M/S Thread

[TubularCorporation]

I've been really psyched on M/S processing lately, and I'd love to hear about any tips, gear, anecdotes, sordid rumors or whatever you all might have!

 

 

It's pretty basic, but I've had a lot of direct to stereo hardware jams piling up, and usually the mixes are pretty rough in places. I've had a lot of luck boosting the lows, usually somewhere down in the 60-200 range, a couple DB on the mid channel while rolling them off gently on the side and adding just a bit of clipping (usually with the Klanghelm SDRR). I've found I can usually get away with a lot less EQ and can compress the mix more aggressively without it sounding too squashed. Good for bringing out more detail in recordings of practices and shows, too.

[Ingwe]

DMG equilibrium (designed w ideas from rdj) is good for m/s eq, as is the brainworx stuff. generally best for mastering but good for bass control like you described. also good for any stereo mixed sounds, can be nice to cut some muddy frequencies from the mid channel of a stereo synth pad thing, but leave them untouched or even boosted on the side. also useful to change up sampled breaks or other stereo samples.

[Lucas]

I do more M/S for mastering but now I'm getting used to it I guess I'll start using it for mixing, especially on group of tracks. I also like to calm down the low content of the side to have a more focused, centered bass response. On the other side, a nice way to open up the stereo if it works in context is to slightly boost the highs of the sides.

 

The plugins I use a lot in M/S currently are BaxterEQ from Variety on Sound and also Slick EQ (Tokyo Dawn Labs / VoS). The plugin MSED from Voxengo allows you to adjust gain / mute M and S signals, which is practical when you're willing to work with M/S on a given session (I put it on the master in two versions, one muting the S signal and the second one the M one and I toggle one of them on whenever I need to check something). Putting some gain on the S signal of a reverb can also lead to good results.

[xox]

DMG equilibrium (designed w ideas from rdj)

 

aahah what?

[TubularCorporation]

On the other side, a nice way to open up the stereo if it works in context is to slightly boost the highs of the sides.

 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been doing on a lot of live to stereo mixes lately, except I'm using a clipper instead of an EQ. It seems like it also usually makes reverb/room tone pop out a little more but without sounding like you turned it up exactly, it just kind of finds its place in the mix nicely, where everything sounds more like it's happening in a space but keeps it's front-back position in the stereo field.

[Ingwe]

 

DMG equilibrium (designed w ideas from rdj)

 

aahah what?

 

 

yeah he said in the syrobonkers intvw that he had some input into designing the plugin, esp. with the midi input. thought that was funny cuz i already liked it/was using it.

[lala]

yeah, i use a bit of this, got it cheap with the black friday sales

 

I like the possibilities of M/S processing but it hasnt worked out exactly as id imagined it. need more experimenting

[Lucas]

 

On the other side, a nice way to open up the stereo if it works in context is to slightly boost the highs of the sides.

 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been doing on a lot of live to stereo mixes lately, except I'm using a clipper instead of an EQ. It seems like it also usually makes reverb/room tone pop out a little more but without sounding like you turned it up exactly, it just kind of finds its place in the mix nicely, where everything sounds more like it's happening in a space but keeps it's front-back position in the stereo field.

 

 

interesting idea but doesn't it damage the transients / go against the dynamic impact? Which tool do you use for doing that?

[TubularCorporation]

That Brainworx stuff looks really good, wish I had the budget for it.

 

 

 

On the other side, a nice way to open up the stereo if it works in context is to slightly boost the highs of the sides.

 

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been doing on a lot of live to stereo mixes lately, except I'm using a clipper instead of an EQ. It seems like it also usually makes reverb/room tone pop out a little more but without sounding like you turned it up exactly, it just kind of finds its place in the mix nicely, where everything sounds more like it's happening in a space but keeps it's front-back position in the stereo field.

 

 

interesting idea but doesn't it damage the transients / go against the dynamic impact? Which tool do you use for doing that?

 

 

I probably wouldn't be likely to use it on the 2 buss in a "real mix" (as opposed to the direct to stereo noodling I've been using it on) but I've mostly liked the effect it has on transients. For the recordings I'm tweaking now I've been using DDMF metaplugin with their M/S endcoder and decoder, then processing the side with Klandghelm SDRR in "desk" mode (so I guess subtle saturation not clipping; for straight clipping I've got KClip but I only recently picked it up so I'm still getting a feel for it) and using TDR SlickEQ GE to give the lows a bit of a boost on the mid channel, usually 1-2 db centered somewhere slightly below 200Hz with a bit of a rolloff down below 40-60. For the SDRR, I've been using only a very tiny amount of gain, the drive is set below 1 almost always. Sometimes I use the EQ in it to roll the lows of very slightly so the side separates from the mid a bit more, but again it's really subtle when I do. Like, adjust until it's barely audible and then back it off a little subtle. I've been doing it post compression. The biggest effect I hear is that it gives a perception of brightness without the harshness I was getting when I tried to brighten the same recordings with EQ (additive or subtractive). It's kind of hard to describe. Brings out details inside of the individual instruments kind of like compression does, but without sounding compressed, if that makes sense.

 

It's worth pointing out that I typically go for a kind of mid-fidelity sound on purpose, so what's appropriate for me might sound wrong on someone else's stuff.

 

I could see the same general idea (EQ the mid, saturate the side) sounding really good on stereo pads and things like that. Maybe a stereo aux return.

[Ragnar]

it's good but not to sound obvious but you need some cool stereo effects/placement in the first place. I learned that the hard way

[cruising for burgers]

i went reading a bit to know what all this M/S processing was all about. So, if i understood correctly, this are apps/pluggins that separate (decode) your stereo track in 3 mono tracks, center, left and right, (which is simply the same signal of the left channel but with its phase inverted) the original tracks that we had when we recorded in MS, right? And then you can process (eq, comp, etc) on the individual tracks? is that it???

 

btw, here's some stuff i recorded MS live last week:
https://soundcloud.com/w44ww44w/sets/recordings

[TubularCorporation]

Almost, it's only two tracks, the left and right are actually a single mono channel. You probably already saw it, but post 5 in this thread is as concise an explanation of how it works as I've seen. It's one of those things that sounds impossible until it clicks for you and then is completely logical in retrospect.

[Guest skibby]

for those windows users who still exist, give these a shot.

http://www.jovankoncar.com/j1000/

[Psychotronic]

I'm using Presswerk for this. :)

[ceiling]

Never tried mid side processing until now. Just put it on the master channel of this song I'm working on and to me it feels like it's opened up the mix a little bit : )

 

I EQ'd out the lows on the side from about 300hz down on a gentle slope, just left the mid untouched.

 

Could someone tell me if i've done this correctly or not because to my ears it sounds cleaner and more open then it did before.

 

I'm using Ozone 7's equaliser which has mid/side capabilities. 

 

I just wanna know if im doing this completely wrong? 

[cruising for burgers]

so, in retrospect, we have L and R from a stereo signal and we:

L + (-R) = Mid

 

(-Mid) + L = Side_(L)

 

(-Mid) + R = Side_(R)

[cruising for burgers]

small correction:

L + (-R) = Mid
 
-Mid + L = Side_(L)
 
Mid - R = Side_(R)

[mcbpete]

Never tried mid side processing until now. Just put it on the master channel of this song I'm working on and to me it feels like it's opened up the mix a little bit : )

 

I EQ'd out the lows on the side from about 300hz down on a gentle slope, just left the mid untouched.

 

Could someone tell me if i've done this correctly or not because to my ears it sounds cleaner and more open then it did before.

 

I'm using Ozone 7's equaliser which has mid/side capabilities. 

 

I just wanna know if im doing this completely wrong?

Yeah that sounds fine, what I personally do (though probably results in exactly the same thing!) is use the Imager module and pull the value of 'Band 1 Width' down towards mono (the single circle)

 

One instant improvement I noticed was that it immediately pushed the phase correlation into the positive, before knowing this trick all my reverbs seemed to make it do wacky things with the phase information of the final mix

[TubularCorporation]

Yeah, that's a common way of moving lows to the center, really useful.

 

Airwindows has a simple, free plugin to do it and it's built in to some EQs (TDR SlickEQ M has it):

 

http://www.airwindows.com/sidepass/

 

 

 

One thing to be aware of is if you WIDEN  the stereo image using M/S it can mess up mono compatibility, so all your AM radio airplay will sound wrong.

 

 

 

Is there actually a practical reason to care about mono compatibility in the 21st century?

[mcbpete]

Is there actually a practical reason to care about mono compatibility in the 21st century?

I think it's something like - If you get it sounding good in mono then your mix is generally spot on. Also I think it can help with people listening on speakers - They don't have to make sure they're sitting at a 'sweet spot' to hear your mix properly.

[TubularCorporation]

 

Is there actually a practical reason to care about mono compatibility in the 21st century?

I think it's something like - If you get it sounding good in mono then your mix is generally spot on. Also I think it can help with people listening on speakers - They don't have to make sure they're sitting at a 'sweet spot' to hear your mix properly.

 

 

 

Oh for sure, it's definitely good to mix in mono and check in mono, I was more just making a throwaway joke about how textbooks and tutorials and stuff still make a big deal about mono compatibility when mono compatibility was mostly about keeping things sounding good on weak FM signals, AM and television back when most TV sets were mono.

 

I guess it's relevant today because people listen to stuff on the built in speaker on their phone sometimes.

[cruising for burgers]

well i just realized my whole concept was wrong so that's why that math didn't quite work, my mistake was in the 1st expression where i stated that L - R = Mid, which is not, L - R = Side, duh... everything that's common disappears... not that anyone cares... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TubularCorporation]

Oh, on highpass filtering the side to move the lows to the center, if you like the sound of pretty much anything recorded before the late 80s you should be investigating this, because it was one of the integral parts of mastering for vinyl.  If the low end isn't relatively centered in the stereo field (or more precisely, if the left and right aren't phase correlated in the low end - if the sides aren't in phase in the bass it would be a challenge to even cut a lacquer to begin with) a stylus can't track it well (or at all in some cases) so just about any stereo mix  that ended up on a record had some degree of this done, ether in the mix itself or in mastering or during the actual lacquer cutting.

 

It was called elliptical EQ but it achieves the same thing (and in the same way, I'm pretty sure - "elliptical" is just a reference to a shape on a phase correlation meter).

[mcbpete]

Absolutely - And for those going the vinyl route once again AirWindows is to hand to help with that sorta thing - http://www.airwindows.com/tovinyl4/

[Guest]

Was hoping for a MS Paint thread :-(