How does the World view America these days?

[usagi]

3 minutes ago, ignatius said:

this is exactly how employers get people over a barrel. "think of your patients" 

"think of the customers who need sandwiches!"

"I'm going to need you to work double overtime tonight while i stay home and have dinner with my family"

how far do you want to go w/it? "you have patients.. you can't leave until they recover or die... never mind that we treat you like shit and won't let you form a union and can fire you at anytime we please.. but you can't quit"

split the moral hair fibers all you want. it's bullshit. there's other nurses. if the hospital can't care for X amount of patients because of staff issues then they should go to other hospitals"

there is a huge difference between patients in hospital beds and bloody sandwiches. come on. the onus is on the individual to understand the impact that quitting their job makes in a macro sense, between something that has minimal impact on society (making sandwiches) versus something far more crucial (healthcare). not all situations demand the same kind of action.

look, I recognise that conditions in the US are uniquely shitty and different and maybe I am speaking from a position of relative privilege in Australia. and you gotta start somewhere I guess. but I am determined not to lose balance on these topics, which is what always happens in herd-driven situations. people aren't looking at the problem from enough different perspectives or playing devil's advocate enough to test the boundaries of their proposed solution, which makes for a weak solution.

[zlemflolia]

6 minutes ago, usagi said:

there is a huge difference between patients in hospital beds and bloody sandwiches. come on. the onus is on the individual to understand the impact that quitting their job makes in a macro sense, between something that has minimal impact on society (making sandwiches) versus something far more crucial (healthcare). not all situations demand the same kind of action.

look, I recognise that conditions in the US are uniquely shitty and different and maybe I am speaking from a position of relative privilege in Australia. and you gotta start somewhere I guess. but I am determined not to lose balance on these topics, which is what always happens in herd-driven situations. people aren't looking at the problem from enough different perspectives or playing devil's advocate enough to test the boundaries of their proposed solution, which makes for a weak solution.

states of emergency exception are always used to clamp down on workers rights. these narratives must be resisted.  if losing 7 workers over horrible and life threatening working conditions is enough to shut down the hospital, clearly the issue started earlier, in the executive board room, when they cut resources and closed down the rest of the hospitals in the nearby vicinity.  yeah, it's bad here.

[chenGOD]

5 minutes ago, usagi said:

alright then, that's that one case. as I said, without knowing more specific details I wasn't coming down on one side or the other in that specific case, I was just expressing a concern about the patients (i.e. the purpose of the work, what is important to society) in the spat between employee and employer. if no lives are lost in the shuffle, I'm not bothered that the workers left and the injunction was dismissed.

but do you get what I am driving at behind all this? the problem is much bigger than anything that is currently being addressed or proposed. work is fundamental to the functioning of society, and the purpose of it, what it serves for society, should not be trampled on in a rush for shortsighted changes.

I think the sensationalist antiwork posts suck a lot of air out of the room, so if you only go there from r/all you (not you specifically) can miss a lot of the other less egregious ones which are along the lines of "left for a different job that offers decent pay/benefits/work-life balance etc." Or posts like this one that show what a decent company should be offering.

Not disagreeing with you that work is fundamental to our society (until we live in a post-scarcity model where everything is fuelled from pure renewables and nanobots will build whatever we need out of the appropriate nano-material), but I don't think there's a whole lot of trampling going on - r/antiwork may be very vocal, but they have 1.7M subscribers. Even if we don't assume half of those are bots, a third of those remaining are foreign actors conducting interference, another third are edgy teenagers who have never had a job, 1.7M people is a tiny percentage of the US labour force. The "great resignation" saw on average slightly higher than normal quitting rates (I suspect that many of those were people who were near enough to retirement already, I haven't looked at the demographics that closely), but in the service industry (food and retail) the resignation rates were significantly higher - which should come as no surprise to anyone with the slightest familiarity with the service industry in the US.

 

[usagi]

fair. and I'm not even positing the subreddit as the whole problem, I would just like to see people having a sensible and balanced discussion around "work" and what good "work" should be.

I believe the majority of the overheated types jumping on this bandwagon rn are people who would reverse or water down their position if they ever sat on the other side of a negotiating desk or were employers/business owners themselves (nb. I am none of these things, so don't assume I am speaking from that side of the fence). most people don't have the spine to actually commit to values or ideals that would not work for them if they were in power. the problem is much thornier than people realise and there is no easy or universal fix for it. consider that an antiwork-inspired revolution in the US might lead to an improved US situation but it almost certainly couldn't be transposed to anywhere else in the world. how do these people propose to fix working conditions in Asian sweatshops for example, which are propped up by their own (western) demand?

[ignatius]

39 minutes ago, usagi said:

there is a huge difference between patients in hospital beds and bloody sandwiches. come on. the onus is on the individual to understand the impact that quitting their job makes in a macro sense, between something that has minimal impact on society (making sandwiches) versus something far more crucial (healthcare). not all situations demand the same kind of action.

look, I recognise that conditions in the US are uniquely shitty and different and maybe I am speaking from a position of relative privilege in Australia. and you gotta start somewhere I guess. but I am determined not to lose balance on these topics, which is what always happens in herd-driven situations. people aren't looking at the problem from enough different perspectives or playing devil's advocate enough to test the boundaries of their proposed solution, which makes for a weak solution.

i don't see everything in black and white.  but as stated.. the hospital could've done this differently or just not been shitty to start with and there are other hospitals. patients can be transferred. it's not like there aren't solutions. the hospital just wanted it to be its way or the highway. 

it's an interesting thing to speak to healthcare workers in america even in non-pandemic times. in portland, which is a mid sized city, there are 3 or 4 large healthcare/hospital systems. turnover for staff varies but seems to be a constant. i've spoken to enough nurses in the last few years to know that many only stay at a place for a few years and move on. that's pre-pandemic. it's an even more difficult job now. also, there's hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of staff in these systems and individual hospitals..  7 healthcare workers wouldn't cripple a hospital. sure, maybe in certain departments with certain qualifications it's gonna be a crunch.. respiratory therapists etc but as said.. there are other hospitals.. patients can be moved. that happens all the time anyways. 

states can also reach out to the federal government for support which has happened a few times during the pandemic. national guard.armed forces sent medical staff to add support to hospitals in different places. i think it happened here in oregon. 

it's not like the hospital was going out of business and everyone was walking off the job leaving patients hooked up to IVs. it's just that 7 people found better jobs with better pay and better conditions. being told by a judge that they can't leave is a major over reach imo. there was no contract broken by the staff when they found other jobs.  

 

[chenGOD]

28 minutes ago, usagi said:

how do these people propose to fix working conditions in Asian sweatshops for example, which are propped up by their own (western) demand?

We just implement perfect communism on a global scale instantaneously. Simple, innit, comrade.

[zlemflolia]

16 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

We just implement perfect communism on a global scale instantaneously. Simple, innit, comrade.

don't know what kind of straw man this post is meant to represent, but communists support third world revolutions regardless of first world consequences.

[ignatius]

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

We just implement perfect communism on a global scale instantaneously. Simple, innit, comrade.

"If we remove Saddam Hussein Iraqis will embrace democracy and it'll be paradise" 

really though. none of this is going to happen.. i mean.. some socialism might happen in america after it goes fascist in time for the ultimate doomsday climate collapse cumming event that half the country seems to want.. but then maybe after the survivors decide that individualism sucks for humanity and something more collective would work better.. then maybe the fish people will allow the land walkers to coexist in crypto free money cumminism... but not before then. 

[chenGOD]

24 minutes ago, ignatius said:

the fish people

my money is on the crab people.

[milkface]

10 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Isn't that what r/communism, r/Marxism, and r/socialism are for? Given your hilarious joke, why would you expect that particular subreddit to educate people about communism?

Because r/antiwork complains about the problem and rejects all the solutions to the problem. Hence why they are nothing but terminally online liberals.

10 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Yeah what could possibly go wrong from extremist views.

Also... you're not an extremist? If I recall correctly the USA (controlled by "not extremist" Dems/Reps) have comitted some insane atrocities across the world since the end of WW2 in the name of profit and ideology.

[milkface]

Not even just the USA - many other liberal/centrist first world countries have committed awful acts over the last centuries and it's still ongoing. Defending the status quo to avoid being an "extremist" is propping up a system where wars are generated for profit, where 25,000 people die of hunger every day, where our planet and its ecosystems are being bled dry by a system that is based upon infinite growth in a finite world. How are you an extremist for wanting to put an end to the greed, hunger, war and ecological destruction that is happening before our very eyes?

How about when the non-extremist nations that make up NATO bombed the great man made river in Libya in 2011 which 70% of Libyans rely on for clean water to survive?

Edited January 25, 2022 by milkface

[chenGOD]

Civil war in Idaho....among Republicans?

[zlemflolia]

15 hours ago, usagi said:

there is a huge difference between patients in hospital beds and bloody sandwiches. come on. the onus is on the individual to understand the impact that quitting their job makes in a macro sense, between something that has minimal impact on society (making sandwiches) versus something far more crucial (healthcare). not all situations demand the same kind of action.

look, I recognise that conditions in the US are uniquely shitty and different and maybe I am speaking from a position of relative privilege in Australia. and you gotta start somewhere I guess. but I am determined not to lose balance on these topics, which is what always happens in herd-driven situations. people aren't looking at the problem from enough different perspectives or playing devil's advocate enough to test the boundaries of their proposed solution, which makes for a weak solution.

you can't support upholding capitalism, a system of individualized and exploitative wage slavery contracts, while also upholding "personal responsibility on the job"

>All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind. -Marx

Doctors and nurses aren't holy under capitalism, they aren't treated with basic human dignity.  stop shilling for the owning class.  your choice of who you criticize says everything about your priorities.  how about you criticize the hospital administration for not giving in to the righteous demands of the workers?  no, your focus is criticizing the workers.  you are acting as a class enemy

Edited January 25, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[zlemflolia]

5 hours ago, milkface said:

Because r/antiwork complains about the problem and rejects all the solutions to the problem. Hence why they are nothing but terminally online liberals.

Also... you're not an extremist? If I recall correctly the USA (controlled by "not extremist" Dems/Reps) have comitted some insane atrocities across the world since the end of WW2 in the name of profit and ideology.

capitalism is a very much extremist ideology.  centrists calling socialism extremist are just right wingers defending the status quo.  capitalism was a radical, very extreme, violent revolution.  and it's continuing.  we need to put an end to it and have a people's revolution.

[ignatius]

7 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

capitalism is a very much extremist ideology.  centrists calling socialism extremist are just right wingers defending the status quo.  capitalism was a radical, very extreme, violent revolution.  and it's continuing.  we need to put an end to it and have a people's revolution.

without a doubt absolutely true. the turn to capitalism was met with resistance. peasant wars.. the enclosures.. all kinds of mass uprisings against church and state.  people considered a wage to be an insult and worse than slavery.. when previously they were living off the land that they were subsequently denied access to. 

[chenGOD]

39 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

centrists calling socialism extremist

Socialism isn't extremist. The attempted silencing of other voices on the other hand....

 

32 minutes ago, ignatius said:

the enclosures

I wrote a stupid paper about enclosures. While I do agree there was resistance to the enclosures, there was also a variety of responses. As well, enclosures led to urbanization - which has been done poorly in North America in particular, but the only way we are supporting life on this planet without totally fucking the environment is through urbanization and increased population density.

Change always brings resistance. Is that resistance always right?

The Tenant Farmer and his Economic Environs.pdf

[Nebraska]

 

[usagi]

cummunism gay

       - Kid Rock

[dcom]

Quote

Let me share something with you that you should know. Americans are stupid when it comes to money. Really, really, painfully stupid. I know they think they’re not. But you can’t have it both ways. Americans can’t be smart about money, and America also be a poor country now. It’s either/or, really, and no, there’s no grad-school, binary-busting way out of that dilemma.

I’m going to teach you how stupid Americans really are about money. Maybe I’ll even make your jaw drop a little, who knows. Either way, by the end of this essay, you’re going to have learned a few things you didn’t know, and you’re going to hate me more than you already do. Sigh. I live this every day — when some poor bastard like me comes along and tries to teach or give Americans something that might actually benefit them, something they need desperately, like money, they end up hating that guy, because in the American mind, nobody can ever really do anything nice for anyone else, and being the most violent a-hole wins. Don’t worry, you’re going to prove all that in about ten minutes.

How America Made Itself a Poor Country — But Still Doesn’t Understand Why (Umair Haque/Eudaimonia)

[zlemflolia]

28 minutes ago, dcom said:

How America Made Itself a Poor Country — But Still Doesn’t Understand Why (Umair Haque/Eudaimonia)

i can barely read this article which blames the working class of america for their own exploitation, how tone deaf of this author

>America’s poverty? It’s self-inflicted. Americans are stupid when it comes to money. Almost hopelessly stupid. And they have little to no idea how stupid they really are, because they’re the ones keeping themselves wilfully ignorant. Will that ever change?

hahahaha.  what the fuck is this nonsense.

Edited January 26, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[Nebraska]

8 hours ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

hahahaha.  what the fuck is this nonsense.

 

 

[ignatius]

 

[ignatius]

antiwork is now a private sub reddit. i was a member... 1 of 1.7 million.. and followed the sub. but they booted a bunch of people out i guess. idk. fckn drama. 

there's already another subreddit though. called workreform. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/

everything is dumb everywhere. 

[chronical]

On 1/25/2022 at 9:15 PM, Nebraska said:

 

fixed

[auxien]