Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

[Zooluus]

7 hours ago, mister miller said:

yeah that's where i'm at with this. 

i'm just a regular dude and even i knew for the past few weeks, something is going down on january 6th and they better have the national guard there just in case. i can't believe how easily these fucks got in there, it's insane.

all you have to do is skim through parler or that r/the_donald offshoot site and you'll see, there were people talking about insurrection, public executions, overthrowing the govt, etc. for MONTHS now.....ever since the election.

how was the response so poor? how were they allowed to EASILY get into the Senate chamber? into senator's offices? it's unbelievable.

it's almost like the FBI/whoever thought, "nah these people are just joking.....all 100,000 of them" or whatever.

i can guarantee you the response would have been different if it was a bunch of muslims storming the capitol, who had been discussing their EXACT plan for months on an website that literally anyone can get to and explore in 2 seconds....i mean wow

i'm picturing mike pence being rushed off the senate floor, hearing voices of maga folks in the halls looking for him/mcconell/pelosi....wondering "where the fuck is the security?" he probably shit his pants.

 

well, we all saw what happened at area 51

[Braintree]

Oh no the deep state got to him.

[TubularCorporation]

Also the president is the one with the power to deploy the National Guard, so that wasn't likely.

[auxien]

7 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

Hi noob here. But long time reader.

hi Mr FBI agent 

7 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

I'm a bit confused. As far as I can tell, those agencies are only allowed access to data of US citizens *if* there's a reasonable cause. If people expect the FBI and the likes to be *on top of this*, like some have, people are basically saying they should be allowed to access all that data without any particular cause.

i'm not talking about FBI/CIA/NSA/etc installing malware to access personal messages/emails/etc on private phones or computers. it's seeming pretty obvious that much of this information was relatively publicly available: FB groups, Parler, etc. fucking guys had MAGA CIVIL WAR 01/06 shirts on ffs. there's a big difference between gov officials making Parler accounts or faking their way into FB groups to snoop on what's being chatted about there vs. spying through illegal means. literally anyone who can use the internet can do the former: only those with access to the right high level skills, software, infrastructure, etc., can do the latter.

7 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

I've seen plenty people in the past around here arguing against these types of surveillance practices. And rightly so. But the consequence is that FBI/etc can only knock on Twitters/Facebooks door *after* the event, or at least with specific evidence on specific individuals. We've been through the nonsense with the FBI and all trying to figure out what the Ruskies were doing in Trumps building in 2015. We've seen the procedures.

Criticism about the lack of police people present at the capitol yesterday, I'm all for. But expecting the FBI to identify and prevent people who may go to some protest (ending up as attempted coup), that's just counter to all anti-surveillance arguments. That's just silly, imo. 

i don't think the FBI/CIA/NSA keeping tabs on potentially dangerous individuals and groups that could cause widespread harm is silly....i'm pretty sure that's literally their jobs.

i mean, that and watching out for aliens. i've seen the X-Files plenty, i know what's up. 

7 hours ago, Satans Little Helper said:

(way to go for a first post! making friends is what i do best! )

seem decent to me, i've got nothing wrong with disagreements. welcome

7 hours ago, Braintree said:

....

If the local departments were so inclined, they could have definitely tracked every "protestor" (domestic terrorist) and identifed them that way.

yep. i'm quite sure some of these groups were being monitored, but it's seeming there were some lapses in judgement somewhere along the way.

but the issues with lots of info and lots of actors (and frankly, lots of motherfuckers with guns and spouting the same terrorist-y shit on FB) has gotta make the jobs of these agencies, local and/or federal, very difficult.

6 hours ago, chenGOD said:

@auxienThe FBI was 100% monitoring parler etc. - those posts often don't have pictures of the individuals associate with them. So asking for help identifying suspects is actually pretty standard. Also, as far as I know, in the US, law enforcement is still required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was evidence of a planned terrorist act.

of course...having someone rat out info is a lot easier i imagine....but i'm pretty sure they can track down exactly who these people are, for the most part, if they key in on certain individuals that could be dangerous enough to be at the level where they'd be able to get a warrant to investigate further/etc. they obviously didn't tho... and now they're resorting to asking for public help (AFTER the damage has been done) when the public has already done all the information gathering, done all the photo taking, sorting, tagging, etc. as for evidence of a planned terrorist act, see MAGA CIVIL WAR shirts yeah?

i mean check out this one thread from this one guy just using as far as i can tell Twitter/FB photos and info. if one man can do this, in the span of like 16 hours in his free time, imagine what an actual team of trained agents with access to any and all the resources the US government's budget allows should be able to do.

basically what i'm getting at is either they can't do this sort of thing.... .. .. . . . . . .  .    .     o r r r r r r r r r they don't want to, in this case.

i wonder which one it is

edit: i'm definitely not saying the entirety of those depts are conspiring to allow lunacy like yesterday to happen. i assume the vast majority of those people are good people doing their jobs the best they can....what i am saying is that certain things could've been looked over/downplayed purposefully by a few key people in the right places of the hierarchy so as to not trigger larger bells. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by auxien

[auxien]

27 minutes ago, Nebraska said:

p.s. pence deployed the national guard

just saw pointed out on Twitter, that weird camera change at 1:30-1:48 or whatever is really strange and there's gotta be some good reason for that.

Edited January 8, 2021 by auxien

[custom knob]

Deepfakes are getting really good

[Nebraska]

operation abandon ship still in progress

 

[Braintree]

10 minutes ago, Nebraska said:

operation abandon ship still in progress

 

Trying to demonstrate she's not a fascist cunt, just a regular cunt.

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, auxien said:

the issues with lots of info and lots of actors (and frankly, lots of motherfuckers with guns and spouting the same terrorist-y shit on FB) has gotta make the jobs of these agencies, local and/or federal, very difficult.

7 hours ago, chenGOD said:

@auxienThe FBI was 100% monitoring parler etc. - those posts often don't have pictures of the individuals associate with them. So asking for help identifying suspects is actually pretty standard. Also, as far as I know, in the US, law enforcement is still required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was evidence of a planned terrorist act.

Expand  

of course...having someone rat out info is a lot easier i imagine....but i'm pretty sure they can track down exactly who these people are, for the most part, if they key in on certain individuals that could be dangerous enough to be at the level where they'd be able to get a warrant to investigate further/etc. they obviously didn't tho... and now they're resorting to asking for public help (AFTER the damage has been done) when the public has already done all the information gathering, done all the photo taking, sorting, tagging, etc. as for evidence of a planned terrorist act, see MAGA CIVIL WAR shirts yeah?

i mean check out this one thread from this one guy just using as far as i can tell Twitter/FB photos and info. if one man can do this, in the span of like 16 hours in his free time, imagine what an actual team of trained agents with access to any and all the resources the US government's budget allows should be able to do.

You don’t see any dissonance between the two parts I put in bold? 
I don’t understand what you want the FBI or HSI to do. Wearing a bunch of terrible shirts is not evidence of terrorism or a terrorist plot. 
To arrest those guys beforehand, the prosecutor has to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Imagine this scenario:

Judge: “So what are you bringing to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?”

Prosecutor: “Well your honour, they were all wearing T-shirts that said ‘MAGA: Civil War’.” 

Judge: “Out!”

So far you have one guy who was maybe identified after hours of crowdsourcing. Also, it’s not like the FBI is going to make a public statement every time they ID someone, charges have to be laid etc. etc. So who knows which people they’ve identified. 

Maybe the guys who were carrying around zip tie handcuffs weren’t using parler or other open source media to communicate their plans: according to the Twitter thread, one of the guys had an extensive military background, so he knew something about operational security, probably knew enough to use encrypted comms (which believe it or not, can be very difficult or even impossible for law enforcement to crack), and probably they used the potential “fog of war” (i.e. the useful idiots provided good cover) to carry out whatever plan they had.  

Like these guys deserve to have the full weight of the law come down on them, but some of what you’re describing sounds very fucking disturbing in terms of violating civil and human rights. 

[EdamAnchorman]

[whosebrian]

On 11/5/2020 at 4:59 PM, Braintree said:

tldr; they're in a cult.

[auxien]

17 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

You don’t see any dissonance between the two parts I put in bold? 

having a very difficult job doesn't mean one shouldn't be doing it as best as they possibly can. pilots and rocket scientists and neurosurgeons have very difficult jobs, and yet, we hope and expect those people to work to the best of their abilities. i'll board a plane and feel secure that the pilots up there know what the fuck they're doing. same for the people who are hired and paid by my tax dollars to protect the general populace of my country and its institutions. because it is a very difficult job also means there will be mistakes, of course. maybe the raid of the capitol was just a fucking comedy of errors, mistakes at every level dozens of times in a row. that's possible....but is it the most likely situation, especially in light of what we're hearing and seeing with admission/video of cooperation at the ground level? one might think there was some of that going on elsewhere as well....

 

22 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

I don’t understand what you want the FBI or HSI to do. Wearing a bunch of terrible shirts is not evidence of terrorism or a terrorist plot. 
To arrest those guys beforehand, the prosecutor has to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Imagine this scenario:

Judge: “So what are you bringing to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?”

Prosecutor: “Well your honour, they were all wearing T-shirts that said ‘MAGA: Civil War’.” 

Judge: “Out!”

'wearing a bunch of terrible shirts' if it was because they were all joking online about it, sure! not so bad, not a terrorist plot. if however those same persons swiping their credit cards were also online posting 'hey, yeah just ordered the CIVIL WAR shirts and we're driving to DC next week to try and start some shit, just ordered some riot gear will be here tomorrow, you bringing your guns?' then....maybe that should've set off some red flags, that's what i'm saying. it seems as of now something like that is exactly what was going on, unnoticed.

those sorts of people generally don't get arrested beforehand, your scenario is ludicrous at its base. i never said 'arrest them all before they've done a thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' that shit gets found out and broken up, in my understanding generally in conjunction with the social media platforms where they're happening. most of these people get spoken to and spooked perhaps, occasionally it may lead to arrests based on tangential issues (weapons without permits, unpaid child support, or whatever) ...but i don't research this shit tho.

26 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

So far you have one guy who was maybe identified after hours of crowdsourcing. Also, it’s not like the FBI is going to make a public statement every time they ID someone, charges have to be laid etc. etc. So who knows which people they’ve identified. 

Maybe the guys who were carrying around zip tie handcuffs weren’t using parler or other open source media to communicate their plans: according to the Twitter thread, one of the guys had an extensive military background, so he knew something about operational security, probably knew enough to use encrypted comms (which believe it or not, can be very difficult or even impossible for law enforcement to crack), and probably they used the potential “fog of war” (i.e. the useful idiots provided good cover) to carry out whatever plan they had. 

there have been dozens of people identified. some of them within a few short hours of the events happening, probably while the perpetrators were still mulling about at the edges of the Capitol grounds.

maybe they weren't, maybe they were. these things are apparently pretty nebulous tho, and even if some of the actors are being very careful, the friends of their friends aren't (see fucking doofus wearing his work nametag to the Capitol) and the crowds are, in many of these Trump-centric cases, ideal and 100% part of the game, so even the careful 'pros' want some word to get out and around, exactly like you're describing with the useful idiots around. 

32 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Like these guys deserve to have the full weight of the law come down on them, but some of what you’re describing sounds very fucking disturbing in terms of violating civil and human rights. 

quote one thing i've said that is 'very fucking disturbing in terms of violating civil and human rights' please. you're reading into what i'm writing if so and need to quit pushing your own preconceptions onto my words. i'm saying most of this work can and is being done by civilians, just random fucking yahoos on Twitter dot com, with publicly posted information...so if the professionals are doing at least that much to find these hotspots/hubs/posters of particular interest that seem seriously intent on yknow civil destruction, murder, and war lol, i think as long as they're doing so within the bounds of reason logic and the law then they can probably get a court ordered warrant for special circumstances...that's probably a general good?

i'm 100% with that for sure at one point in time that stuff was definitely being abused (post 9/11) and am 100% aware that those post 9/11 laws allow for some obvious human rights violations still, i'm quite sure. it may still be happening under those same laws for all i know, i wouldn't be surprised. but even if all that were taken away immediately, there's still legal ways for these people to do their jobs as best they can. they'll never get it perfect because you can never predict the future, human nature, well hidden groups, etc....what the issue is here for me is that as far as we can tell right now, none of this that happened at DC was unpredictable or well-hidden. it looked to be fairly or entirely out in the fucking open, not necessarily well coordinated but still to some amount pre-meditated. 

[ambermonk]

Can't wait til the thread title reads "Now That Trump's No Longer President..."

Ready for this entire orange shitstorm to be over. But it could likely go out with a bang.

Either way, after the dust settles, we need to start discharging all military and law enforcement members with white supremacist affiliations, start being nicer to the environment, increase minimum wage, have actual affordable health care, etc.

[auxien]

7 minutes ago, ambermonke said:

Either way, after the dust settles, we need to start discharging all military and law enforcement members with white supremacist affiliations, start being nicer to the environment, increase minimum wage, have actual affordable health care, etc.

i'll be surprised if there's any real legit movement on even one of those things. happily surprised, but surprised nonetheless.

[chenGOD]

 

4 minutes ago, auxien said:

quote one thing i've said that is 'very fucking disturbing in terms of violating civil and human rights' please.

I can't quote one exact thing, but is the general idea behind your post not something along the lines of "The FBI/CIA/HSI should have done something!!!" By that I infer you would like them to have arrested, detained, summarily executed (kidding) a bunch of people on what basis? Congregating in a public space, freedom of expression, the right to freedom of movement, the right to not be arrested arbitrarily, all human rights.

To arrest these people, you need a substantial amount of time and resources to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were planning and capable of carrying out an attack. Again, not all of these people would be posting on parler, or other open source media, what their intentions were.  One of the scary things about terrorism is how little organization and planning is necessary to carry out a terrorist attack. So these terrorists are all able to say openly, hey let's go to DC, we'll have a rally, we'll wear some shitty t-shirts. No judge in the world is going to grant a warrant to investigate further on that basis. Then once they meet in person, or on the car ride up, they make their barely thought out plans.

So again I ask you, what would you have the FBI do? Arbitrarily arrest people cause of posting about meeting up in washington DC to exclaim to the world that you're happy to "simp for trump"? None of that is illegal - as I've noted, those are all basic human rights.

As to the identification of people - sure dozens of people have been identified - to what standard of proof? Remember when reddit ID'ed the boston marathon bombers? And there were thousands of people involved, so dozens is just scratching the surface - you nor I have no idea what is going behind FBI doors (except for a lot of people logging a lot of overtime).

[ignatius]

Edited January 8, 2021 by ignatius

[Braintree]

Paywall.

Quote

 

The Pentagon placed tight limits on the D.C. National Guard ahead of pro-Trump protests this week, trying to ensure the use of military force remained constrained, as the Guard carried out a narrow, unarmed mission requested by the city’s mayor to help handle traffic ahead of planned protests.

 

In memos issued Monday and Tuesday in response to a request from the D.C. mayor, the Pentagon prohibited the District’s guardsmen from receiving ammunition or riot gear, interacting with protesters unless necessary for self-defense, sharing equipment with local law enforcement, or using Guard surveillance and air assets without the defense secretary’s explicit sign-off, according to officials familiar with the orders. The limits were established because the Guard hadn’t been asked to assist with crowd or riot control.

 

[exitonly]

Trump still has 12 days to become presidential tho. We might turn a corner here who knows.

[Squee]

I am deeply surprised that no one has assassinated Trump yet. I'm not wishing death upon anyone, but my one guess when he was inaugurated was that he wouldn't survive all four years.

[usagi]

On 1/7/2021 at 4:43 PM, Rubin Farr said:

I’d say she was a human being, and deserves some dignity in death, even if she was misled, ill, uneducated, whatever, it’s not our place to assume. 3 others died at the riot today from “medical emergencies” RIP. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

enough of this pissweak white apologism, at long last. apparently you haven't paid attention the last 5 years and understood the scale of what has occurred in that time. go take a cursory look at the maga cesspools on the internet right now and observe how utterly beyond hope these cunts are even after this final disgrace. I used to think it was non-American agitators who made up the vocal majority on those forums but it's plain as day now after how narrow the vote was and now this that that's not true and the poison has spread vastly and deeply. offering this lot sympathy in good faith emboldens them to continue trampling on sane norms in bad faith, and is the biggest reason why the US' slide into insanity and self-destruction has continued unchecked. tolerance is not deserved here, shame is.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, usagi said:

offering this lot sympathy in good faith emboldens them to continue trampling on sane norms in bad faith, and is the biggest reason why the US' slide into insanity and self-destruction has continued unchecked.

I agree with @Rubin Farr she was a human now dead. I also appreciate your position too but I disagree with your idea about sane norms. You are so right about things that have changed in the last five years. I am worried that any return to normalcy whatever that means is wishful thinking.

[zlemflolia]

3 hours ago, nikisoko said:

Trump still has 12 days to become presidential tho. We might turn a corner here who knows.

I don't know if that's quite enough time to start any wars or organize any genocides

5 hours ago, chenGOD said:

 

I can't quote one exact thing, but is the general idea behind your post not something along the lines of "The FBI/CIA/HSI should have done something!!!" By that I infer you would like them to have arrested, detained, summarily executed (kidding) a bunch of people on what basis? Congregating in a public space, freedom of expression, the right to freedom of movement, the right to not be arrested arbitrarily, all human rights.

To arrest these people, you need a substantial amount of time and resources to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were planning and capable of carrying out an attack. Again, not all of these people would be posting on parler, or other open source media, what their intentions were.  One of the scary things about terrorism is how little organization and planning is necessary to carry out a terrorist attack. So these terrorists are all able to say openly, hey let's go to DC, we'll have a rally, we'll wear some shitty t-shirts. No judge in the world is going to grant a warrant to investigate further on that basis. Then once they meet in person, or on the car ride up, they make their barely thought out plans.

So again I ask you, what would you have the FBI do? Arbitrarily arrest people cause of posting about meeting up in washington DC to exclaim to the world that you're happy to "simp for trump"? None of that is illegal - as I've noted, those are all basic human rights.

As to the identification of people - sure dozens of people have been identified - to what standard of proof? Remember when reddit ID'ed the boston marathon bombers? And there were thousands of people involved, so dozens is just scratching the surface - you nor I have no idea what is going behind FBI doors (except for a lot of people logging a lot of overtime).

All of this stuff makes sense theoretically if the US actually cared about these bullshit rules but how about we at least expect them to treat right wing protestors the same way they do left wing protestors?
 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polices-tepid-response-to-the-capitol-breach-wasnt-an-aberration/

[zlemflolia]

everyone fucking knew this was going to happen weeks in advance, I knew about this and I wasn't even paying attention I just saw one of my right wing friends mention it.  no excuses, the real explanation is that they simply do not fucking care about right wingers whereas they beat left wing protestors to shreds.  we saw it during the BLM protests and we're seeing it again now.  really getting sick of pathetic liberals

[auxien]

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

I can't quote one exact thing, but is the general idea behind your post not something along the lines of "The FBI/CIA/HSI should have done something!!!" By that I infer you would like them to have arrested, detained, summarily executed (kidding) a bunch of people on what basis?

you're obviously not reading what i'm writing (as this is the the exact opposite of what i just stated) or choosing to ignore it, so i'm going to actually not read the rest of what you're saying. piss off kindly now

[auxien]

2 hours ago, bupkis said:

I agree with @Rubin Farr she was a human now dead. I also appreciate your position too but I disagree with your idea about sane norms. You are so right about things that have changed in the last five years. I am worried that any return to normalcy whatever that means is wishful thinking.

rushing into the Capitol like that is essentially a deathwish.

if someone goes free climbing up the side of a cliff and then their hand slips and they fall and die....yeah, sucks they died, but they were doing a thing which they knew could very well end up with their own death. so yeah it's sad but also they knew exactly what they were getting in to, fuck 'em.