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Rubin Farr

How does the World view America these days?

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yeah, still missing the point. extremism is a vaguer term that does not have the same connotation as terrorism, and as far as I can see no one's using that term to describe these shootings. the "t-word" is a uniquely dirty word reserved for ideological opponents. the perception is shifting slowly but the general public has still not fully not wrapped their heads around the fact that people who they would normally think are "on their side" ideologically, or an ordinary part of their society in other words, are the ones to watch out for in terms of committing "terrorist" acts. that is the point I was making, though stating it clearly up front apparently wasn't enough for you to not read it wrong and take a lame potshot.

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texas governor appears to call it a hate crime. to me the thing about terrorism is there's some kind of organisation behind it with a specific goal. and in this aspect there is some difference. whether or not these massacres should be called an act of terrorism, i'm really not sure. to me it would be an obvious yes if there was some kind of organisation behind it. it doesn't look like there is. is it right to call this a hate crime instead? well, to me this is largely an academic discussion and i don't have any stake in it. if you've got good reasons to call this a terrorist attack, you have my blessings.

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Leave it up to Usagi to equate a 4chan latino obsessed loser who decided to shoot up a Walmart with literal terror cells.

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14 minutes ago, goDel said:

texas governor appears to call it a hate crime. to me the thing about terrorism is there's some kind of organisation behind it with a specific goal. and in this aspect there is some difference. whether or not these massacres should be called an act of terrorism, i'm really not sure. to me it would be an obvious yes if there was some kind of organisation behind it. it doesn't look like there is. is it right to call this a hate crime instead? well, to me this is largely an academic discussion and i don't have any stake in it. if you've got good reasons to call this a terrorist attack, you have my blessings.

Well, there are white nationalist organisations that might be the reason those losers did the shooting even if they weren't really part of a terror cell. In that sense they turn themselves into the extended arm of these organisations which isn't unwanted by same. I don't think that speaking of terror is wrong here

Edited by darreichungsform
*terrorism
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The El Paso shooter has just been charged with Domestic Terrorism

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The only prerequisite to be a terrorist is that you inflict terror on people. That's all. It doesn't matter if there is an organization or not. The Oklahoma City bombing back in the 90s was frequently called terrorism.

The narrative for what constitutes as terrorism changed around 2001 for obvious reasons.

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7 hours ago, maitake said:

Leave it up to Usagi to equate a 4chan latino obsessed loser who decided to shoot up a Walmart with literal terror cells.

that's exactly the point, dickhead. it's terrorism, whether it's an organised terror cell driven by bad ideology or a crazy lone shooter driven by bad ideology. (actually the only real common factor is the use of "terror" as Braintree suggested, but let's not open up that can of worms with Mr Comprehension here)

on the one hand you insinuate that the two things so different they're not on the same level so I must be wrong, and on the other hand you post a lame news search result to suggest that news outlets really are putting the two things on the same level (even though half of them take the tone of "should we finally put these on the same level?") so I must be wrong. pick an argument instead of trying by whatever conflicted means you can to prove me wrong and cover up the fact that you just read my initial post wrong and reacted stupidly.

actually don't do that, quit wasting my time.

Edited by usagi

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It's not just terrorism, but white terrorism. Carried out by pasty incels who frequent 4chan, take racist jokes for gospel, and jerk off to anime girls. Because 4chan is now an indirect threat to innocent people, it might as well be a terrorist organization. And I'm being sincere about this,

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12 minutes ago, ambergonk said:

It's not just terrorism, but white terrorism. Carried out by pasty incels who frequent 4chan, take racist jokes for gospel, and jerk off to anime girls. Because 4chan is now an indirect threat to innocent people, it might as well be a terrorist organization. And I'm being sincere about this,

the tremendous amount of overlap grey area between what you're describing and literally the rest of the internet is where things get tricky ... but i agree with you here. 

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I live in the US and open carry is an alien concept to me. Gun ownership is in general, really.

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Interesting piece in NYT on 8chan. Interview with its founder (who isn't currently involved anymore).

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/04/technology/8chan-shooting-manifesto.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage&login=email&auth=login-email

Quote

“Whenever I hear about a mass shooting, I say, ‘All right, we have to research if there’s an 8chan connection,’” he said about the online message board he started in 2013.

It didn’t take him long to find one.

 

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Does anyone here really think gun control is going to solve this problem? 

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How about rephrasing your question to: will gun control have a positive impact on this problem?

Instead of "solve". This way, you'll have an obvious yes. It's not going to be negative. And yes, there will be some positive impact. You may question how big. But in the end, it's just silly to "solve" it with one single change in the laws. Or one specific policy. Doesn't work like that, does it? But that shouldn't stop you from doing something. As part of a package.

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2 hours ago, marf said:

Does anyone here really think gun control is going to solve this problem? 

be more vague

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3 hours ago, marf said:

Does anyone here really think gun control is going to solve this problem? 

yes. as if limiting access to assault weapons is not an obvious (part of an) answer to the problem.

whether you can enact and enforce effective gun control given all the bullshit you will have to deal with from 2A dickheads and the gun industry is another question.

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regarding gun control... the current situation is useless. there is no universal gun law. each state does what it wants. people drive form NYC or chicago to south carolina and make 'straw man' purchases for handguns.. buying 20 30.. 50 guns then going back to the cities and selling them on the street.  there is an expo center.. big hall where they have all kinds of events.. just about 1.5 miles from my house.. all summer every other week there's guns shows. anyone can walk in there.. buy a gun and leave. the gun shows aren't subject to the same laws as gun shops. it's different in every state..  my friend bought a handgun and took home same day from a gun show. 

there is no database of gun owners at the federal level. the mess of laws and lack of regulations make it impossible for federal agencies to track data and have investigations into things like gun running, illegal sales, state to state traffic.. etc etc..  it's a joke. 

if they had universal back ground checks, one set of federal laws to handle registration, a database etc it would make things way simpler and more efficient for law enforcement.  obviously, assault weapons ban, gun modification controls, no more high round magazines etc etc.. 

there's tons of things that can be done to reduce access to guns and reduce gun deaths.  practical things. not to mention the other side of this in figuring out liability for gun deaths.. gun insurance.. licenses etc. 

are there other problems? of course. USA is a weird culture and very self centered in the world. the fear of outsiders "taking what i have" is buried deep inside a lot of people. 

the discussion needs to be had in congress. something needs to be ironed out.. a start. we can't just say "oh no it's too complicated we can't do anything" or nothing will change. 

btw, the 'good guy w/a gun is the only thing to stop a bad guy w/a gun' argument is dumb. the guy in akron killed 9 people and injured how many? in under 1 minute. the police were there in 1 minute. 

Edited by ignatius
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Gun control is only part of the solution. You see, our generation was prepared for adulthood like it was going to be as easy as it was for Gen X or the boomers. Our lives are delayed much, much more than theirs thanks to endless debt. I paid off all my loans and life still feels empty, hopeless, and unenjoyable.  

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On 8/5/2019 at 6:54 PM, ignatius said:

 

"A Montana man allegedly slammed a boy’s head to the ground at a county fair because the 13-year-old kept his hat on during the national anthem, a witness told local news outlets." https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/06/man-assaulted-year-old-because-he-was-disrespecting-national-anthem-witness-says/

Edited by doublename

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On 8/5/2019 at 11:39 PM, ignatius said:

are there other problems? of course. USA is a weird culture and very self centered in the world. the fear of outsiders "taking what i have" is buried deep inside a lot of people.

To me, this is the root problem. From federalism/states'-rights to the 2-party system to filter bubbles, the us-versus-them attitude is so deeply ingrained in American culture. It's not just closed-borders immigrant xenophobia and racism but it's also hating your neighbor for the signs in their window/yard.

It's kind of a mindfuck, too, because when you accuse someone else of it, you really become guilty of it yourself. There isn't real grownup dialog anymore, just endless drawing and defending lines in the sand. And violence.

We're all planting the seeds.

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I don't think that's a fair assessment of American culture (saying this as a European, btw). That "great replacement" theory came from a French writer, for instance. And just like in the US, nationalism - or white nationalism if you will - is very much part of the European dialogue as well. See the Brexit discussion. Keeping foreigners out of the UK played a large part.

O, and btw, Norway had it's Breivik in 2012. And New-Zealand earlier this year. Are Norways culture and New Zealands culture also to blame?

Of course, the US is responsible to stop its domestic terrorism. But I don't think the solution is a cultural one. And goes beyond 2nd amendment issues, for instance.

To put this problem on the shoulders of the US or its culture seems product of a misunderstanding of the problem, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, part of US culture used to be pragmatism and ambition. The US put men on the moon, remember?

Currently, there's more a political problem which keeps the US from going forward. But now that Trump is in office, the population seems to have woken up and have become more politically involved. Things might actually move forward this time around. People should stalk their governors and senators for a bit.

Edited by goDel
because reasons
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2 hours ago, doublename said:

"A Montana man allegedly slammed a boy’s head to the ground at a county fair because the 13-year-old kept his hat on during the national anthem, a witness told local news outlets." https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/06/man-assaulted-year-old-because-he-was-disrespecting-national-anthem-witness-says/

in the 90s there was an art exhibit where the artist had a guest book for the exhibit and to get to the book to sign it you had to walk across the american flag that was spread out on the floor in front of it.  a guy and his kid made a big show of picking up the flag and folding it properly. i think they got arrested. i can't recall.  

slamming a 13 yr old's head on the ground is insane. that guy hopefully goes to jail.. gets sued or something. that's fucked. i'm surprised a huge fight didn't break out. 

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everything is because masculinity is threatened. 

https://pcmdnews.com/university-professor-men-dont-recycle-because-they-dont-want-people-thinking-theyre-gay/

According to Penn State professor of psychology Janet K. Swim, men can be unwilling to perform environmentally friendly tasks if they perceive them as ‘gendered’, such as using reusable shopping bags.

The fear seemed to be that if men were to engage in these allegedly gender nonconforming tasks, other people might think they’re gay.

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