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Now That Trump's President... (24 hours to go)


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2 minutes ago, Alcofribas said:

i would argue it's anti-democratic for corporations to have any financial influence on politics. 

yeah, their "will" is already covered by the fact that the people in the corporation can already vote. No need for anything on top of that.

Edited by Brisbot
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enough of this pissweak white apologism, at long last. apparently you haven't paid attention the last 5 years and understood the scale of what has occurred in that time. go take a cursory look at the 

A bunch of entitled/threatened/fearful white people have allowed themselves to be brainwashed to support the egotism of a common opportunist / cheap tie salesman. Now they are resorting to violen

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1 minute ago, Alcofribas said:

i would argue it's anti-democratic for corporations to have any financial influence on politics. 

we agree campaign finance needs to be reformed, and is a root problem. dark money is a big problem. i think citizens united is up for review in the near future, that established corps as people.

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random thought - I can't believe this thread made it 5 years without getting locked or having massive amounts of posts deleted. if this discussion had occurred anywhere else online, it would have lasted maybe 2 minutes without a trumpo torpedoing in.

how can we replicate this bastion of civility that exists within these hallowed halls? how can we make the world more like us is what everyone should be asking themselves here. 

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Just now, zero said:

random thought - I can't believe this thread made it 5 years without getting locked or having massive amounts of posts deleted. if this discussion had occurred anywhere else online, it would have lasted maybe 2 minutes without a trumpo torpedoing in.

how can we replicate this bastion of civility that exists within these hallowed halls? how can we make the world more like us is what everyone should be asking themselves here. 

Get everyone into very niche and esoteric music, of which 95% of the time left wing types are into.

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Just now, zero said:

random thought - I can't believe this thread made it 5 years without getting locked or having massive amounts of posts deleted. if this discussion had occurred anywhere else online, it would have lasted maybe 2 minutes without a trumpo torpedoing in.

how can we replicate this bastion of civility that exists within these hallowed halls? how can we make the world more like us is what everyone should be asking themselves here. 

i'm selling a lot of posts from here to the russians tho

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2 minutes ago, Brisbot said:

 

Get everyone into very niche and esoteric music, of which 95% of the time left wing types are into.

I'm starting to worry a little about Richard though, he might start attracting that 5% of undesirables to this world. 

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1 minute ago, zero said:

I'm starting to worry a little about Richard though, he might start attracting that 5% of undesirables to this world. 

don't worry too much, plenty of us around here are very happy to let any stray new idiots know that they're idiots.

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1 hour ago, dingformung said:

Neither do I and it's not what I mean.  To socialise just means that it's publicly funded and treated like other nationalised infrastructure.  Doesn't mean it's under direct command of the US president, lol.  From the Wiki-Article about public broadcasting: "Public-sector media (state-funded) is not to be confused with state media (state-controlled), which is 'controlled financially and editorially by the state.'"

i take your point, but it's not that simple. departments and agencies in the US are basically all executive branch, tools of the president. mechanisms of check and balance are there but we've seen inspector generals fired when investigating trump and impeachment convictions foiled by party allegience. we've seen trump purge leadership at voice of america, socialized media. we've seen trump installing inept lackeys everywhere, leaving posts unmanned, and threatening leadership to cater to his objectives. the executive branch really got trashed in the last 4 years.

1 hour ago, dingformung said:

Generally the US president has too much power, he's got almost dictator like untouchability. But fix your two party system first before you fix your presidential system, lol (won't happen 😕).

it's been a stress test, over here, and i'm hoping some legislation happens to strengthen checks and maybe institute some new ones. i agree that the office of the presidency could use major reshaping. it could easily be split into two positions, and additionally have powers stripped away. regarding the two party system, i see the shortest path away from two party to be splintering one or both of the two parties, and we see that starting to happen. i'm not sure what reinforcement mechanisms can be dismantled, or what catalysts can be introduced, to faciliate this, but this is maybe a good question to consider.

i think the most destabilizing element is the information situation. i'm hoping we're now through the worst of it. i sensed in 2016 that it would worsen, but now i hope we are seeing some of the extents.

1 hour ago, dingformung said:
1 hour ago, very honest said:

maybe it's good that the two paradigms of digital and government contend with each-other, as a form of check and balance?

Hmmm, no - businesses can't act as a balance to the government because they aren't elected or got into power through democratic processes. 

i am speaking in terms of systems design. voters are a power vector, though they are not elected. meritocracy in career positions is a check. media is a check. the corporate sphere having some type of influence i am not necessarily opposed to. 

1 hour ago, dingformung said:

corporations are like little Soviet Unions, or can be if they want to - there is nothing democratic about them and they shouldn't be a "counterbalance" to the government. More often than not it's not the most moral companies that come out on top. The government, without being authoritarian, should have full authority to work properly for its citizens.

i'm not sure where i am on whether corps should be allowed to donate. i think donations should definitely be transparent and capped, in any case. something about leaders of industry having an additional voice seems rational to me, but maybe i'm wrong. i'll reiterate that i would be for very low donation caps.

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19 minutes ago, Squee said:

What does this mean for the people he pardons? Does it mean they can't be prosecuted for whatever?

they can't be prosecuted for their existing crimes i think. or things they've been indicted for. but they don't get some kind of get out of jail free card for future crimes. 

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1 hour ago, very honest said:

i take your point, but it's not that simple. departments and agencies in the US are basically all executive branch, tools of the president. mechanisms of check and balance are there but we've seen inspector generals fired when investigating trump and impeachment convictions foiled by party allegience. we've seen trump purge leadership at voice of america, socialized media. we seen trump installing inept lackeys everywhere, leaving posts unmanned, and threatening leadership to cater to his objectives. the executive branch really got trashed in the last 4 years.

Are random CEOs really better than Trump? Some of them might be smarter and more ruthless psychopaths. Trump himself is a CEO. Do you think that media corporations whose purpose is first and foremost to generate returns for their investors by way of making maximum possible profit (disregarding any possible consequences) are really better than an elected government (despite gerrymandering and other ways of election interference)? Do you trust them more? Even if you can answer this question with "yes", others might want to have a say in that, too - democracy, ya know. Corporation rule is authoritarianism.

 

1 hour ago, very honest said:

i am speaking in terms of systems design. voters are a power vector, though they are not elected. meritocracy in career positions is a check. media is a check. the corporate sphere having some type of influence i am not necessarily opposed to. 

"Some type of influence" is funny, considering that the nation is basically in control of the military-industrial complex - whose influence reaches far into all other nations of the world, as well, economically, politically, intelligence wise, militarily, etc.

Lol @ thinking that the fact that voters aren't elected says anything. A Bertold Brecht quote comes to mind: "The people has forfeited the government's trust. Wouldn't it be easier if the government just elected a new people?"
 

1 hour ago, very honest said:

i'm not sure where i am on whether corps should be allowed to donate. i think donations should definitely be transparent and capped, in any case. something about leaders of industry have an additional voice seems rational to me, but maybe i'm wrong. i'll reiterate that i would be for very low donation caps.

That donations should be transparent should go without saying, unfortunately that's not the case not only in the US but in (I think) all major Western countries. In Germany, parties - on top of the donations - get state money based on the amount of votes they get. I think that's a good system and should replace donations by private corporations, who want something in return, entirely. Remove corporation donations all together - they give parties an advantage without any democratic legitimisation to do so. It's basically legalised corruption/bribery. Again, I don't know how dear you hold the idea of democracy.

 

1 hour ago, very honest said:

it's been a stress test, over here, and i'm hoping some legislation happens to strengthen checks and maybe institute some new ones. i agree that the office of the presidency could use major reshaping. it could easily be split into two positions, and additionally have powers stripped away. regarding the two party system, i see the shortest path away from two party to be splintering one or both of the two parties, and we see that starting to happen. i'm not sure what reinforcement mechanisms can be dismantled, or what catalysts can be introduced, to faciliate this, but this is maybe a good question to consider.

I think it won't happen. The system is too rigid to be fundamentally changed without major disruptions. Here's a random map for some reason:

1509018290_Bildschirmfoto2021-01-19um20_21_26.thumb.png.9e5664efcec7017916ebc345a876555c.png

Edited by dingformung
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1 hour ago, ignatius said:

they can't be prosecuted for their existing crimes i think. or things they've been indicted for. but they don't get some kind of get out of jail free card for future crimes. 

Ok, that explains this...

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/joe-exotic-trump-pardon-tiger-king-b1789254.html

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2 hours ago, very honest said:

 

  • the corporate sphere is an independent power vector that has the capacity to provide a check on government

This is straight up fucking stupid. The role of a corporation is to make as much money as possible while spending the least amount of money to get it which has historically caused much exploitation and inequality. Remember how laborers used to not have a weekend? If anything, the government is a check on corporations.

2 hours ago, zero said:

random thought - I can't believe this thread made it 5 years without getting locked or having massive amounts of posts deleted. if this discussion had occurred anywhere else online, it would have lasted maybe 2 minutes without a trumpo torpedoing in.

how can we replicate this bastion of civility that exists within these hallowed halls? how can we make the world more like us is what everyone should be asking themselves here. 

There have been a few randos and watmmers that have come and gone. Like usual, they'll come in hot and say a bunch of dumb shit but they get smacked down because that's not the culture around here.

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