New Luddism

[AJW]

re balking at "there is no relevant offline world"...

 

yall need to come visit the ole US (visit salv in nyc) and walk a few miles in the streets. go into a public library an hour before close and you will see borderline homeless people huddled near power outlets charging their phone, scrolling, scrolling scrolling, their belongings in a plastic grocery bag.

 

i would say, there is an inverse relationship between one's income level and one's freedom to "take up woodcrafting to achieve balance," although there is a colony of homeless people near the library that makes palm leaf crosses...

 

yeah, i'd say the top minds in silicon valley are ultimately preying on the most vulnerable, re: mental health.

 

i love most of all the pros of technology that yall love, but ditch the utopia bullshit. if there is a technology oasis, it's in the middle of a planet-sized wasteland.

 

I’m not quite sure what you mean with this, but what you mention seems to be more an issue related to poverty than anything else. That old chestnut. The misuse of varies commodities by marginalised groups has been a problem way before the internet and smartphones came about. That doesn't mean the commodity in question is inherently bad, be it drugs, alchohol or the internet.  

The outdoor/slow activities I suggested were of course not aimed at the homeless, but I think you know that already. They were meant as an example of how to counterbalance the intense immediacy of too much internet/computer usage that I've personally experienced, and which I think alot of people experience, and which in their extreme have negative mental effects of varying degree. These are problems directly related to the nature of instant gratification that technology/internet provides us with, often paired with more common problems like escapism, addiction, depression etc.

  

 

Yes, I'm sure big silicon valley conpanies are getting rich off of the homeless and mentally ill ... or are you suggesting that society at large is insane? ^^

 

 

isn't sweden the happiest country on earth? or is that denmark

 

Yeah, countries like Denmark and Sweden (Norway too I think) often register at the top of these lists which I think are based on things like access to health care and general standard of living. Should be called ”Most Priviliged Countries In The World.” Being northern European countries, Sweden and Denmark are culturally inclined to be somewhat restrained, reserved and, I dunno, aloof?. If you've lived here you'll know what I'm talking about! The Spanish or Italians as a people, seem way happier!      

[Alcofribas]

this thread really just needs to be more LUDD posts mixed with essiness gems a la “feminism dies when my dick gets hard.”

[goDel]

this thread really just needs to be more LUDD posts mixed with essiness gems a la “feminism dies when my dick gets hard.”

 

lol

 

damn i miss those posts

 

*prints feminism t-shirt*

[sheatheman]

i already marked LUDD as best post what more do yall want

[goDel]

multiple best posts, ranked by real-time measured lols

[YangYing]

isn't sweden the happiest country on earth? or is that denmark

I have lived in several places, Sweden currently.. people feel more energetic, more friendly the closer to the equator you are.. it sounds ludicrous but that's what I have learned. as for happiness.. that's such a broad term... people here don't feel any happier than anywhere else id say (discounting places like north korea etc but u get my point)

 

edit: as mentioned by @AJW above

Edited February 11, 2018 by MIXL2

[drukqs]

 You're either hurdling towards the hive mind, or retreating into the forests.

 

Have you played Inside yet? I feel like this game's basically about that.

 

[sheatheman]

yeah. i truly love that game and feel like playdead studios really understand my philosophy. ironic because i believe limbo and inside were both made on custom software (read: technology).

 

people that don't get those games don't realize the game itself is a vehicle for an mood essay. the goal of those games is to leave an imprint on you, leave you with a feeling that wont go away.

[zlemflolia]

By developing new technology that increases our abilities significantly, the old skills used for doing those tasks which the technology replaces atrophy both developmentally in children, and socially in the greater culture.  This is a good thing if the skill was merely a solution to a problem we once faced, for instance there's nothing wrong with creating washer machines and driers to alleviate the need to spend manpower washing and drying clothes, which is a frivolous task, since the human energy can now be spent elsewhere in more productive ways.  But when we replace skills and activities that people used to partake in with technology which weren't just frivolous tasks, for instance social interaction, then this is a serious problem.  Technological communication methods act as a great way to connect people who would otherwise not communicate, and as a crutch for people with other social issues, but it can also result in an atrophy of real world social skills.  This applies to many other skills as well, such as survival skills, cooking skills, foraging skills, farming skills, and things like this

 

As the human race becomes more advanced, tasks in their most efficient form become more and more specialized.  You can't just go become a farmer anymore.  You used to be able to but you can't anymore because you have to catch up to the other people doing it or you literally will just not make profit.  You need highly specialized equipment to compete and advanced techniques.  

 

These are all just smaller instances of the classic issue of the development of dependence on external technologies, or really dependence on anything external to the individual.  Dependence on society itself to function personally, dependence on other humans for social bonding and proper mood regulation.  Dependence on water for survival itself.  

 

You could say developing dependencies on external technologies is bad.  But it's also good in that it allows you to focus on other tasks and become more efficient overall at whatever you're trying to do

 

In software design, code reuse is a massively important practice to use since it avoids you reimplementing things that don't matter and wasting time.  You don't want to reinvent the wheel, and maybe accidentally reinvent it in a worse way than other people have already done it.  But you also don't want to adopt too many dependencies, or you enter "dependency hell".  A software situation where your own software you created depends on software others created, and they may stop maintaining it or support for it, if it's a web based service, may go away entirely, and your software similarly degrades in quality or stops working entirely.  

 

This applies to humans just as much.  This is why we need a balance.  You can't just say we should go back to the forests, because none of us really want to do that deep down inside.  if you want to - go do it.  You won't - you will bring modern conveniences with you.  But don't abandon them altogether either. 

 

We should maintain robust backwards compatible systems and build society in a way where if all this technology stopped working, we'd be fine.  Specialization results in amazing adaption and success in certain environments, but a lack of generalization and a wide array of skills to fall back on results in extinction.  This is a classic biological principle of evolution - over-specialization results in extinction, under-specialization results in being out-competed.  You need to strike a balance between both

 

Be capable of specializing in one area to out-compete, but also have skills to fall back on if that specialization becomes irrelevant, and be capable of picking up new specializations as needed

 

Obvious observations but relevant.  Sometimes I think when there are concepts like "A" which are important, but which also have a counterpoint "Not-A", and the majority embraces "A", there can be push-back on one side saying that we need "Not-A" instead, and while the pushback is completely valid, it can become extreme since it feels it needs to be since it's a minority position.  We need a mix of both.

[YangYing]

yea dat sounds reasonable

[perunamuusi]

this thread really just needs to be more LUDD posts mixed with essiness gems a la “feminism dies when my dick gets hard.”

 

I regularly use that Essines line IRL. More or less every time the word feminism is said. Pretty mixed results tbqh.

[autopilot]

id say ditch the notion of utopia entierly, I see no way of humanity getting there.. but hell what do I know

 

We just need to give more money to the state.  That'll make it happen!

 

 

Kidding, of course.  The real solution to the inherent suffering built into the fabric of existence is the integrity of the individual.

 

[joshuatxuk]

 

 

 

isn't sweden the happiest country on earth? or is that denmark

 

Yeah, countries like Denmark and Sweden (Norway too I think) often register at the top of these lists which I think are based on things like access to health care and general standard of living. Should be called ”Most Priviliged Countries In The World.” Being northern European countries, Sweden and Denmark are culturally inclined to be somewhat restrained, reserved and, I dunno, aloof?. If you've lived here you'll know what I'm talking about! The Spanish or Italians as a people, seem way happier!      

 

 

Dude, I can't find it but a Dane WATMMer pointrd out that "happy" poll is misleading. The way it was asked/translated actually is closer to "content" and not happy. Still highly ranked but less utopia vibes. Which makes sense because it gels with the cultural and social trends of Scandinavian countries. A good example is how people in those countries usually stand really far apart in queues and bus stations.

[joshuatxuk]

 

 

I have come to the point where I am convinced that a new luddism is necessary. There needs to be a louder voice questioning what the drive towards technological development is costing us as a species.

 

fast forward 2 years and content is worse than ever and i am more addicted than ever to the worst content ever. sad stuff. having a kid and raising him these past 18-19 months has made me realize just how hard it is to resist our species dark trend toward technological automation.

 

we really are caught in an ocean. we can say we are woke but in reality we are just clinging to the plastic flotilla.

 

i mean, where can we actually go? because physically we can't live without it. you give an indian slum family $$$ and the first thing they will do is wire themselves up for internet.

 

back before i had this job in contracting (project manager), and back before my son was born, i thought i had a better handle on it. i walked everywhere and ate minimally and had a pretty clear head for a long time.

 

now i just watch gordon ramsay clips passively with my eyes throbbing, and i drive 120 miles a day.

 

you....you embody it, you live it, and you are aware of it. I give you "thanks" for your sacrifice.

 

Damn this hit hard. Been similarly binging on content lately.

 

I only really feel shitty if it's news/current events stuff. But man I've been staving off sleep by farting around on reddit, here, and instragram instead of actually doing productive stuff or just sleeping. It's like an hour of just letting my brain going ADD. It's the escapism aspect. I have a kid too and it's like "me time" but really lazy mental junk me time.

 

Anyway, I feel bad. I backslided. I was really good about putting my phone down and actually reading books, watching movies, or doing my own hobbies. Or just home chores. I need to discipline myself back to optimizing my time, not squandering it. Back to moderation and focus. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by joshuatx

[YangYing]

^I'm exactly in this dilemma currently.. good luck

[chartnok]

 

 

 

 

isn't sweden the happiest country on earth? or is that denmark

 

Yeah, countries like Denmark and Sweden (Norway too I think) often register at the top of these lists which I think are based on things like access to health care and general standard of living. Should be called ”Most Priviliged Countries In The World.” Being northern European countries, Sweden and Denmark are culturally inclined to be somewhat restrained, reserved and, I dunno, aloof?. If you've lived here you'll know what I'm talking about! The Spanish or Italians as a people, seem way happier!      

 

 

Dude, I can't find it but a Dane WATMMer pointrd out that "happy" poll is misleading. The way it was asked/translated actually is closer to "content" and not happy. Still highly ranked but less utopia vibes. Which makes sense because it gels with the cultural and social trends of Scandinavian countries. A good example is how people in those countries usually stand really far apart in queues and bus stations.

 

 

This is true 

[Salvatorin]

one thing that is not mentioned often is the energy (and carbon) footprint that the exploding use of the internet and smartphones. I've been a fan of this website (lowtech magazine) for many years and it is interesting to see how they view the current situation.

 

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2018/09/how-to-build-a-lowtech-website.html

[sheatheman]

i'm telling you, in the future we are going to be on shortwave and sending txt documents over burst transmission. energy will be stored in adhoc batteries, because in the future making a battery will be an essential skill.

[goDel]

*goes to SJW conference with a "feminism dies when my dick gets hard" T-shirt and gets assaulted while filming it on my mobile phone*

[splbt]

all this talk about utopias is missing the point that the very concept of a utopia implies that the whatever-topia is unattainable

 

"The word comes from Greek: οὐ ("not") and τόπος ("place") and means "no-place", and strictly describes any non-existent society 'described in considerable detail'. However, in standard usage, the word's meaning has narrowed and now usually describes a non-existent society that is intended to be viewed as considerably better than contemporary society.[5] Eutopia, derived from Greek εὖ ("good" or "well") and τόπος ("place"), means "good place", and is strictly speaking the correct term to describe a positive utopia. In English, eutopia and utopia are homophonous, which may have given rise to the change in meaning." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia)

Edited October 1, 2018 by flexbert

[dingformung]

I tried having no internet at home (except slow phone internet with limited traffic) for a while and it sucked. It made me go to the library more often tho

[splbt]

^ had the same experience when I was without a computer for half a year. felt pretty good to read more/watch a limited supply of dvds, but I got more disconnected from what was going on in the world

[Salvatorin]

https://www.versobooks.com/books/2698-new-dark-age

 

i just got this book by james bridle and it uses a lot of different sources and histories to show how we need to take a more agential role in our interactions with technology. it's a very interesting read because it approaches our current state from many different angles.

 

 

 

“Over the last century, technological acceleration has transformed our planet, our societies, and ourselves, but it has failed to transform our understanding of these things. The reasons for this are complex, and the answers are complex too, not least because we ourselves are utterly enmeshed in technological systems, which shape in turn how we act and how we think. We cannot stand outside them; we cannot think without them.”

 

the following selection in the introduction i found to be very well put:

 

Our great failing in thinking the network up to now was to presume that its actions were inherent and inevitable. By inherent, I mean the notion that they emerged, ex nihilo, from the things we created rather than involving our own actions as part of that co-creation. By inevitable, I mean a belief in a direct line of technological and historical progress that we are powerless to resist. Such a belief has been repeatedly attacked by thinkers in the social sciences and philosophy for decades, yet it has not been defeated. Rather, it has been reified into technology itself: into machines that are supposed to carry out their own embedded desires. Thus we have abdicated our objections to linear progress, falling into the chasm of computational thinking.

 

The greatest carrier wave of progress for the last few centuries has been the central idea of the Enlightenment itself: that more knowledge – more information – leads to better decisions. For which one can, of course, substitute any concept of ‘better’ that one chooses. Despite the assaults of modernity and postmodernity, this core tenet has come to define not merely what is implemented, but what is even considered possible from new technologies. The internet, in its youth, was often referred to as an ‘information superhighway’, a conduit of knowledge that, in the flickering light of fibre-optic cables, enlightens the world. Any fact, any quantum of information, is available at the tap of a keyboard – or so we have led ourselves to believe.

 

And so we find ourselves today connected to vast repositories of knowledge, and yet we have not learned to think. In fact, the opposite is true: that which was intended to enlighten the world in practice darkens it. The abundance of information and the plurality of worldviews now accessible to us through the internet are not producing a coherent consensus reality, but one riven by fundamentalist insistence on simplistic narratives, conspiracy theories, and post-factual politics. It is on this contradiction that the idea of a new dark age turns: an age in which the value we have placed upon knowledge is destroyed by the abundance of that profitable commodity, and in which we look about ourselves in search of new ways to understand the world. In 1926, H. P. Lovecraft wrote,

 

“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

“How we understand and think our place in the world, and our relation to one another and to machines, will ultimately decide if madness or peace is where our technologies will take us. The darkness I write of is not a literal darkness, nor does it represent an absence or occlusion of knowledge, as the popular idea of a dark age holds. It is not an expression of nihilism or hopelessness. Rather, it refers to both the nature and the opportunity of the present crisis: an apparent inability to see clearly what is in front of us, and to act meaningfully, with agency and justice, in the world – and, through acknowledging this darkness, to seek new ways of seeing by another light.”

 

 

[sheatheman]

Salv, trying to see if I can get that book for kindle, lol.

[luke viia]

lol