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the watmm GAS thread


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Guest Chesney

Of course but I like the idea of going straight from mixer outs or comp straight to wav somehow bypassing the pro40 and logic again. This is deluded I know.

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With any of this stuff, especially extra magic mixing tricks like OTB summing, I think the question you should ask yourself is 'is my music so good that this is the last thing it needs to be perfect'. If that is ever true then you'd be justified in spending the time, money and energy on it. Otherwise I'd work on your song writing/sound design etc using what you have already.  

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Guest Chesney

That's in the eye of the beholder and it's their business how much they invest in their hobbies and interests ;)

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With any of this stuff, especially extra magic mixing tricks like OTB summing, I think the question you should ask yourself is 'is my music so good that this is the last thing it needs to be perfect'. If that is ever true then you'd be justified in spending the time, money and energy on it. Otherwise I'd work on your song writing/sound design etc using what you have already.  

 

yes it is good enough.

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yeah same lol, which is why I'm hoping to learn arduino/teensy programming so I can make my own instead :P

 

I just haven't been able to find any other sequencer that can do what I want, without having to spend a ton of money (analog 4) or buy multiples of the same item (sq-1). Beatstep pro comes close but it's not *quite* what I want.

I found some tutorials on how to do analog input and analog output. Not sure about how to adapt this stuff so that it'll work with Eurorack voltages though. :)

Keep me posted guys :) I am gearing up to get my own first semi-modular (not counting the microbrute because it's frankly a little boring for that purpose). This seems like a fine time to brush up on Arduino.

 

 

I did some googling and found an ADC-DAC for Raspberry Pi. Electronics noob me is thinking that a maximum sample rate of 100k/s and 12 bits should be pretty good for starters. It does say with a Pi 2 and Python the max rate is only 12k/s though. Maybe it's possible to do better with a Pi 3, a some C code for GPIO support in Pure Data. In any case, if my mathematics are correct, 12k samples per second should be good enough for signals up to 6kHz, and that's the lower bound. Only 2 inputs and 2 outputs though, and I don't even know where to start with trying to convert all the voltages to Eurorack format in order to properly interface with a real modular. The OWL modular open source schematics might be a good start.

All this seems so far out of my depth though, I think I'll probably stick to a USB interface or an Audio Injector for my Raspberry Pi and leave the microscheming to experts.

Edited by thawkins
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In GAS news though I found a Pure Data "clone" of Moog Werkstatt which I copied over the weekend. I still don't understand all of it, but it sounds pretty good to me and it was an interesting experience to build. Unfortunately doesn't work on the Raspberry Pi yet because the blosc externals seem to not work.

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yeah same lol, which is why I'm hoping to learn arduino/teensy programming so I can make my own instead :P

 

I just haven't been able to find any other sequencer that can do what I want, without having to spend a ton of money (analog 4) or buy multiples of the same item (sq-1). Beatstep pro comes close but it's not *quite* what I want.

I found some tutorials on how to do analog input and analog output. Not sure about how to adapt this stuff so that it'll work with Eurorack voltages though. :)

Keep me posted guys :) I am gearing up to get my own first semi-modular (not counting the microbrute because it's frankly a little boring for that purpose). This seems like a fine time to brush up on Arduino.

 

 

I did some googling and found an ADC-DAC for Raspberry Pi. Electronics noob me is thinking that a maximum sample rate of 100k/s and 12 bits should be pretty good for starters. It does say with a Pi 2 and Python the max rate is only 12k/s though. Maybe it's possible to do better with a Pi 3, a some C code for GPIO support in Pure Data. In any case, if my mathematics are correct, 12k samples per second should be good enough for signals up to 6kHz, and that's the lower bound. Only 2 inputs and 2 outputs though, and I don't even know where to start with trying to convert all the voltages to Eurorack format in order to properly interface with a real modular. The OWL modular open source schematics might be a good start.

All this seems so far out of my depth though, I think I'll probably stick to a USB interface or an Audio Injector for my Raspberry Pi and leave the microscheming to experts.

 

Hmm doesn't Python kind of suck for audio? I used it for some MIDI stuff a while back and I realllly felt the jitters on the RPi - I can't recommend it. Just my experience with it and it's very possible that I was just doing it the wrong way, like maybe there's other libraries for it. Yeah C would be a better choice (although it's not everyone's cup of tea to code in) or even node has quite good performance these days, and probably has packages to give you a head start.

Pure data sounds promising too.

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Hmm doesn't Python kind of suck for audio? I used it for some MIDI stuff a while back and I realllly felt the jitters on the RPi - I can't recommend it. Just my experience with it and it's very possible that I was just doing it the wrong way, like maybe there's other libraries for it. Yeah C would be a better choice (although it's not everyone's cup of tea to code in) or even node has quite good performance these days, and probably has packages to give you a head start.

 

 

Pure data sounds promising too.

 

 

Pure Data is also written in C, so it should be possible to get good performance out of that. Python can actually be good, because it's written in C. I think the jitters on the Pi might easily be caused by the OS itself if it's not running on a realtime kernel. I wouldn't attempt writing low level code like that myself, it's better to use stuff already made by people who know what they're doing.

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Hmm doesn't Python kind of suck for audio? I used it for some MIDI stuff a while back and I realllly felt the jitters on the RPi - I can't recommend it. Just my experience with it and it's very possible that I was just doing it the wrong way, like maybe there's other libraries for it. Yeah C would be a better choice (although it's not everyone's cup of tea to code in) or even node has quite good performance these days, and probably has packages to give you a head start.

 

 

 

 

Pure data sounds promising too.

 

Pure Data is also written in C, so it should be possible to get good performance out of that. Python can actually be good, because it's written in C. I think the jitters on the Pi might easily be caused by the OS itself if it's not running on a realtime kernel. I wouldn't attempt writing low level code like that myself, it's better to use stuff already made by people who know what they're doing.

PD is optimized for real time performance though. I think the bottleneck with Python isn't the bits where it calls the optimized C DSP code but the plumbing between. I got relatively crappy performance in Python even with an RTC. I like node because you can leverage the performance of v8 and you also get access to a very rich package ecosystem and a great package manager. Plus I just find Javascript comfortable but you may not.

 

That said, there's a hardware add-on for the Pi that gives you an RTC and you can patch the kernel to use that instead of the jittery network clock. Might be a lot of trouble to get it to work though and it might not make much difference.

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Python can actually be good, because it's written in C.

[pedantry]You mean that the reference implementation is written in C - there are others.[/pedantry]. Perhaps relevant to this thread, there's PyPy, which reportedly runs a lot of code significantly faster than CPython. I haven't had much luck getting it working myself because last time I tried it didn't play nicely with tkinter, but it's probably worth a shot if you want to write non-GUI real-time audio code in Python.

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hw world is too fakn frustrating for me! every day, for the last 30-40 days i've been trying to find an interesting hw effect to accompany my md&mnm and i just can't find anything worth the money that i already don't have as a vst or that i couldn't find as a vst, or that it be cool to have in hw form. i must be somehow deranged :) maybe i'm just spoiled by the vast possibilities of the sw world? dunno!

ok, i've bought a zoom-ms70cdr stereo pedal with 137 onboard efx, it's really great and i need it for live but now i want something less 'basic', something 'crazy' and versatile, i need some great fakn tits to squeeze, to feel the juice!...you know what i mean ;)

so far only a wmd geiger counter and vermona retroverb/filter lancet managed to increase my heart rate for 2-3 bpms, in my budget. i was also thinking about buying a waldorf 2-pole; it seems to be quite fun and the price is good but i'd buy it later if i decide to buy the geiger counter, as a supplement casue the gc sometimes needs filters that could tame it; although i'm not a fan of 2-pole filters, it's good enough; i much prefer 4-poles, like the vermona.

i thought that i could buy the filter lancet instead of retroverb lancet but maybe it's better to add (just) another 100 euros so i could have a pretty solid spring reverb too. the retroverb lancet is 475 euros incl vat and shipping and that's all i can spend atm.

also, i don't need another hw synth atm. ...and i hate 19 inch rack units.

 

so, any thoughts? or recommendations? 

 

p.s. i'm not thinking about the upcoming pro version of the gc cause it's going to be too expensive and i don't need presets nor a blend knob and i'd buy the 2-pole anyway, so i don't need its lpf either. and it's still only mono anyway :faceplam

Edited by xox
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What are you looking to do? Something that totally fucks up the audio? By the sounds of it an 'all in one' piece of software that modulates reverb, delays, other effects etc would be best? 

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What are you looking to do? Something that totally fucks up the audio? By the sounds of it an 'all in one' piece of software that modulates reverb, delays, other effects etc would be best? 

 

i already have that itb... lots of vst, max/msp or supercollider if i'm really crazy that day. also, i have mostly what you say in the zoom pedal; 137 efx 6 of which can be combined in a single preset.

but yes, i need a hw that can do something interesting to the signal., hw cause i'd take it with me to gigs and for a change i want to turn physical, real pots.

 

the gc do just that, fucks up the audio but i'm afraid it could be a one trick pony. the retroverb lancet doesn't destroy the signal but it still fucks the signal only with much more love than the gc, it has nice sounding filters and an extensive modulation + spring reverb. but do i need filters and modulation when i have mnm and md? ...that have 34 programmable lfos in total. the ''nice sounding'' part could outweigh the money.

 

speaking of working at home, geiger counter is the only efx in my budget that i couldn't replace with a sw; no such vst and i'm not that knowledgeable in max and sc programming. it's questionable if i can find a vst substitute for the lancet, i have the drop and other modulation plugs, not sure.

 

i'm only thinking about any of these cause i have 400-450 euros to spend. i don't need anything really. i'm sure i could gig with only my mnm for the next 20 yrs and in the next 20 only with md. but hey, gas took my soul ;) i haven't bought a thing in a month :)

Edited by xox
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Hmm doesn't Python kind of suck for audio? I used it for some MIDI stuff a while back and I realllly felt the jitters on the RPi - I can't recommend it. Just my experience with it and it's very possible that I was just doing it the wrong way, like maybe there's other libraries for it. Yeah C would be a better choice (although it's not everyone's cup of tea to code in) or even node has quite good performance these days, and probably has packages to give you a head start.

 

 

 

 

Pure data sounds promising too.

Pure Data is also written in C, so it should be possible to get good performance out of that. Python can actually be good, because it's written in C. I think the jitters on the Pi might easily be caused by the OS itself if it's not running on a realtime kernel. I wouldn't attempt writing low level code like that myself, it's better to use stuff already made by people who know what they're doing.

PD is optimized for real time performance though. I think the bottleneck with Python isn't the bits where it calls the optimized C DSP code but the plumbing between. I got relatively crappy performance in Python even with an RTC. I like node because you can leverage the performance of v8 and you also get access to a very rich package ecosystem and a great package manager. Plus I just find Javascript comfortable but you may not.

 

That said, there's a hardware add-on for the Pi that gives you an RTC and you can patch the kernel to use that instead of the jittery network clock. Might be a lot of trouble to get it to work though and it might not make much difference.

 

 

Wow, thanks for the tip! I had no idea that the Pi did not have an internal clock source. I figured it would be enough to install a real-time capable kernel or just follow the wiki here. I decided not to start with any soldering and instead experiment with an USB interface bass multieffects pedal I have laying around. If that works well, I can get a 4in4out USB interface and use that for any mangling effects I have in mind.

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Wow, thanks for the tip! I had no idea that the Pi did not have an internal clock source. I figured it would be enough to install a real-time capable kernel or just follow the wiki here. I decided not to start with any soldering and instead experiment with an USB interface bass multieffects pedal I have laying around. If that works well, I can get a 4in4out USB interface and use that for any mangling effects I have in mind.

No sweat! Yeah, it's kind of weird, isn't it? I guess it makes sense that they'd go that way to make it cheaper and better meet the goals of the project. But it's definitely a gotcha when you see all these educational robotics projects and whatnot for it but they're working with this crappy clock. Like, doesn't robotics often require precise timing? Oh well, I could be talking out my ass here.

Edited by sweepstakes
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Python can actually be good, because it's written in C.

[pedantry]You mean that the reference implementation is written in C - there are others.[/pedantry]. Perhaps relevant to this thread, there's PyPy, which reportedly runs a lot of code significantly faster than CPython. I haven't had much luck getting it working myself because last time I tried it didn't play nicely with tkinter, but it's probably worth a shot if you want to write non-GUI real-time audio code in Python.

 

 

Yeah I did abstract away all the other Python implementations, sorry. It seems though that there is significantly less software available for the Raspberry Pi (because of the CPU architecture differences), so right now my gut feeling says to stick to the 'known good' stuff (like Python and Pure Data), even though they might not perform as well.

 

By the way, does anyone know what's the ideal Linux distribution to use for audio-oriented Raspberry Pi stuff? I know there's Satellite CCRMA, but that seems to be oriented towards the "smaller" Pis (I think I also read the maintainer saying that he won't support the bigger ones). There's also PdPi, which is recommended by the l2ork people and specifically oriented towards the Pi, but it seems to be 4 years old and doesn't actually fit on a 8GB SD card. Not sure it'll work with the model B model 3 that I have either.

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Continuing my search for an 88-key thing that can fuck with samples, I have stumbled upon an Alesis Fusion for $600 and a Kurzweil 2500XS for $850. I know the latter is obviously the better choice, but I'm wondering if the Fusion may be worth considering

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Wow, thanks for the tip! I had no idea that the Pi did not have an internal clock source. I figured it would be enough to install a real-time capable kernel or just follow the wiki here. I decided not to start with any soldering and instead experiment with an USB interface bass multieffects pedal I have laying around. If that works well, I can get a 4in4out USB interface and use that for any mangling effects I have in mind.

No sweat! Yeah, it's kind of weird, isn't it? I guess it makes sense that they'd go that way to make it cheaper and better meet the goals of the project. But it's definitely a gotcha when you see all these educational robotics projects and whatnot for it but they're working with this crappy clock. Like, doesn't robotics often require precise timing? Oh well, I could be talking out my ass here.

 

 

From what I've read, it seems that real-time stuff isn't that important unless you're really trying to run systems that depend on it, like industrial automation maybe? The hobby robot stuff probably has less tolerances for latency and programming is easier if there's no requirement that your code is will always finish execution in X seconds and doesn't hold up any critical resources - if this happens on a factory assembly line, you'd probably have a huge accident. So I'm not actually sure if adding real-time capability to the Pi will have any significant result, because even if you run it without a graphical user interface, there's shitloads of things that go on inside the operating system that will slow things down and make response times longer. So it makes more sense to me to first disable all that unnecessary stuff and then think about real-time.

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Continuing my search for an 88-key thing that can fuck with samples, I have stumbled upon an Alesis Fusion for $600 and a Kurzweil 2500XS for $850. I know the latter is obviously the better choice, but I'm wondering if the Fusion may be worth considering

 

What about the Yamaha Motif series? I think the higher end stuff can sample audio, I don't know that much about fucking around with the samples though.

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Guest Chesney

There is only so many types of effects to be honest xox. Doubt there is going to be some new magical sound manipulation technique for some time or even ever. Just new takes on the ways we know.

If you don't mind a bit of menu diving then rack fx are the way to go to get deep/new/weird fx. try the ensoniq DP4. That is a 4 in 4 out fx rack with all sorts of usable stuff but you can route 4 different fx in any way i.e. 4 in line for really really deep mono effecting or 2 stereo or or whatever.

I use mine for stereo distortion and modulation mainly but the reverb is pretty good and it's all midi so you could do some real quirky sequenced fx with your MD/MnM. Be a nice setup to be honest. I'm getting myself amped to try this myself, I am yet to go deep with the midi.

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There is only so many types of effects to be honest xox. Doubt there is going to be some new magical sound manipulation technique for some time or even ever. Just new takes on the ways we know.

If you don't mind a bit of menu diving then rack fx are the way to go to get deep/new/weird fx. try the ensoniq DP4. That is a 4 in 4 out fx rack with all sorts of usable stuff but you can route 4 different fx in any way i.e. 4 in line for really really deep mono effecting or 2 stereo or or whatever.

I use mine for stereo distortion and modulation mainly but the reverb is pretty good and it's all midi so you could do some real quirky sequenced fx with your MD/MnM. Be a nice setup to be honest. I'm getting myself amped to try this myself, I am yet to go deep with the midi.

 

that ensoniq seems to be quite a beast! ...but it's a 19inch rack unit and i hate those :( still, i'm gonna think about it cause it's a 4 channel unit which is fan-tas-tic! it's hard to find a stereo unit, let alone 4 channel

thnx!

 

 

have you tried the geiger counter or vermona retroverb/filter lancet? i'd be find with a mono efx if it's interesting enough.

in this period of the last 30-40 days i've become a guitar pedal expert. there's so many great pedals out there but they're usually very limited and they're not exactly cheap. but if i have the money i'd buy 20 of them today; i exactly know which one. i have to start with something so i've bought that zoom stereo pedal, now i want something else. i'm covered with reverbs, delays, choruses, amp simulations, flangers and such...

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