the watmm GAS thread

[TubularCorporation]

@sweepstakes agree on RY30 and other oldschool sequencers. They seem to have much more advanced sequencers back then (more based on building songs) rather than current sequencers which are more focused on building small phrases/loops

 

Pretty sure HAB drum sequencing is an RY30

 

Yeah, with a few exceptions (Midibox, aspects of the Elektron stuff, probably a handful of other things I don't know about) dedicated hardware sequencers have mostly been moving backwards since the mid to late 90s when computers really became the default. I've never had the chance to use one but I'm guessing the MC4000 was really the swan song of deep hardware sequencing. It seems like the handful of really good contemporary hardware sequencers are very focused on specific aspects of sequencing, but I can't really think of a single general purpose sequencer being made today.  Probably some of those expensive workstation and arranger keyboards that nobody really talks about are still doing it but even then I can't imagine them being much deeper than they were in the 90s as far as sequencing goes.

 

Honestly, even in software I can't think of much today that's as deep as the programmable arranger and pattern sequencer (and that's not even touching on the more standard 16 track sequencer) in the Korg i30 I bought for $50 at a thrift shop a couple years ago, but arrangers in general are completely under the radar because of what they were marketed for. Sure they're SUPPOSED to be used for cheesy auto accompaniment type stuff but the potential for creative misuse is incredible, I've barely even scratched the surface - I can't even imagine what the Technics arrangers are like, since they're apparently the really deep ones. Good luck finding any demos or tutorials or anything that aren't absolutely terrible, though (other than middle eastern music).  It's always interesting how fashion is usually more important than actual functionality.

 

This Phil Tipping video is literally the only thing I've found on Youtube with someone using an arranger for anything particularly creative, and even it is really basic (although it has a nice kind of Bruce Haack vibe to it):

 

[sweepstakes]

@sweepstakes agree on RY30 and other oldschool sequencers. They seem to have much more advanced sequencers back then (more based on building songs) rather than current sequencers which are more focused on building small phrases/loops

 

Pretty sure HAB drum sequencing is an RY30

Yup... maybe there's some niche things like the Pyramid or Cirklon (haven't used them myself so can't vouch) but it does seem like most of what's out there now is a lot more simplistic and less ambitious. Even the Elektrons are limited in a lot of ways (although they're ridiculously powerful in others).

 

I could totally see HAB being sequenced by an RY30, although I always thought it was done in Cubase. That early drill n bass like Squarepusher had such a great flavor that probably owed a lot to drum machines. Lunatic Harness also had a decent amount of RY30 in it, Cichlisuite had a little bit and obviously We R Are Why? as well.

 

Another nice thing about the RY30, much like a lot of 80s & 90s Yamaha, was the MIDI spec. You not only were able to transmit something like 5 CCs per note, you could also set it up to respond to several channels multitimbrally. So if I remember right, you could have one channel assigned to a drum kit, and then you could have another channel doing bass, and then you could have each on their own output, or on the master stereo. I think this is how a lot of the We R Are Why was done, with the synth voices going into their own channel with some reverb. It's nice when stuff can do double duty like that, it encourages you to approach it differently and try out things you wouldn't otherwise.

[sweepstakes]

 It's always interesting how fashion is usually more important than actual functionality.

I see this effect so much, maybe just now that I'm older and my perception of time and popularity is so much different. In a way this is kind of discouraging and it's easy to see the world as a bunch of vapid sheep. In another sense, it's encouraging because it seems like if your timing is right, and you've got some chops, and you're good at "marketing" or whatever, you can just recycle some good ideas that have gone out of fashion and almost everyone thinks you're a mad genius.

[modey]

I think the simplicity of most modern hardware sequencers is due to them being a lot more focused on live manipulation than the song-based/linear sequencers of the 80s/90s. I'm fine with this; I honestly can't stand the older hardware sequencers (even the QY series) because they don't seem to be anywhere near as quick to compose with as tracker software is (for me at least).. and even then, it's pretty much just a matter of pressing play with them—there's no real possibility for live manipulation of note data, or if they do allow some level of manipulation, TR-style sequencers go way above that..

[sweepstakes]

I mostly agree although I think it's kind of a false dichotomy. Seems to me like the Elektron way is just an tracker-inspired, evolved version of classic x0x sequencing. Works beautifully for techno drums or for sequencing effects, but I do think it falls flat for most other uses. It's kind of crap for melodies, for example - you can always do Stupid Arpeggiator Tricks, and that's good fun, but it's hard (at least for me) to come up with emotionally engaging melodies that way. Whereas with a keyboard, a monosynth, and a sequencer that can record whatever I play and mute/unmute tracks (a la MPC) the melodic ideas just flow out of me, and then the real effort seems to be in corralling them, splitting them up, finding the best phrasing. Seems like you should be able to have your cake and eat it too but I haven't seen that actually implemented before.

[modey]

Yeah, I admit it's definitely more geared towards some genres than others. I love making techno on elektron gear, but wouldn't even think of attempting to write one of my linear prog tracks on such a sequencer. It's definitely possible, but I'd probably end up using up an entire snapshot/project on one song, lol.

 

For the record, I admit it is a bit more of a challenge to come up with engaging melodies on elektron gear, but I am slowly getting used to it. For example, I quite like slowing the OT's MIDI tracks down to 1/4 or 1/8 speed and punching in super slow ambient melodies, or programming something fast and repurposing it to work slowed down.

[kausto]

I don't have any problems with getting emotionally engaging melodies from OT. I often just use chromatic mode on buttons, jam like on tracker qwerty-style and record it.

[Guest Chesney]

I don't find it hard either, Although they do make you write to the length so you get headstuck in that loop.

i like to mix it up get some main melody elements running on say the A4 and play other progressing melodies of longer length over the top.

[flacid]

I think I'll likely get a Rytm at some point mainly just to see whether it can do what I think it can. The older drum machines always seem cool but the only one I've ever really liked is the 606. Mainly looking for something that can really fuck with drum sounds. Anyone notice how the retrig on the Monomachine feels a lot sharper than on the Octatrack? Like more instantaneous? Probably full of shit... 

[Guest Chesney]

Not noticed the retrig to be honest.

I guess i'm similar, always wanted drums to be fully manipulative not just static sounds throughout so drum machines never really did anything for me. Drum synthesis and sampling, absolutely.

[kausto]

I use Sonic Potions LXR and i'm almost happy with it.

[TubularCorporation]

I think the simplicity of most modern hardware sequencers is due to them being a lot more focused on live manipulation than the song-based/linear sequencers of the 80s/90s. I'm fine with this; I honestly can't stand the older hardware sequencers (even the QY series) because they don't seem to be anywhere near as quick to compose with as tracker software is (for me at least).. and even then, it's pretty much just a matter of pressing play with them—there's no real possibility for live manipulation of note data, or if they do allow some level of manipulation, TR-style sequencers go way above that..

 

This is what I was getting at when I said modern hardware sequencers tend to focus on a smaller range of things but (the good ones at least) do them really well.

 

On the other hand, I've never gotten to use them but some of the late 80s sequencers (Kawai was doing this a lot, I think) had some performance features related to chaining and triggering phrases in real time that you still hardly ever see.

 

 

I think the biggest difference is that before dance music and x0x style sequencing went mainstream in the mid 90s, sequencers were aimed more at instrumentalists than producers, so the performance features are different. Modern sequencers tend to have more in common with drum machines than with traditional sequencers.  One isn't necessarily better than the other, they just have different purposes.  IT definitely seems like there's pretty consistently a trade-off between being inspiring and playable vs. having a lot of depth when it comes to sequencing, though.  I keep bringing up Elektron partly because the Octatrack is pretty new to me so it's fresh in my mind, but it's also a really good example of this - it's one of the most inspiring sequencers I've ever worked with but it's also really, really basic (it's the sampling engine and especially the openendedness of the overall workflow and how things interact that are where the depth is in this thing, the sequencer itself takes about half an hour to know pretty much inside and out, other than getting real muscle memory of all of the keypresses for different functions which just takes repetition and time like any other instrument).

 

I do wish there was something out there that had the real-time manipulation possibilities that Elektron stuff and the Midibox sequencer get in to (to be honest I still haven't finished building the Midibox SEQ so I'm basing my opinions of it on the documentation and demos I've seen, the actual workflow might be a mess in practice for all I know) but also had the linear sequencing depth of the older hardware sequencers. Something as simple as recording a polyphonic keyboard part and have it play back the same way you played it in is impossible on a lot of the best modern sequencers I've used, although I'm sure the few remaining workstation keyboards are fine in that area. I don't know, I guess something like the RS7000 is probably the closest to what I'm talking about on the sequencing side but that's getting near 20 years old now. Software seems to have completely taken over though, and I guess it makes sense that it did.  Personally between the OT and the MPC2000xl I don't feel like I need anything else for sequencing but it's still interesting looking at how things have evolved over the years.

 

 

EDIT: I've had no trouble so far on the OT with engaging melodies as long as they're monophonic (although so far I've just been playing them straight from the trig buttons, so I usually have to go back and manually edit velocity to get things to really sound right), but anything with more than one note sounding at the same time gets a lot trickier.  It's definitely more of a sample manipulator with built in sequencing than a sequencer with built in sampling, if that makes sense.  Actually the closest comparison I can come up with is the "x0x style sequencer with a VP-9000" setup that I was already working on when I came into enough money to get the Octatrack.  Obviously a lot better in terms of live manipulation since you can't sample in real time at all with the VP (it's timestretch is still worth keeping it around, though, the OT holds its own against stuff like Ableton for clean time and pitch manipulation but the VP9000 is still by far the most natural sounding I've used to this day, hardware or software; if I ever need to get a new master keyboard some day I'll probably look for a V-synth just to have that timestretching in a more flexible environment).

Edited June 1, 2017 by RSP

[TubularCorporation]

On the other hand, some of the most inspiring sequencing for me is on really simple, SH-101 style mono step sequencers.

[auxien]

I think I'll likely get a Rytm at some point mainly just to see whether it can do what I think it can. The older drum machines always seem cool but the only one I've ever really liked is the 606. Mainly looking for something that can really fuck with drum sounds. Anyone notice how the retrig on the Monomachine feels a lot sharper than on the Octatrack? Like more instantaneous? Probably full of shit...

If you have any specific questions about the Rytm or want to see/hear specific sounds or functionality, just let me know.

[flacid]

 

I think I'll likely get a Rytm at some point mainly just to see whether it can do what I think it can. The older drum machines always seem cool but the only one I've ever really liked is the 606. Mainly looking for something that can really fuck with drum sounds. Anyone notice how the retrig on the Monomachine feels a lot sharper than on the Octatrack? Like more instantaneous? Probably full of shit...

If you have any specific questions about the Rytm or want to see/hear specific sounds or functionality, just let me know.

 

 

- Really I just want to see someone really twist up the retrigs so I can hear what it's capable of. Going to sell my 101 + 606. 

[auxien]

  - Really I just want to see someone really twist up the retrigs so I can hear what it's capable of. Going to sell my 101 + 606. 

 

 

Goes on a bit long and I should've turned down the music in relation to how loud my voice came out on the recording, but oh well, I think you'll get the idea. If I forgot something regarding the retrigs someone let me know.

[modey]

nice! It's good to see that they've got a drum synth with retrig, not just for sampled sounds like on the MD/MnM. I'd love to have retrig for synth sounds on the monomachine.. but then again I guess the arp can come close for that.

[flacid]

 

  - Really I just want to see someone really twist up the retrigs so I can hear what it's capable of. Going to sell my 101 + 606. 

 

 

Goes on a bit long and I should've turned down the music in relation to how loud my voice came out on the recording, but oh well, I think you'll get the idea. If I forgot something regarding the retrigs someone let me know.

 

 

 

Wicked, cheers for this. Appreciate you taking the time out to put it together. I like the length possibilities with the retrigs, could work well with an LFO (if you can send them to retrig info?) That loop/track you were putting together for this example is really good by the way, you planning to use it for a track? 

 

Got my 101, Sherman Filterbank and maybe my 606 going up on Ebay so will hopefully be able to get a Rytm soon 

[Guest Chesney]

Damn, don't get rid of the sherm!

 

101 and 606 yeah, whatever ha

[auxien]

Wicked, cheers for this. Appreciate you taking the time out to put it together. I like the length possibilities with the retrigs, could work well with an LFO (if you can send them to retrig info?) That loop/track you were putting together for this example is really good by the way, you planning to use it for a track?

 

Got my 101, Sherman Filterbank and maybe my 606 going up on Ebay so will hopefully be able to get a Rytm soon

Yeah no problem, I've been considering trying to do some videos like that anyway so it was a good excuse. You can't directly control retrigs via LFO, but you could easily set up conditionally trigged p-locks that behave similarly/randomly.... You could also use LFO to control something like start time, attack, velocity, or volume, and with the right sounds/settings it could simulate the LFO controlling the note/drum trigger. Those are difficult in my experience to pull off well. Live recording the retrig changing velocity and speed can also simulate LFO behavior, especially if you lengthen or shorten that sound's pattern length in relation to the rest of the loop. All of these are possible.

 

Also yeah I've heard good things about the filter bank! But they're expensive so if you need the cash for a Rytm I can't blame you :)

 

And the bass/melody is something I've been kicking around but never gone anywhere...the drums were thrown together in literally two minutes. Lol. But glad it wasn't half bad

[flacid]

Andertons (UK) offer a no interest loan so I'm now paying off around £100 per month for the next 9 months... #rytm 

[Guest Chesney]

Ah cool! 

Probably best, I could have been tempted by your sherm.

[flacid]

It's one of those things I don't really use but would regret if I sold tbf

[auxien]

Sounds like you got a good deal on the Rytm...try running it through the Sherman and let us hear it, I bet it could be pretty sweet.

[Auditor]

Just bought a used Sub 37 for $1,100.00 

 

It'l be my third analog mono after a BSII (recently sold) and a Minibrute. I plan on keeping this one, but that's what I always say...