual man issues. maybe it's a reaction to this nutty type of feminism (not even sure it's right to call it that way) that strives for women domination over man? but that group is really negligible.

Edited October 30, 2014 by eugene

[triachus]

nooo penis, no rape

 

 

 

*deja vu*