caze Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 As an American, this is very confusing. Maybe different cultural norms? Why would anyone want rules and regulations made and enforced by people which have not been elected? Shouldn't this consideration override any short or midterm economic hardships? Fill me in. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but: EU citizens vote for their MEPs (Members of the European Parliament) who then delegate Commissioners. Commissioners come up with proposals, which are then reviewed by the European Parliament. The MEPs can decide to block, amend or accept the proposals (I'm not sure how unanimous a Parliament decision needs to be). The EU is not as undemocratic as some make it out to be, but I can see people getting upset over the idea of having to rely on several different foreign countries coming up with decisions that affect their own country. yeah, that's part of it. the EU setup is bicameral though, the council of europe is made up of the government ministers of the various countries, and can act as a final veto on laws passed by the parliament. so yeah, the EU isn't at all undemocratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Many people simply don't know how EU actually works (I must admit I have minimal knowledge too). Many people also don't give a damn about MEP elections. They ignore EU until there are big problems and then decides emotionally and uninformed. All that I have written above does not change the fact, though, that brexit was clearly a referendum about immigration and nationalism. And that is where EU clearly failed in the last couple of years. The refugee/migrant crisis was the main trigger for many people imo (though it is baffling that now it all seems to be about eastern Europe migrants?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
may be rude Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 As an American, this is very confusing. Maybe different cultural norms? Why would anyone want rules and regulations made and enforced by people which have not been elected? Shouldn't this consideration override any short or midterm economic hardships? Fill me in. yeah im feeling lucky that we dont do referendums here. seems like some shakespearean tragedy when politicians hype up a toxic option, then dont want responsibility for pushing it through, so they give it to the people, as though benevolently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caze Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 All that I have written above does not change the fact, though, that brexit was clearly a referendum about immigration and nationalism. And that is where EU clearly failed in the last couple of years. The refugee/migrant crisis was the main trigger for many people imo (though it is baffling that now it all seems to be about eastern Europe migrants?). Your first sentence is correct; your second is not, at least not in any objectively valid sense - in terms of the effect of migration on the economy, services, etc. Immigration into the UK has been responsible for economic growth, and a net surplus of tax revenue vs public service spending on those immigrants. And it has always been about eastern european migrants, before there was a flood of refugees and economic migrants from the middle east and africa in recent years there was still ignorant nationalistic bigotry across the UK, mainly directed at Poles, Bulgarians, Romanians, Latvians, and it was also about ex-colonial immigration from before that, from the sub-continent and from the caribbean, stretching back to the 60s. The only failure of the EU/remain campaign in relation to all of that is effectively pointing out how much of a load of shite it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azatoth Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Many people simply don't know how EU actually works (I must admit I have minimal knowledge too). Many people also don't give a damn about MEP elections. They ignore EU until there are big problems and then decides emotionally and uninformed. All that I have written above does not change the fact, though, that brexit was clearly a referendum about immigration and nationalism. And that is where EU clearly failed in the last couple of years. The refugee/migrant crisis was the main trigger for many people imo (though it is baffling that now it all seems to be about eastern Europe migrants?). The immigrants and refugees are the easy scapegoats, when the real culprit is the austerity measures levied all over Europe. But it's easier to distract the public from the status quo and blame it on the "other". Oldest trick in the book and people still fall for it. Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 - in terms of the effect of migration on the economy, services, etc. Immigration into the UK has been responsible for economic growth, and a net surplus of tax revenue vs public service spending on those immigrants. See, that is something that obviously is arguable. I have also heard Farage saying that the middle ground on this is that there was no significant effect on economy in either way - that it was kind of neutral (just an opinion by Farage, feel free to dispute it, will gladly consider both sides). If that is true (and I don't know that because I am not an economist so I cannot validate the findings myself and I have almost no knowledge about Britains economic situation) the important issue that remains is long-term security issues. To be frank, the economic side of immigration/refugee crisis is secondary to me anyway. What really matters to me is possibility of local fights, pogroms and civil wars in a couple of tens of years due to cultural clashes. That is all I care about atm when it comes to multiculturalism, nationalism, immigration/refugee crisis. That is long-term strategic problems that will cause huge suffering to people of all cultures in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Many people simply don't know how EU actually works (I must admit I have minimal knowledge too). Many people also don't give a damn about MEP elections. They ignore EU until there are big problems and then decides emotionally and uninformed. All that I have written above does not change the fact, though, that brexit was clearly a referendum about immigration and nationalism. And that is where EU clearly failed in the last couple of years. The refugee/migrant crisis was the main trigger for many people imo (though it is baffling that now it all seems to be about eastern Europe migrants?). The immigrants and refugees are the easy scapegoats, when the real culprit is the austerity measures levied all over Europe. But it's easier to distract the public from the status quo and blame it on the "other". Oldest trick in the book and people still fall for it. Sad. Can you explain more how austerity measures across EU have impact on average, uninformed voter? (genuine question) Many leave supporters were clear in voicing their opinions that they have issues with immigrants in the first place or that they don't really know why they voted that way. Or you mean: austerity measures -> unemployment -> frutration -> search for easy targets/solutions -> average leave supporter blames immigrants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ignatius Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 the politics of all this is crazy. this quick read spells out how people are pretty much painted into a corner. they're fucked. http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction. The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50? Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders? Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phudoshin Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 according to a friend who just traveled back from Ireland, they've already started spot checking people for explosives residue. this is not a good sign. My last trip out of country was to Japan in Sept - got the full chemical/body/metal scan they didn't didnt jack btw :P what are your thoughts about the danger to the Northern Ireland peace deals? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/northern-irish-peace-sacrificed-english-nationalism I'm an un-nationalistic schmo living in the way south of ireland.. so I kinda don't care about Norn Iron but am glad its been generally peacefull of course. I can't see em joining the south but they may get special deals like Scotland. dunno really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poblequadrat Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Always described abroad as a multicultural, educated country now showing its true face after the referendum? Verbal assaults against Poles and migrants from eastern EU while the Muslim community rises steadily? What a sad joke. Absolutely unbelievable and irrational. It's almost as if prejudices against certain ethnicities/religions/races aren't based on a rational foundation. Which is not what I said because some caution against certain religions and cultures is definitely rational and practical. And I haven't discussed ethnicities and races at all. So... Sit Down Man, You're a Bloody Tragedy © Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Always described abroad as a multicultural, educated country now showing its true face after the referendum? Verbal assaults against Poles and migrants from eastern EU while the Muslim community rises steadily? What a sad joke. Absolutely unbelievable and irrational. It's almost as if prejudices against certain ethnicities/religions/races aren't based on a rational foundation. Which is not what I said because some caution against certain religions and cultures is definitely rational and practical. And I haven't discussed ethnicities and races at all. So... Sit Down Man, You're a Bloody Tragedy © If you want me to pay attention to your posts any longer, you will have to present some arguments against my arguments. I am not interested in your uninformed shit-posting. You are just presenting your stupidity. The more triggered or mentally unstable (seemingly a WATMM trademark) people in debates about multiculturalism and immigration react like you are the more tragic the final result will be in the end for the both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
may be rude Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 some things, it's like, if i have to explain it to you, why should i even explain it to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poblequadrat Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Always described abroad as a multicultural, educated country now showing its true face after the referendum? Verbal assaults against Poles and migrants from eastern EU while the Muslim community rises steadily? What a sad joke. Absolutely unbelievable and irrational. It's almost as if prejudices against certain ethnicities/religions/races aren't based on a rational foundation. Which is not what I said because some caution against certain religions and cultures is definitely rational and practical. And I haven't discussed ethnicities and races at all. So... Sit Down Man, You're a Bloody Tragedy © If you want me to pay attention to your posts any longer, you will have to present some arguments against my arguments. I am not interested in your uninformed shit-posting. You are just presenting your stupidity. The more triggered or mentally unstable (seemingly a WATMM trademark) people in debates about multiculturalism and immigration react like you are the more tragic the final result will be in the end for the both sides. I think the only tragic result will come if we allow racists who discriminate against mentally ill people to freely participate in "debates" and have the chutzpah on top of that to think they get to define what the terms of the debate are. People with views like yours should be ostracised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azatoth Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Many people simply don't know how EU actually works (I must admit I have minimal knowledge too). Many people also don't give a damn about MEP elections. They ignore EU until there are big problems and then decides emotionally and uninformed. All that I have written above does not change the fact, though, that brexit was clearly a referendum about immigration and nationalism. And that is where EU clearly failed in the last couple of years. The refugee/migrant crisis was the main trigger for many people imo (though it is baffling that now it all seems to be about eastern Europe migrants?). The immigrants and refugees are the easy scapegoats, when the real culprit is the austerity measures levied all over Europe. But it's easier to distract the public from the status quo and blame it on the "other". Oldest trick in the book and people still fall for it. Sad. Can you explain more how austerity measures across EU have impact on average, uninformed voter? (genuine question) Many leave supporters were clear in voicing their opinions that they have issues with immigrants in the first place or that they don't really know why they voted that way. Or you mean: austerity measures -> unemployment -> frutration -> search for easy targets/solutions -> average leave supporter blames immigrants? Basically what you outlined in the last sentence. I guess seeing different people around and blaming all of societies problems on them is simpler than seeing the structures that keep the status quo of increasing wealth gap, stagnating wages, deconstruction of the welfare state all in the name of "growth". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 some things, it's like, if i have to explain it to you, why should i even explain it to you Are you talking to me? If yes, you should explain the things in order to give the other side a chance to understand your position. I am interested in all sorts of opinions. They are all important in the final context. My views are not black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
may be rude Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 some things, it's like, if i have to explain it to you, why should i even explain it to you Are you talking to me? If yes, you should explain the things in order to give the other side a chance to understand your position. I am interested in all sorts of opinions. They are all important in the final context. My views are not black and white. in order to answer your question, let me first ask you a question, in order to clarify. do you think it infringes on the rights of a person to not be able to own slaves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Always described abroad as a multicultural, educated country now showing its true face after the referendum? Verbal assaults against Poles and migrants from eastern EU while the Muslim community rises steadily? What a sad joke. Absolutely unbelievable and irrational. It's almost as if prejudices against certain ethnicities/religions/races aren't based on a rational foundation. Which is not what I said because some caution against certain religions and cultures is definitely rational and practical. And I haven't discussed ethnicities and races at all. So... Sit Down Man, You're a Bloody Tragedy © If you want me to pay attention to your posts any longer, you will have to present some arguments against my arguments. I am not interested in your uninformed shit-posting. You are just presenting your stupidity. The more triggered or mentally unstable (seemingly a WATMM trademark) people in debates about multiculturalism and immigration react like you are the more tragic the final result will be in the end for the both sides. I think the only tragic result will come if we allow racists who discriminate against mentally ill people to freely participate in "debates" and have the chutzpah on top of that to think they get to define what the terms of the debate are. People with views like yours should be ostracised. Hahaha! Well done! Now we know who is intolerant in this debate. Mr. IWillDecide has just spoken! Anyway, I didn't know mentally ill were a race. I also didn't know that I was discriminating mentally ill people as I have been taking care of one a big part of my life. I also didn't know that it is OK to ostracise some people and yet be against discrimination of any sort! Beautiful job, sir! You have made my day. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poblequadrat Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Always described abroad as a multicultural, educated country now showing its true face after the referendum? Verbal assaults against Poles and migrants from eastern EU while the Muslim community rises steadily? What a sad joke. Absolutely unbelievable and irrational. It's almost as if prejudices against certain ethnicities/religions/races aren't based on a rational foundation. Which is not what I said because some caution against certain religions and cultures is definitely rational and practical. And I haven't discussed ethnicities and races at all. So... Sit Down Man, You're a Bloody Tragedy © If you want me to pay attention to your posts any longer, you will have to present some arguments against my arguments. I am not interested in your uninformed shit-posting. You are just presenting your stupidity. The more triggered or mentally unstable (seemingly a WATMM trademark) people in debates about multiculturalism and immigration react like you are the more tragic the final result will be in the end for the both sides. I think the only tragic result will come if we allow racists who discriminate against mentally ill people to freely participate in "debates" and have the chutzpah on top of that to think they get to define what the terms of the debate are. People with views like yours should be ostracised. Hahaha! Well done! Now we know who is intolerant in this debate. Mr. IWillDecide has just spoken! Anyway, I didn't know mentally ill were a race. I also didn't know that I was discriminating mentally ill people as I have been taking care of one a big part of my life. I also didn't know that it is OK to ostracise some people and yet be against discrimination of any sort! Beautiful job, sir! You have made my day. Thanks! I'm not a sir, you fucking fascist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 some things, it's like, if i have to explain it to you, why should i even explain it to you Are you talking to me? If yes, you should explain the things in order to give the other side a chance to understand your position. I am interested in all sorts of opinions. They are all important in the final context. My views are not black and white. in order to answer your question, let me first ask you a question, in order to clarify. do you think it infringes on the rights of a person to not be able to own slaves? Are you seriously asking? OK. Hopefully my answer will be absolutely clear. I am against slavery. Very interested to see where this is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Always described abroad as a multicultural, educated country now showing its true face after the referendum? Verbal assaults against Poles and migrants from eastern EU while the Muslim community rises steadily? What a sad joke. Absolutely unbelievable and irrational. It's almost as if prejudices against certain ethnicities/religions/races aren't based on a rational foundation. Which is not what I said because some caution against certain religions and cultures is definitely rational and practical. And I haven't discussed ethnicities and races at all. So... Sit Down Man, You're a Bloody Tragedy © If you want me to pay attention to your posts any longer, you will have to present some arguments against my arguments. I am not interested in your uninformed shit-posting. You are just presenting your stupidity. The more triggered or mentally unstable (seemingly a WATMM trademark) people in debates about multiculturalism and immigration react like you are the more tragic the final result will be in the end for the both sides. I think the only tragic result will come if we allow racists who discriminate against mentally ill people to freely participate in "debates" and have the chutzpah on top of that to think they get to define what the terms of the debate are. People with views like yours should be ostracised. Hahaha! Well done! Now we know who is intolerant in this debate. Mr. IWillDecide has just spoken! Anyway, I didn't know mentally ill were a race. I also didn't know that I was discriminating mentally ill people as I have been taking care of one a big part of my life. I also didn't know that it is OK to ostracise some people and yet be against discrimination of any sort! Beautiful job, sir! You have made my day. Thanks! I'm not a sir, you fucking fascist. Please, together with the word "racism" also look up a word "fascism". Thanks again, sir, madam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcofribas Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Always described abroad as a multicultural, educated country now showing its true face after the referendum? Verbal assaults against Poles and migrants from eastern EU while the Muslim community rises steadily? What a sad joke. Absolutely unbelievable and irrational. It's almost as if prejudices against certain ethnicities/religions/races aren't based on a rational foundation. Which is not what I said because some caution against certain religions and cultures is definitely rational and practical. And I haven't discussed ethnicities and races at all. So... Sit Down Man, You're a Bloody Tragedy © If you want me to pay attention to your posts any longer, you will have to present some arguments against my arguments. I am not interested in your uninformed shit-posting. You are just presenting your stupidity. The more triggered or mentally unstable (seemingly a WATMM trademark) people in debates about multiculturalism and immigration react like you are the more tragic the final result will be in the end for the both sides. I think the only tragic result will come if we allow racists who discriminate against mentally ill people to freely participate in "debates" and have the chutzpah on top of that to think they get to define what the terms of the debate are. People with views like yours should be ostracised. Hahaha! Well done! Now we know who is intolerant in this debate. Mr. IWillDecide has just spoken! Anyway, I didn't know mentally ill were a race. I also didn't know that I was discriminating mentally ill people as I have been taking care of one a big part of my life. I also didn't know that it is OK to ostracise some people and yet be against discrimination of any sort! Beautiful job, sir! You have made my day. Thanks! I'm not a sir, you fucking fascist. Please, together with the word "racism" also look up a word "fascism". Thanks again, sir, madam! dude, in addition to your "cultural" bs/ racism, you've taken to disparaging mental illness and referred to a transgendered watmmer as "sir." just don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I think watmm has had enough "Jev" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triachus Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WNS000 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 stuff dude, in addition to your "cultural" bs/ racism, you've taken to disparaging mental illness and referred to a transgendered watmmer as "sir." just don't. lol! I think watmm has had enough "Jev" I am not sure if this is going to do the trick in the discussion... I mean, how pathetic was that, Stephen? Are you really that interested in showing off how desperately uninformed and harmless in debates you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Mughnus Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I don't debate on watmm. I come here for fun. You've insulted enough members that it's time for you to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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