Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

[LimpyLoo]

 

a mob sodomized him with a bayonet lol

 

the look on his face when they cut his head off! totally classic.

"How can you do me like that when I've done so much for you? Look into your heart...I'm begging you..."

[LimpyLoo]

 

 

nah, let's shitpost instead about how he was a terrible human being which somehow justifies a cavalier attitude to American intervention. self-interested intervention which ends at simply removing him without doing anything to support and build up the country in his absence.

 

part of me thinks it's sort of their plan to make a mess of the middle east as a way of keeping it suppressed but other part of me knows they don't really have a plan that's more than 2 parts when it should be 50 part plan.

 

unintended consequences etc. "we'll take out the oppressor and then they'll become a peace loving democracy" derp.

 

best thing we could've done was do nothing 70 years ago and let the place find its own destiny. same w/iran/saudi/etc etc ad nauseam

We refreshed the Tree of Liberty tho

we've been doing that for so long even when we don't have to.. we do it just in case.

I'm probably more cynical, realpolitik tolerant watmmers but I have to admit even today the lynch mob-esque killing of Gaddafi was fucked up. His rein of Libya, relationship with the west, and legacy as a dictator is long and complicated. (copied from a reply within a post i made on reddit)

 

TBH I feel uneasy about that being his fate. He was ousted out of power long after his worst abuses and ironically not as he became more distant and dangerous to the world, but right after his most cooperative era with the West. Yes the guy was about as bad as most cold war era eccentric and dangerous dictators get and I'm by no means a Qaddafi apologist, but the way the US and EU help kill him was a bit cheap. Despite all the shit he pulled in the 80s as a terror sponsor and warmonger in Africa he was a key collaborator with the US after 9/11: our relations warmed tremendously and he actively and voluntarily disarmed his WMD program. The same man the Reagan administration tried to kill in an airstrike was literally handshaking Bush in 2003. He became very close to the EU as an oil supplier and economic partner...and the West literally pulled a 180 on him when the Arab Spring occurred. The same man who was being courted and escorted to VIP functions in Italy by their PM was being attacked from NATO jets flying out of Italy just years later.

I would of preferred to see him tried at Hague. Hell, even a sham trial and hanging would of been more apt. Instead NATO jets literally pinned him down to a highway culvert so a NTC lead mob could sodomize and humiliate him as he was killed. That's no way to transition from despot rule to a fledgling democracy, even in the context of an armed revolution, and feel any sense of pride and justice. In a greater context, if were to really intervene in the Arab Spring in 2011 for moral reasons, it would of been in Syria, not Libya, but the latter was a more apt opportunity for the West. I know realpolitik is what rules as policy in the middle east for strategic and pragmatic reasons, and the brutal way that Gaddafi was killed was essentially the means to an end of a historically brutal dictatorship in an oil rich North African country, but it's still a hard pill to swallow.

 

^

TLDR: Intervention in Libya involved the West literally ousting one of the most "reformed" dictators in existence, even if he was a eccentric and bombastic statesman. It was arguably a betrayal, quasi-assassination, and intervention of convenience.

 

And just to reiterate: he was worth 200 billion dollars

If he wasn't such a selfish fuck he could've done more good than Bill Gates 3 or 4 times over (with billions to spare)

Fuck him...he was scum and the world won't miss him

[WeAreOceans]

 

 

 

 

 

nah, let's shitpost instead about how he was a terrible human being which somehow justifies a cavalier attitude to American intervention. self-interested intervention which ends at simply removing him without doing anything to support and build up the country in his absence.

it wasn't american intervention. it was the UN.

 

splitting hairs is fun. actually it was NATO, the UN has no power to "intervene" on the ground. guess which is the most powerful and influential state in the NATO coalition.

 

Wait, then what does UNATCO do?

 

Things that were never asked for.

 

 

Deus Ex reference, nice. Blast from the past.

 

 

it's all in the numbers

 

number one: that's terror

 

number two:

 

 

that's terror

 

[Psychotronic]

[DerWaschbar]

 

 

 

nah, let's shitpost instead about how he was a terrible human being which somehow justifies a cavalier attitude to American intervention. self-interested intervention which ends at simply removing him without doing anything to support and build up the country in his absence.

 

part of me thinks it's sort of their plan to make a mess of the middle east as a way of keeping it suppressed but other part of me knows they don't really have a plan that's more than 2 parts when it should be 50 part plan.

 

unintended consequences etc. "we'll take out the oppressor and then they'll become a peace loving democracy" derp.

 

best thing we could've done was do nothing 70 years ago and let the place find its own destiny. same w/iran/saudi/etc etc ad nauseam

We refreshed the Tree of Liberty tho

we've been doing that for so long even when we don't have to.. we do it just in case.

I'm probably more cynical, realpolitik tolerant watmmers but I have to admit even today the lynch mob-esque killing of Gaddafi was fucked up. His rein of Libya, relationship with the west, and legacy as a dictator is long and complicated. (copied from a reply within a post i made on reddit)

 

TBH I feel uneasy about that being his fate. He was ousted out of power long after his worst abuses and ironically not as he became more distant and dangerous to the world, but right after his most cooperative era with the West. Yes the guy was about as bad as most cold war era eccentric and dangerous dictators get and I'm by no means a Qaddafi apologist, but the way the US and EU help kill him was a bit cheap. Despite all the shit he pulled in the 80s as a terror sponsor and warmonger in Africa he was a key collaborator with the US after 9/11: our relations warmed tremendously and he actively and voluntarily disarmed his WMD program. The same man the Reagan administration tried to kill in an airstrike was literally handshaking Bush in 2003. He became very close to the EU as an oil supplier and economic partner...and the West literally pulled a 180 on him when the Arab Spring occurred. The same man who was being courted and escorted to VIP functions in Italy by their PM was being attacked from NATO jets flying out of Italy just years later.

I would of preferred to see him tried at Hague. Hell, even a sham trial and hanging would of been more apt. Instead NATO jets literally pinned him down to a highway culvert so a NTC lead mob could sodomize and humiliate him as he was killed. That's no way to transition from despot rule to a fledgling democracy, even in the context of an armed revolution, and feel any sense of pride and justice. In a greater context, if were to really intervene in the Arab Spring in 2011 for moral reasons, it would of been in Syria, not Libya, but the latter was a more apt opportunity for the West. I know realpolitik is what rules as policy in the middle east for strategic and pragmatic reasons, and the brutal way that Gaddafi was killed was essentially the means to an end of a historically brutal dictatorship in an oil rich North African country, but it's still a hard pill to swallow.

 

^

TLDR: Intervention in Libya involved the West literally ousting one of the most "reformed" dictators in existence, even if he was a eccentric and bombastic statesman. It was arguably a betrayal, quasi-assassination, and intervention of convenience.

 

And just to reiterate: he was worth 200 billion dollars

If he wasn't such a selfish fuck he could've done more good than Bill Gates 3 or 4 times over (with billions to spare)

Fuck him...he was scum and the world won't miss him

 

 

not exactly? forbes suggests the la times assumed national assets as his personal ones

[LimpyLoo]

Oh okay, so he was only worth like 50-70 billion...my bad

*at least

[DerWaschbar]

yes your bad

[LimpyLoo]

Besides being rich, his record was impeccable. Total sweetheart. Truly cared about other human beings.

[DerWaschbar]

also where did you get that figure from?

[triachus]

i think he works out

[LimpyLoo]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/history-will-remember-which-republicans-failed-the-trump-test/2016/11/03/6c1e6d36-9d4c-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html?utm_term=.49ec10152f79

[DerWaschbar]

under his rule libya created free health care, education was made a basic right. pretty much every libyan owned their own home, would be given free land to farm if they wanted to. women became educated, free to study whatever they wanted and joined the work force.

[LimpyLoo]

also where did you get that figure from?

That is roughly what was seized from his personal accounts and accounts that were likely his

I agree that figures are speculative

There's no perfect way to assess what assets were explicitly under his control, including land and ostensible "commons"

 

But considering how despots historically treat their country's resources...

 

Look, there is a moral aphorism that goes roughly: "if you kill one, why not ten? If you kill ten, why not a hundred? Why not a thousand, or even a million?"

 

I don't really care about the specific figures, they are whatever they are. The point is that despots would own *everything* if they could. The details are mostly just what they happened to be able to get away with.

[YO303]

Gadaffe returns from the dead to haunt watmm

[DerWaschbar]

neway i dont mean to suggest that gaddafi was a saint or even a good guy really. but libya under him seems way more progressive than it is now... so what was the point of supporting his overthrow and brutal execution?

[LimpyLoo]

under his rule libya created free health care, education was made a basic right. pretty much every libyan owned their own home, would be given free land to farm if they wanted to. women became educated, free to study whatever they wanted and joined the work force.

Hey, you might get "disappeared" during the night, but at least you can read!

 

And hey, he brought good ol' Sharia to Libya...what a kindness

 

So yeah, Libyans had it good...the ones who survived, at least

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Libya#Historical_situation

[azatoth]

I think every US president from the last 40-50 years could be considered war criminals.

[LimpyLoo]

neway i dont mean to suggest that gaddafi was a saint or even a good guy really. but libya under him seems way more progressive than it is now... so what was the point of supporting his overthrow and brutal execution?

Libya got freer (politically and human rights-wise) immediately after Guddafi's death, check my wiki post above

[LimpyLoo]

I think every US president from the last 40-50 years could be considered war criminals.

Absolutely

We're starting to get the ticket here...moral assessment isn't fucking relative...

Edited November 4, 2016 by LimpyLoo

[chenGOD]

#

 

 

neway i dont mean to suggest that gaddafi was a saint or even a good guy really. but libya under him seems way more progressive than it is now... so what was the point of supporting his overthrow and brutal execution?

Libya got freer (politically and human rights-wise) immediately after Guddafi's death, check my wiki post above

 

 

Lawlessness and extralegal imprisonments under the interim government (directly after Gaddafi's death)

 

Three years after Gaddafi, Libya imploding into chaos and violence

 

Libya: From Africa's Richest State, to Failed State 3 years after NATO Intervention

 

Four years after Gaddafi, Libya is a failed state

 

Five years after Gaddafi, Libya torn by civil war and battles with Isis

 

I'm kind of seeing a pattern here.....

[doublename]

Freedom to die in a civil war obv.

Edited November 4, 2016 by doublename

[LimpyLoo]

Again, see my wiki link above

Yeah there was a power vacuum and the place Iraq'd

But policy-wise it wasn't a Sharia disappeared-during-the-night shithole

It was a shithole for an unrelated reason

[chenGOD]

So it went from being a stable place with some human rights violations to an unstable place with more human rights violations and somehow you think this is a good thing?

[Lane Visitor]

Haha i love seeing limpy and chen in a debate. You guys always take it to the max with logic and slick rebuttals. Anticipating a checkmate here, cuz you are both super knowledgable and great at sparring. And btw, Chen, as little as you and I have in common politically, your skill at arguing points to their last fibers always impresses me. Same with your logically sound cases Limpy.

[Zephyr_Nova]

Awwwwwwww