French mag Charlie Hebdo attacked by gunmen, 12 dead

[goDel]

 

 

the point that the more a nation becomes a world power, the more something like military spending increases.

 

What!? WTF are you talking about?

 

If "world power" is about influence, you're basically saying influence is directly related to the amount of gunpower. In some medieval world perhaps. I would have hoped we were past this stage.

 

The whole idea behind a civilised society was that power could not be bought with a gun, right? Seeing that chart it's pretty obvious the amount of money the US spends is disproportionate to what the rest of the world spends, regardless of the amount of power/influence. And regardless of all the variables you put into play.

 

There's no way that in your example of China having as much power as the US, that it might be the case that China spends as much on defense. No way. For starters, there's all kinds of power (read: influence): economic power, technological power, to name a few. And these are hardly related to military power. Especially in a world where economic pressure is more effective than military pressure.

[Lane Visitor]

I just think that there are too many variables to draw a sweeping statement like "the U.S. is the evil empire" based on that graph... And i prob should have more casually proposed this rather than make it sound factual, but that that it would seem that military spending is more linked to world power index than "which-nation-is-the-most-evil" index.

[Lane Visitor]

Im not sure if this graph takes military aid and weapons exports into the numbers, but if so, wouldnt it also important to note how many much of that spending the U.S. uses for exports to other nations?

 

Also, im no economist, but just googled searched the top richest nations of all the super powers, and U.S. comes it at 17 some trillion, with China just below at 10 trillion, and the other world powers far below. If governments decide their military spending amounts based on percentages of total budget (which i assume most would?), wouldnt the U.S.'s spending in that graph really end up not being disproportionate?

[marf]

 

Makes my head spin

I don't like Sean Hannity but found his barking off a bit too pleasurable in this one. Is it just me, or does Cowdery come across like a textbook sociopath? The way he smirks and smiles all the time weirds me out. He'd never blow himself up or shoot someone probably, but he's perfectly content trying to convince other people to do it.

I also thought about how willing the imams and various fundamentalist leaders would be to strap on a suicide vest and blow themselves up for the cause as they encourage young people to do. I doubt they would do it. Not much different than our leaders who are fine in sending their young ones to fight and die in a dumb war.

 

 

 

there was a Vice show done on child suicide bombers. like 9, 10 year olds. they were told the bomb would go out from their body and not kill them.

[awepittance]

Lane Visitor's lack of historical context is quite disturbing

I also don't think he helps his case much by using so much barely coded racist language like 'barbarism'

reading StephenG's confession about being scared of terrorism was pretty interesting especially in the face of the extreme statistical unlikelihood. I think in a lot of ways that's the crux of what we as a free society are up against, how do we get reasonable people to stop being afraid of a non existent bogeyman?

[marf]

 

what you're seeing now is an "ideological" war, predicated on the grounds that just to the north-east of Iraq exists one of the largest petro-mineral fields on earth. If you think that isnt relevant the i honestly dont know how to reply other than you can take a horse to water,,,,,,

 

 

we could never meddle again. no country in the middles east having anything to do with US UK. Oil is all theirs.

As long as Israel exists there will be problems.

[manmower]

Lane Visitor's lack of historical context is quite disturbing

 

I also don't think he helps his case much by using so much barely coded racist language like 'barbarism'

He also seems to be doing just fine in your country where "it isn't socially acceptable to be openly racist".

[triachus]

how do we get reasonable people to stop being afraid of a non existent bogeyman?

[Adieu]

Lane Visitor's lack of historical context is quite disturbing

 

I also don't think he helps his case much by using so much barely coded racist language like 'barbarism'

 

reading StephenG's confession about being scared of terrorism was pretty interesting especially in the face of the extreme statistical unlikelihood. I think in a lot of ways that's the crux of what we as a free society are up against, how do we get reasonable people to stop being afraid of a non existent bogeyman?

 

How do we get everyone to realize that extending the reach of the state into everyone's lives doesn't make them any safer at all? That the idea of safety provided by the state is an illusion? And that the only way to diminish any kind of attacks throughout the world is by withdrawing from violent military operations? How do we make US citizens realize that the only way to dismantle radical and violent conservative power structures is by first dismantling the one that occupies our government?

[Perezvon]

how do we get reasonable people to stop being afraid of a non existent bogeyman?

by turning off the fucking tv

 

(gonna be hard)

[Lane Visitor]

 

[quote name="Lane Visitor" post="2270608" timestamp="

 

Official condemnation of the Iraq War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Official_condemnation

 

You should ask ASU for your money back, cause they did a shit job in teaching you about IR. I don't hold that everything is the West's fault, but trying to absolve the foreign policies of the US in the ME is pretty ridiculous. Obviously the US is not solely to blame, but their foreign policyin the middle east has been a long series of clusterfucks.

 

I know much of the world has condemned the Iraq war, but not to the point where the entire arab world, nor did any of Iraq's allies feel the need to respond with military strikes. Yes it was a war turned bad and was indeed a clusterfuck but to go as far as Jihadist claim, that it was a persecution of Muslims or a war on Islam is ridiculous.

 

And yes, of course the U.S. has made many mistakes and it's foreign policy is all over the place, and its definitely not black and white but I think it has, in the grand scheme of things, acted more out of good intention and effort than bad. Of course everyone will have their own opinion. It's just these sweeping cartoonish statements about the West/U.S. as being colonial warmongering evil empires BY DEFAULT that gets to me. I think there's something to be said about diversity of thought, politics, leadership, religion and complexity of culture in the U.S. and much of the west in that characterizing the U.S. as this static, 1-dimensional actor seems a little childish.

[Adieu]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

 

"President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

 

"And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

 

"Some observers also claim that America would be better off by cutting our losses and leaving Iraq now. This is a dangerous illusion, refuted with a simple question: Would the United States and other free nations be more safe, or less safe, with Zarqawi and Bin Laden in control of Iraq, its people, and its resources?" Mr Bush asked.

[chenGOD]

 

 

 

[quote name="Lane Visitor" post="2270608" timestamp="

 

Official condemnation of the Iraq War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Official_condemnation

 

You should ask ASU for your money back, cause they did a shit job in teaching you about IR. I don't hold that everything is the West's fault, but trying to absolve the foreign policies of the US in the ME is pretty ridiculous. Obviously the US is not solely to blame, but their foreign policyin the middle east has been a long series of clusterfucks.

 

I know much of the world has condemned the Iraq war, but not to the point where the entire arab world, nor did any of Iraq's allies feel the need to respond with military strikes. Yes it was a war turned bad and was indeed a clusterfuck but to go as far as Jihadist claim, that it was a persecution of Muslims or a war on Islam is ridiculous.

 

And yes, of course the U.S. has made many mistakes and it's foreign policy is all over the place, and its definitely not black and white but I think it has, in the grand scheme of things, acted more out of good intention and effort than bad. Of course everyone will have their own opinion. It's just these sweeping cartoonish statements about the West/U.S. as being colonial warmongering evil empires BY DEFAULT that gets to me. I think there's something to be said about diversity of thought, politics, leadership, religion and complexity of culture in the U.S. and much of the west in that characterizing the U.S. as this static, 1-dimensional actor seems a little childish.

 

With the above spending graph pointed out: do you not understand why nations would be very hesitant to try and strike against the US (if they have the capability to project force that far anyways, which many of them do not)? Unfortunately, power still comes from the barrel of a gun.

The idea of international relations is to move past that - something the US government has been loathe to understand, and it is the primary reason why the US foreign policy has not produced intended results.

[awepittance]

The funny thing about that long forgotten Bush 'god told me to do it' confession, is that any Christian at the time you would bring that up to would say "George Bush isn't a real christian"

 

 

how do we get reasonable people to stop being afraid of a non existent bogeyman?

 

for real dude, what I just said was totally batshit and deserving of an illuminati cartoon strip

[Lane Visitor]

Lane Visitor's lack of historical context is quite disturbing

 

I also don't think he helps his case much by using so much barely coded racist language like 'barbarism'

 

reading StephenG's confession about being scared of terrorism was pretty interesting especially in the face of the extreme statistical unlikelihood. I think in a lot of ways that's the crux of what we as a free society are up against, how do we get reasonable people to stop being afraid of a non existent bogeyman?

K cool, and i wasnt talking about the entire Arab/Muslim world-just the nations that are run by the most strict religious laws. How is it racist language to describe those certain societies in various places like Pakistan where women are not allowed equal rights, gays are hung and turning against your religion or insulting the prophet results in death, as barbaric?

 

Seriously man, that's a low blow. Would you not call those elements of that way of life barbarism?

 

Yeah, JE, I'm pretty dang sure you'd have no qualms using terms like "redneck middle america", "warmongering israel", "ruthless zionist lobby" etc, but now the word "barbaric" as it relates to impoverished authoritarian run middle eastern nations and the conditions theyre living in is somehow racist. I clearly indicated conditions of the region when i used the term barbaric/medieval age. Nice attack buddy. I never talked about Arabs or Muslims or even Islam in and of itself. Ya know what? That's the most absurd attack and use of race card Ive ever experienced (Ive never been called a racist before regardless and am known amongst ppl who know me as a truly tolerant person). The laws and regimes and leaderships of many nations in the middle east are still using the same barbaric (yes barbaric) practices in terms of punishment and suppression. If you want to call that racist language for pointing that out , haha you're living in straight up dreamland.

[xox]

usa spent last year over 600 billion dollars for military?! yeah, it must be for peace...

 

[cwmbrancity]

 

Lane Visitor's lack of historical context is quite disturbing

 

I also don't think he helps his case much by using so much barely coded racist language like 'barbarism'

 

reading StephenG's confession about being scared of terrorism was pretty interesting especially in the face of the extreme statistical unlikelihood. I think in a lot of ways that's the crux of what we as a free society are up against, how do we get reasonable people to stop being afraid of a non existent bogeyman?

 

How do we get everyone to realize that extending the reach of the state into everyone's lives doesn't make them any safer at all? That the idea of safety provided by the state is an illusion? And that the only way to diminish any kind of attacks throughout the world is by withdrawing from violent military operations? How do we make US citizens realize that the only way to dismantle radical and violent conservative power structures is by first dismantling the one that occupies our government?

 

 

qft

 

 

 

 

[quote name="Lane Visitor" post="2270608" timestamp="

 

Official condemnation of the Iraq War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Official_condemnation

 

You should ask ASU for your money back, cause they did a shit job in teaching you about IR. I don't hold that everything is the West's fault, but trying to absolve the foreign policies of the US in the ME is pretty ridiculous. Obviously the US is not solely to blame, but their foreign policyin the middle east has been a long series of clusterfucks.

 

I know much of the world has condemned the Iraq war, but not to the point where the entire arab world, nor did any of Iraq's allies feel the need to respond with military strikes. Yes it was a war turned bad and was indeed a clusterfuck but to go as far as Jihadist claim, that it was a persecution of Muslims or a war on Islam is ridiculous.

 

 

You say this from a position of privileged comfort while not ducking US-made bombs/ordinance and pretty much the entire Muslim world (remember that extends from Morocco to Malaysia) was aghast at what the US/UK fuck stains did in Iraq.

 

C'mon chap. Dick fuckin Cheney and Haliburton (sp?)? Privately contracted armies security firms? A civilian death-toll that is at god knows what levels by now? The whole WMD-bs plot? And then Tony B.liar gets a highly paid job as a middle east peace envoy????

 

The game is rigged. Markets are not free & US structural bias in global markets (aka US protectionism) means that smaller nations can not compete fairly.

 

The list is metaphorically endless......

[Adieu]

 

Lane Visitor's lack of historical context is quite disturbing

 

I also don't think he helps his case much by using so much barely coded racist language like 'barbarism'

 

reading StephenG's confession about being scared of terrorism was pretty interesting especially in the face of the extreme statistical unlikelihood. I think in a lot of ways that's the crux of what we as a free society are up against, how do we get reasonable people to stop being afraid of a non existent bogeyman?

K cool, and i wasnt talking about the entire Arab/Muslim world-just the nations that are run by the most strict religious laws. How is it racist language to describe those certain societies in various places like Pakistan where women are not allowed equal rights, gays are hung and turning against your religion or insulting the prophet results in death, as barbaric?

 

Seriously man, that's a low blow. Would you not call those elements of that way of life barbarism?

 

Yeah, JE, I'm pretty dang sure you'd have no qualms using terms like "redneck middle america", "warmongering israel", "ruthless zionist lobby" etc, but now the word "barbaric" as it relates to impoverished authoritarian run middle eastern nations and the conditions theyre living in is somehow racist. I clearly indicated conditions of the region when i used the term barbaric/medieval age. Nice attack buddy. I never talked about Arabs or Muslims or even Islam in and of itself. Ya know what? That's the most absurd attack and use of race card Ive ever experienced (Ive never been called a racist before regardless and am known amongst ppl who know me as a truly tolerant person). The laws and regimes and leaderships of many nations in the middle east are still using the same barbaric (yes barbaric) practices in terms of punishment and suppression. If you want to call that racist language for pointing that out , haha you are living in straight up dreamland.

 

 

The US government isn't barbaric?

 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/09/world/cia-torture-report-key-points.html?_r=0

 

Examples of torture and abuse of prisoners[edit]

• The CIA had force fed some prisoners orally and/or anally in order to establish “total control over the detainee.”^[26]
• The Committee found that "[a]t least five CIA detainees were subjected to 'rectal rehydration' or rectal feeding without documented medical necessity."^[27]
• At least one prisoner was "diagnosed with chronic hemorrhoids, an anal fissure and symptomatic rectal prolapse," symptoms normally associated with a violent rape.^[28]
• CIA officials Scott Miller and James Pavitt were told that rectal exams of at least two prisoners had been conducted with "excessive force."^[28]
• Threats to rape and murder were made against the children or family members of prisoners.^{[5]:4[29][30]}
• In November 2002 the CIA killed at least one prisoner during interrogation by hypothermia.^[29][30] No CIA employees were disciplined as a result of his death.^[29]
• At least four prisoners with injuries to their legs (two with broken feet, one with a sprained ankle and one with an amputated leg) were forced to stand on their injuries.^[29]
• Prisoners were told that they would be killed. (For example: one prisoner was told "We can never let the world know what I have done to you", another was told that the only way he would be allowed to leave the prison would be in a coffin.)^[29]
• One CIA interrogator who was subsequently sent home early threatened a prisoner with a gun and power drill and played Russian Roulette with him.^[28]
• At least two prisoners were victims of "mock executions."^[28]
• Several prisoners almost died and became completely unresponsive or nearly drowned during waterboarding.^[29]
• Abu Zubaydah's eye was so badly damaged during his time in prison that it was surgically removed.^[29]
• Prisoners were kept awake for over one week (180 hours) causing at least five to experience "disturbing" hallucinations.^[29]
• One prisoner was psychologically traumatized to the point of being "a broken man" but CIA operatives stopped short of "complete[ly] break[ing] [him]."^[29]
• Prisoners were forced to use buckets for toilets.^[28] As punishment, the waste bucket could be removed from a prisoner's cell.^[31]
• A report by the Federal Bureau of Prisons found that "they [had] never been in a facility where individuals were so sensory deprived i.e., constant white noise, no talking, everyone in the dark, with the guards wearing a light on their head when they collected and escorted a detainee to an interrogation cell, detainees constantly being shackled to the wall or floor, and the starkness of each cell (concrete and bars). There is nothing like this in the Federal Bureau of Prisons... detainees were not being treated... humanely."^[28]
• Janat Gul was tortured for months based on false accusations made by an informant.^[5][28]
• One prisoner was placed in a box the size of a coffin for over 11 days and was also placed for 29 hours in a box 21 inches (53 cm) wide, 2.5 feet (76 cm) deep and 2.5 feet (76 cm) high.^[32]
• CIA interrogators used unauthorized forms of torture such as forcing a prisoner to stand with his hand over his head for 2 1/2 days, putting a pistol next to his head and bathing him with a stiff brush.^[32]
• One detainee was subjected to "ice water baths" and 66 hours of standing sleep deprivation. He was later released as the CIA had mistaken his identity.^[33]
• Torture of prisoners led to serious mental harm (eg. dementia, paranoia, insomnia, and attempts at self-harm [including suicide])^[26]
• Of the 119 known detainees, at least 39 were tortured by the CIA.^[5] In at least six cases, the CIA used torture on suspects before evaluating whether they would be willing to cooperate.^[5][29]

 

http://www.alternet.org/world/did-nato-dogs-rape-afghan-prisoners-bagram-air-base

 

The war veteran, who loathed manipulating Western politicians even as he defended tactics of collective punishment, continued his account: Afghan prisoners were tied face down on small chairs, Jack said. Then fighting dogs entered the torture chamber.

“If the prisoners did not say anything useful, each dog got to take a turn on them,” Jack told Todenhoefer. “After procedure like these, they confessed everything. They would have even said that they killed Kennedy without even knowing who he was.”

Illustrated drone strikes -

http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/

Civilian deaths in Iraq -

Source Estimated violent deaths Time period Iraq Family Health Survey 151,000 violent deaths March 2003 to June 2006 Lancet survey 601,027 violent deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths March 2003 to June 2006 Opinion Research Business survey 1,033,000 deaths as a result of the conflict March 2003 to August 2007 PLOS Medicine Survey^[2] Approximately 500,000 deaths in Iraq as direct or indirect result of the war. March 2003 to June, 2011

Body counts:

Source Documented deaths from violence Time period Associated Press 110,600 violent deaths March 2003 to April 2009 Iraq Body Count project 112,667–123,284 civilian deaths from violence. 174,000 civilian and combatant deaths^[3][4][5][6] March 2003 to March 2013 Classified Iraq War Logs^[3][7][8][9]109,032 deaths including 66,081 civilian deaths.^[10][11] January 2004 to December 2009

We are definitely free of barbarism in the USA.

 

http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-murdered-5000-innocent-civilians-since-911/172029/

 

Since 9/11, about 5,000 Americans have been killed by U.S. police officers, which is almost equivalent to the number of U.S. soldiers who have been killed in the line of duty in Iraq.

 

Definitely Free.

 

 

The freest country there ever was.

 

 

Many prisons in the United States are overcrowded. For example, California's 33 prisons have a total capacity of 100,000, but they hold 170,000 inmates.^[102] Many prisons in California and around the country are forced to turn old gymnasiums and classrooms into huge bunkhouses for inmates. They do this by placing hundreds of bunk beds next to one another, in these gyms, without any type of barriers to keep inmates separated. In California, the inadequate security engendered by this situation, coupled with insufficient staffing levels, have led to increased violence and a prison health system that causes one death a week. This situation has led the courts to order California to release 27% of the current prison population, citing the Eighth Amendment's prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment.^[103] The three-judge court considering requests by the Plata v. Schwarzenegger andColeman v. Schwarzenegger courts found California's prisons have become criminogenic as a result of prison overcrowding.^[104]

 

Solitary confinement is widely used in US prisons, yet it is underreported by most states, while some don't report it at all. Isolation of prisoners has been condemned by the UN in 2011 as a form of torture. At over 80,000 at any given time, the US has more prisoners confined in isolation than any other country in the world. In Louisiana, with 843 prisoners per 100,000 citizens, there have been prisoners, such as the Angola Three, held for as long as forty years in isolation.^[107][108]

 

In 2011, some 885 people died while being held in local jails (not in prisons after being convicted of a crime and sentenced) throughout the United States.^[110]

 

Sociologist John L. Campbell of Dartmouth College claims that private prisons in the U.S. have become "a lucrative business."^[122] Between 1990 and 2000, the number of private facilities grew from five to 100, operated by nearly 20 private firms. Over the same time period the stock price of the industry leader, Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), climbed from $8 a share to $30.^[122] The aforementioned Bloomberg report also notes that in the past decade the number of inmates in for-profit prisons throughout the U.S. rose 44 percent.^[117]

 

FREE AS A MOTHERFUCKER

[cwmbrancity]

exactement

[Lane Visitor]

No I'm ending my responses and posts now in this thread because John Erlichman thinks I use racist language...

P.s. If anyone else wants to attack me and accuse me of using racist speech because I used the word "barbaric/barbarism" as it relates to oppressive regimes in Middle Eastern countries, please go ahead.

Thanks for your solid genuine input on me and what I represent JE. I no longer feel comfortable participating in this discussion, as I feel you've distorted my character. Good times. /End of my posts in this particular thread. Good job alienating people you disagree with, mate.

 

 

P.P.S. @Aeidu, well thought response- and respect that.. but 22 bullpoints, some case studies about the use of torture at Gitmo and graph about imprisonment doesn't amount to characterizing the U.S. as barbaric for me.. it may for others, Yes weve taken part in barbaric things for sure, and our prison system is fucked, but I still think we are more fair and tolerant than we are barbaric in our methods. I can't fathom even the openly known (not to mention undisclosed) amounts of cruel treatment authoritarian regimes under strict religious laws put their citizenry under on a daily basis, and we'll probably never know the full extent either.

[cwmbrancity]

what i dont get is after Vietnam the US did some serious soul-searching. Its shows in the films that came out in the mid/late 70's, yet so far theres Homeland, Zero something 30 (which was like an advert promoting torture), the absolutely ridiculous (if well crafted) American Sniper (shame on u, Clint).......even Green-Zone was slightly limp

 

its as if large parts of the population either dont want to know what their elected representatives have achieved overseas, or simply dont care

 

strange times

[chenGOD]

what i dont get is after Vietnam the US did some serious soul-searching. Its shows in the films that came out in the mid/late 70's, yet so far theres Homeland, Zero something 30 (which was like an advert promoting torture), the absolutely ridiculous (if well crafted) American Sniper (shame on u, Clint).......even Green-Zone was slightly limp

 

its as if large parts of the population either dont want to know what their elected representatives have achieved overseas, or simply dont care

 

strange times

 

Read a good article on this - largely to do with the increased disconnect between the military and the public in modern times. Let me dig the article up.

 

Here we go:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/12/the-tragedy-of-the-american-military/383516/

[cwmbrancity]

i traveled past the Pentagon every day for ages on the DC metro and there was always a deep respect for armed forces personnel. People would give up there seats, openly say thank-you for their service.......true respect for genuine sacrifices. I couldnt help be moved by that, maybe because British society is a lot more shall we say tight-lipped. But this is where the rub is........these people are all being exploited by institutions that are making the world a much more dangerous place, all in the name of US interests and arbitrary notions of freedom & democracy.

 

look at how the west has goaded Putin in the Ukraine in recent affairs. At any stage, when defusing measures could be enacted, McCain & Kerry BOTH traveled to Kiev stirring it up & spouting crap about democracy and abstract notions of freedom. Yes Putin is a sketchy sketchy SKETCHY cunt, but better the devil you know sometimes. Why prod the fucker with a stick?

 

its this level of short-sightedness that is truly frightening, not the "reality" of getting blown up/shot/kidnapped by Islamic extremists.

 

throw in some beefs between Japan vs China and its duck & cover time,,,,,,fuck this i'mma gonna buy some weapons, dig an underground storage facility, catalog my records and start recruiting sex slaves for the long nights ahead,,,,,,drop the bomb kill them all

[Berk]

I'm not sure if the idea that a state provides safety is an illusion. If it fails in doing that - perhaps even by taking disproportional measures like invading people's privacy to a ridiculous extent for "safety" - it is not a proper state in my opinion. Also think about Hobbes' state of war etc.

[awepittance]

has anyone in this thread checked out James Risen's new book 'Pay Any Price'? It's one of the most slam dunk cases of how the war on terror is absolute bullshit I've ever read and does not fall into the paradigm of being preachy or political like stuff by Glenn Greenwald or Chris Hedges. One of the main premises of the book that he proves repeatedly in almost every chapter, is that the security industry that exploded after 9/11 does not actually literally increase our safety and it's illusory.