French mag Charlie Hebdo attacked by gunmen, 12 dead

[Hugh Mughnus]

ok,,,,another example

 

have you read around the recent conviction of a certain Abu-Hamza al-Masri?

 

he was a "preacher" at London's Finsbury Park mosque, where various members of the Paris attacks attended and where people with direct links to attacks on the US have attended, directly as part of Hamza's entourage & various other hate-clerics.

 

Mr Hamza came out with all kinds of "rhetoric", but the actions he called for/condoned have all played out in various other countries and innocent people have died as a consequence.

 

Should he have been allowed to act/preach as he did or was his recent trial & conviction in the US legitimate?

 

Where do you draw the line?

 

Do you have specific examples of some of the stuff he said? I'm legitimately curious and it's not a loaded question.

 

Shouldn't the accountability be on the individual not to act on the preaching of a crazy person?

 

I'm not well educated in this area and don't claim to be so just humor me...

[joshuatxuk]

because i got called out for being "arrogant", which isnt the case at all, unless you consider articulate, straight-talking a problem?

 

or is this a big circle-jerk bonanza?

 

It's just a matter of lurking versus being here for years. I didn't even check general banter until I had posted frequently elsewhere. I'm not even sure when I felt like I was known and familiar enough to post freely in threads like this. When I first came across a topic about the middle east I was flabbergasted at the unfiltered and blunt tones of many on the thread regarding Israel and Zionism. But likewise there's very often offense and vitriolic comments about religion and politics all over this forum.

 

I suppose I'm one of the more "moderate" people on here, I rant here and there but usually I don't feel like I have the time or passion to get involved with really touchy subjects debated/discussed. And I myself have tried to be less snarky, smug, and annoying toward others in replies than in the past. You'll find me in sillier topics or in the music forums (which brought me here in the first place) more often than not. Same can be said for most of the old timers here. TBH there are still some rare posts in general banter by older members I have to shrug off, but that's because of my opinion. In the past I've PM'd people who I felt were being singled out in some heated exchanges to say I heard them out. I can say that this is ultimately a friendly forum: I've literally seen individual members who pretty much hate each other 99% of the time in general banter speak on good terms in the non-political topics, even make lighthearted jokes towards each other. I wouldn't take this topic as anything personal or serious.

[awepittance]

I've literally seen individual members who pretty much hate each other 99% of the time in general banter speak on good terms in the non-political topics, even make lighthearted jokes towards each other. I wouldn't take this topic as anything personal or serious.

 

this is true, even though I imagine Eugene and I would hate each other in real life out of the gates because of our politics, we'd probably still be able to have a decent time listening to L-event together.

[cwmbrancity]

 

because i got called out for being "arrogant", which isnt the case at all, unless you consider articulate, straight-talking a problem?

 

or is this a big circle-jerk bonanza?

 

It's just a matter of lurking versus being here for years. I didn't even check general banter until I had posted frequently elsewhere. I'm not even sure when I felt like I was known and familiar enough to post freely in threads like this. When I first came across a topic about the middle east I was flabbergasted at the unfiltered and blunt tones of many on the thread regarding Israel and Zionism. But likewise there's very often offense and vitriolic comments about religion and politics all over this forum.

 

I suppose I'm one of the more "moderate" people on here, I rant here and there but usually I don't feel like I have the time or passion to get involved with really touchy subjects debated/discussed. And I myself have tried to be less snarky, smug, and annoying toward others in replies than in the past. You'll find me in sillier topics or in the music forums (which brought me here in the first place) more often than not. Same can be said for most of the old timers here. TBH there are still some rare posts in general banter by older members I have to shrug off, but that's because of my opinion. In the past I've PM'd people who I felt were being singled out in some heated exchanges to say I heard them out. I can say that this is ultimately a friendly forum: I've literally seen individual members who pretty much hate each other 99% of the time in general banter speak on good terms in the non-political topics, even make lighthearted jokes towards each other. I wouldn't take this topic as anything personal or serious.

 

 

 

How is the US media reporting this event? Someone forwarded me a recent Fox bulletin that lead with the headline that Birmingham, Britain's 2nd biggest city, was now effectively a no go zone for any non-Muslims.

 

Now i know all too well the ideology that network represents, but, the climate in Europe is getting ever more sketchy. This isnt personal hysteria. Pegida is marching in Germany, fanning the flames, and even John Oliver picked up on this very recently.

 

Baring in mind the situation in Ukraine isnt exactly healthy.

 

And this has all really come to a head in the last 12-18months.

 

The levels of ignorance & islamaphobia/antisemitism here are increasingly fucked up.

 

If i was a moderate muslim i wouldnt know what to think.

[cwmbrancity]

i dunno i thought paying the subscription fee to access some cracking music content constituted a good deal

 

now i have some sort of "problem" with over-seasoning my spiel and need to get over that too, pronto

[cwmbrancity]

and its page 23,,,,,,,,

[goDel]

The levels of ignorance & islamaphobia/antisemitism here are increasingly fucked up.

 

If i was a moderate muslim i wouldnt know what to think.

I see it as the Bill Maher phase some people need to get through. He can be monumentally obnoxious in his self-righteousness. But it comes from good intentions. And there's certainly a level of reasoning behind it which does not deserve to be called fucked up, I believe. Eventhough i disagree.

 

On a sidenote, I have to say I kinda appreciate the sudden revival of Voltaire in France. Like where he is paraphrased something like: eventhough i completely despise what you say, I will fight for your freedom to say it. Seeing even the pope is currently drawing lines in the sand when it comes to freedom of speech, it does feel like there's a need to reevaluate the principles of enlightenment. Not to say that I'd agree with his set of lines. Rather the contrary. But it's the exact area where I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding between the various sides of the argument.

[cwmbrancity]

By fucked up i mean the rise in islamaphobia/antisemitism here in Europa

 

The Pegida march in Germany, plus the almost certain returns UKIP is gonna score here in fairest Albion this coming election, are big fuckin warning signs.

 

On top of UKIP, we have the open-minded & rational EDL to worry about. Not for the sake of worrying, but because they're a rebranded NF/BNP. UKIP especially have created a xenophobic climate where everyone from outside Britain living here is somehow suspect. They've targeted the legitimate arrival of hard-working Poles, Czechs and various others as a sign that our nation sovereignty is crumbling. They are loving events in Paris recently, because this has tallied with their Fortress Europe/Fortress Britannia notions of "policy".

 

And people are lapping it up.

 

Thats whats scary.

 

Its going to be a hung parliament, leading to a Tory/UKIP cabinet.........

 

What

 

The

 

Fuck

[Lane Visitor]

By fucked up i mean the rise in islamaphobia/antisemitism here in Europa

 

The Pegida march in Germany, plus the almost certain returns UKIP is gonna score here in fairest Albion this coming election, are big fuckin warning signs.

 

On top of UKIP, we have the open-minded & rational EDL to worry about. Not for the sake of worrying, but because they're a rebranded NF/BNP. UKIP especially have created a xenophobic climate where everyone from outside Britain living here is somehow suspect. They've targeted the legitimate arrival of hard-working Poles, Czechs and various others as a sign that our nation sovereignty is crumbling. They are loving events in Paris recently, because this has tallied with their Fortress Europe/Fortress Britannia notions of "policy".

 

And people are lapping it up.

 

Thats whats scary.

 

Its going to be a hung parliament, leading to a Tory/UKIP cabinet.........

 

What

 

The

 

Fuck

That is disturbing. Its super frustrating when the far right hijacks the topic of extremism and terror and uses it for their own fucked up bigotry. What a way to actually lose a fight against terror- to stoop down toward the level of extremists, and completely invalidate any actual real concerns about extremism.

[goDel]

Oooo, I thought you meant here at watmm. Seeing your follow up posts about sub fees an stuff.

 

Regarding europe, coming from Holland I don't see a sudden rise in islamophobia. We've been bathed in it for a while. And the breivik thing tells it's not just Holland as well, I think.

In politics, it's mostly populism. Populism - whether or not islamaphobic, anti-EU, or anti you name it - which has been strong for a good while now. Although I am concerned, I'm not too scared about it.

It's mostly hot air that's being ventilated. And there's no real political power behind it. Every time a populist party obtains actual responsibility, reality sets in. Meaning it's either a heavily toned down version of what they preach, or simply fails to achieve anything worthwhile. Either way, people quickly lose interest in populistic parties with actual responsibility. That also says something about the voters for such parties, of course. ...

[cwmbrancity]

agreed w/Breivik & theres a long history of nutters here too, from Mosely & the Black Shirts, through to groups like Combat18 who picked up a lot of the football/casual element.

 

Farage has built up a genuine head of steam here. UKIP will shave the Libdems (Clegg's party) because they're picking up voters disillusioned with the Conservatives & Labour. He might look like a cock, but he's a canny operator. He's played on the recent furore about radicalization of kids in certain Birmingham schools & its adds to the toxicity.

 

If the forthcoming tv debate goes on, he'll grow from that, because he has no track record of actual failure in government, like the others do, so that in turn could re-inforce the freshness of his attraction to voters. Farage appeals to a very stodgy, mostly elderly group of people here and its these people who actually vote, as opposed to younger generations. At the same time, Labour is losing huge numbers of votes in Scotland, which again reinforces the right wing parties in Westminster.

 

its a strange time here and i just hope people wake up when they're at the ballot box.

[goDel]

I think we're kinda lucky in Holland. Here it's possible that the party of Geert Wilders can become the second largest, but because there are plenty parties, there's basically a necessity to form coalitions with other parties to have an actual majority in the parliament. I understand it can feel kind of scary when populist hothead parties do get lots of votes, and political power, but in practice it's mostly good. In the real world, populist ideas can hardly survive. And in a system where coalitions are a necessity, the damage populists parties can do is minimal.

Added positive outcome, is that it becomes extremely visible whether or not populists have any kind of integrity in them (or their ideas).

 

Not sure how this translates to the situation in the UK though. But if it's similar to Holland, I wouldn't be too worried.

[cwmbrancity]

the Scots independence vote has definitely livened up politics, lot of younger people engaged for the 1st time, as opposed to previous levels of apathy, thats a good balancing point to counter the scare-mongers

[DerWaschbar]

i am charlie

[cwmbrancity]

meanwhile in Syria & Iraq,,,,,,,

[Friendly Foil]

That post really got me thinking. Good to put things into perspective like that sometimes.

[brian trageskin]

i just want to contribute to this discussion by mentioning that everything cwmbrancity said about french comedian Dieudonné is complete bullshit.

Dieudonné is the most popular comedian in France, the establishment needs him as a scapegoat for their incompetence and hypocrisy.

Dieudonné does not criticize jewish people for what they biologically are, but for what they do.

by some kind of miracle, in france, being jewish gives you total immunity against criticism, which is irrational, unfair and undemocratic. what does freedom of speech mean if you can't criticize a person's acts because of his/her ethnic origin? preventing to do so is an act of racism, not the other way around.

also, the jewish community is presented by the french establishment as eternal victims of irrational antisemitism, and the holocaust became the unofficial state religion. nothing can be said in france, that contradicts the official history of the holocaust, and i believe this needs to stop. what is historical research if you're not allowed to draw different conclusions from others? what kind of censorship is this?

i could go on but that'll do for now.

[triachus]

i just want to contribute to this discussion by mentioning that everything cwmbrancity said about french comedian Dieudonné is complete bullshit.

Dieudonné is the most popular comedian in France, the establishment needs him as a scapegoat for their incompetence and hypocrisy.

Dieudonné does not criticize jewish people for what they biologically are, but for what they do.

by some kind of miracle, in france, being jewish gives you total immunity against criticism, which is irrational, unfair and undemocratic. what does freedom of speech mean if you can't criticize a person's acts because of his/her ethnic origin? preventing to do so is an act of racism, not the other way around.

also, the jewish community is presented by the french establishment as eternal victims of irrational antisemitism, and the holocaust became the unofficial state religion. nothing can be said in france, that contradicts the official history of the holocaust, and i believe this needs to stop. what is historical research if you're not allowed to draw different conclusions from others? what kind of censorship is this?

i could go on but that'll do for now.

 

translation: "i am oppressed because jewy mcjewjew doesn't like it when i deny the holocaust"

[brian trageskin]

despite the fact i disagree with you tri, LOL

 

by the way, Glenn Greenwald defends Dieudonné's freedom of speech on twitter. conspiracy-obsessed fascists unite?

[khov]

i just want to contribute to this discussion by mentioning that everything cwmbrancity said about french comedian Dieudonné is complete bullshit.

Dieudonné is the most popular comedian in France, the establishment needs him as a scapegoat for their incompetence and hypocrisy.

Dieudonné does not criticize jewish people for what they biologically are, but for what they do.

by some kind of miracle, in france, being jewish gives you total immunity against criticism, which is irrational, unfair and undemocratic. what does freedom of speech mean if you can't criticize a person's acts because of his/her ethnic origin? preventing to do so is an act of racism, not the other way around.

also, the jewish community is presented by the french establishment as eternal victims of irrational antisemitism, and the holocaust became the unofficial state religion. nothing can be said in france, that contradicts the official history of the holocaust, and i believe this needs to stop. what is historical research if you're not allowed to draw different conclusions from others? what kind of censorship is this?

i could go on but that'll do for now.

 

No way. Most people cant stand dieudonné in france. i spent years there, & he's totally nuts & known as a complete weirdo. He hates jewish people and everybody knows it. even by watmms bullshits standards your post is HISTORY. Speaking about History, 6 millions of jewish people were killed in europe during ww2 & since that, you're not allowed to express antisemitic or racists views in France. As its not considered as an opinion anymore, but as a crime that can lead to other crimes. Makes sense as racist freedom of speech helped to kill 6 millions of innocent victims in Europe. Its not only "official" history, it's History done by specialists, scientits, historians, witnesses not ignorants weirdos/haters posting on some conspirationists subforums. If your different "conclusions" on racism & antisemitism do not reckon or respect historical facts, well it should be fought by all intellectuals means. Leave that to historians. & please never repeat that Dieudonné is the most popular comedian in France as its totally false. Its like saying Come to Daddy is the biggest EVER selling record in the UK. Well you can write it on some forum but errr that's bullshit.

[khov]

despite the fact i disagree with you tri, LOL

 

by the way, Glenn Greenwald defends Dieudonné's freedom of speech on twitter. conspiracy-obsessed fascists unite?

 

No, he's on the american way of thinking regarding freedom of speech, which like i said above is very different from (post WW2) french laws.

[khov]

 

I've literally seen individual members who pretty much hate each other 99% of the time in general banter speak on good terms in the non-political topics, even make lighthearted jokes towards each other. I wouldn't take this topic as anything personal or serious.

 

this is true, even though I imagine Eugene and I would hate each other in real life out of the gates because of our politics, we'd probably still be able to have a decent time listening to L-event together.

 

 

Well, i know that Luz (who draw the latest cover of Charlie Hebdo with a cartoon of Mahomet, he wasnt shot during the attack) is indeed a fan of Autechre, i remember he mentionned it in interview once.

[Perezvon]

I've lived in France for more than a few years in the recent past and if you asked any educated French person about the tenability of Dieudonné's position they'd immediately throw their hands up with "what can we do?" exasperation.

 

This is so not true.

[brian trageskin]

 

i just want to contribute to this discussion by mentioning that everything cwmbrancity said about french comedian Dieudonné is complete bullshit.

Dieudonné is the most popular comedian in France, the establishment needs him as a scapegoat for their incompetence and hypocrisy.

Dieudonné does not criticize jewish people for what they biologically are, but for what they do.

by some kind of miracle, in france, being jewish gives you total immunity against criticism, which is irrational, unfair and undemocratic. what does freedom of speech mean if you can't criticize a person's acts because of his/her ethnic origin? preventing to do so is an act of racism, not the other way around.

also, the jewish community is presented by the french establishment as eternal victims of irrational antisemitism, and the holocaust became the unofficial state religion. nothing can be said in france, that contradicts the official history of the holocaust, and i believe this needs to stop. what is historical research if you're not allowed to draw different conclusions from others? what kind of censorship is this?

i could go on but that'll do for now.

 

No way. Most people cant stand dieudonné in france. i spent years there, & he's totally nuts & known as a complete weirdo. He hates jewish people and everybody knows it. even by watmms bullshits standards your post is HISTORY. Speaking about History, 6 millions of jewish people were killed in europe during ww2 & since that, you're not allowed to express antisemitic or racists views in France. As its not considered as an opinion anymore, but as a crime that can lead to other crimes. Makes sense as racist freedom of speech helped to kill 6 millions of innocent victims in Europe. Its not only "official" history, it's History done by specialists, scientits, historians, witnesses not ignorants weirdos/haters posting on some conspirationists subforums. If your different "conclusions" on racism & antisemitism do not reckon or respect historical facts, well it should be fought by all intellectuals means. Leave that to historians. & please never repeat that Dieudonné is the most popular comedian in France as its totally false. Its like saying Come to Daddy is the biggest EVER selling record in the UK. Well you can write it on some forum but errr that's bullshit.

 

 

first, who said Dieudonné has antisemitic views? journalists, intellectuals, politicians etc. i personally think his views aren't antisemitic, and i don't need the intelligentsia to tell me what things are or aren't.

secondly, you can't be punished for your opinion in france. you have the right to contradict history, oh wait, you used to have that right but then the gayssot act was voted, enabling you to be punished for crime of opinion.

thirdly, revisionists contradict the conclusions drawn by "specialists" regarding the holocaust and they strongly disagree with what was established as "historical facts". you might disagree with their conclusions, their methods etc., but i believe they should have a right to exercise their freedom of opinion. i don't want the thought police to tell me what's right or wrong.

and last, Dieudonné is one huge phenomenon in france, nobody can seriously deny that. i'm perfectly ok with people disagreeing with his views, or thinking he's not funny, but you can't present him like he has no influence on public opinion. imo, he's probably the single most influent person on french public opinion.

[White Rainbow]

 

 

i just want to contribute to this discussion by mentioning that everything cwmbrancity said about french comedian Dieudonné is complete bullshit.

Dieudonné is the most popular comedian in France, the establishment needs him as a scapegoat for their incompetence and hypocrisy.

Dieudonné does not criticize jewish people for what they biologically are, but for what they do.

by some kind of miracle, in france, being jewish gives you total immunity against criticism, which is irrational, unfair and undemocratic. what does freedom of speech mean if you can't criticize a person's acts because of his/her ethnic origin? preventing to do so is an act of racism, not the other way around.

also, the jewish community is presented by the french establishment as eternal victims of irrational antisemitism, and the holocaust became the unofficial state religion. nothing can be said in france, that contradicts the official history of the holocaust, and i believe this needs to stop. what is historical research if you're not allowed to draw different conclusions from others? what kind of censorship is this?

i could go on but that'll do for now.

 

No way. Most people cant stand dieudonné in france. i spent years there, & he's totally nuts & known as a complete weirdo. He hates jewish people and everybody knows it. even by watmms bullshits standards your post is HISTORY. Speaking about History, 6 millions of jewish people were killed in europe during ww2 & since that, you're not allowed to express antisemitic or racists views in France. As its not considered as an opinion anymore, but as a crime that can lead to other crimes. Makes sense as racist freedom of speech helped to kill 6 millions of innocent victims in Europe. Its not only "official" history, it's History done by specialists, scientits, historians, witnesses not ignorants weirdos/haters posting on some conspirationists subforums. If your different "conclusions" on racism & antisemitism do not reckon or respect historical facts, well it should be fought by all intellectuals means. Leave that to historians. & please never repeat that Dieudonné is the most popular comedian in France as its totally false. Its like saying Come to Daddy is the biggest EVER selling record in the UK. Well you can write it on some forum but errr that's bullshit.

 

 

first, who said Dieudonné has antisemitic views? journalists, intellectuals, politicians etc. i personally think his views aren't antisemitic, and i don't need the intelligentsia to tell me what things are or aren't.

secondly, you can't be punished for your opinion in france. you have the right to contradict history, oh wait, you used to have that right but then the gayssot act was voted, enabling you to be punished for crime of opinion.

thirdly, revisionists contradict the conclusions drawn by "specialists" regarding the holocaust and they strongly disagree with what was established as "historical facts". you might disagree with their conclusions, their methods etc., but i believe they should have a right to exercise their freedom of opinion. i don't want the thought police to tell me what's right or wrong.

and last, Dieudonné is one huge phenomenon in france, nobody can seriously deny that. i'm perfectly ok with people disagreeing with his views, or thinking he's not funny, but you can't present him like he has no influence on public opinion. imo, he's probably the single most influent person on french public opinion.

 

 

Me, i say he is an anti semite and no he doesn’t have unanimous support here in france.

 

When he invited on stage the worst revisionist Robert Faurisson and give him the mic, or when he’s singing “Shoahnanas” (shoah + ananas) it’s not humour anymore, What he think becomes clear. It’s not because many of you (cause you will be always too many) in france get lost in antisemitic and negationist views that you can claim here france support the worst scumbag in france.

 

To finish, yeah, journalist, politicians give him too much exposure when they blame him for what he said or take him to court!