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Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)


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8 hours ago, rhmilo said:

In her defense, she then goes on to say the US is an outlier and that other countries have already opened their schools, which is true, because science seems to suggest, which it does, that it doesn't affect young children.

I'm all for "huh-huh Trump dumb" but in this particular instance they're doing the same as Denmark and the Netherlands (and probably others).

Thats a very narrow explanation of what is going on over here in the Netherlands, and in the US.

The thing which is ridiculous in the US is that even though there are huge differences in corona-spread between regions in the US, the president basically refuses to acknowledge that and forces all states to open schools. And threats with holding back finances if they don't. Regardless of the local situation. And remember that in the Netherlands schools were closed during the period the crisis was the most severe.

This is not an argument about what the impact is of a certain kind of policy. It's impact depend on a lot of factors. Which is basically why it would make sense to allow individual states to define their own policies. 

If Trump had any kind of sense, he'd allow states to open schools. Not force all states to open them. Keep that shit at the state level. And don't threaten states financially if they make their own decisions. 

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enough of this pissweak white apologism, at long last. apparently you haven't paid attention the last 5 years and understood the scale of what has occurred in that time. go take a cursory look at the 

A bunch of entitled/threatened/fearful white people have allowed themselves to be brainwashed to support the egotism of a common opportunist / cheap tie salesman. Now they are resorting to violen

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2 minutes ago, goDel said:

Thats a very narrow explanation of what is going on over here in the Netherlands, and in the US.

The thing which is ridiculous in the US is that even though there are huge differences in corona-spread between regions in the US, the president basically refuses to acknowledge that and forces all states to open schools. And threats with holding back finances if they don't. Regardless of the local situation. And remember that in the Netherlands schools were closed during the period the crisis was the most severe.

This is not an argument about what the impact is of a certain kind of policy. It's impact depend on a lot of factors. Which is basically why it would make sense to allow individual states to define their own policies. 

If Trump had any kind of sense, he'd allow states to open schools. Not force all states to open them. Keep that shit at the state level. And don't threaten states financially if they make their own decisions. 

if he was smart.... or if he'd even listen to someone smart.. they'd follow CDC guidelines for phased opening, protocols etc.. and there would be messaging constantly for mandatory masks. 

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Although I'm personally not a fan of the masks. And in the Netherlands we're doing fine without them (they're only mandatory in public transport), the thing I absolutely agree with, is to do what the experts say. Have clear rules based on evidence and apply them. That's the only way to get the population to do what is necessary. With some variation in the outcomes (Sweden? There's a debate there...), it's pretty evident it's clear to put experts center stage during a crisis like this.

I mean, if our experts in the Netherlands would say "wear a mask! they are mandatory!" ....well, I'll basically shut up and do as I'm being told. Even if I personally don't agree, or if what they propose is not perfect. It will never be perfect. We can only solve this by collectively following the experts.

In Trump land, well, experts have become irrelevant and to collectively do as Trump says...euh..yeah.. you might as well jump off a cliff. He doesn't give a F about people. He's only interested in getting re-elected (to keep himself out of potential indictments). So now you have half of the people listening to experts and the rest listening to Trump. A class half filled with idiots is guaranteed to be in a constant state of chaos. 10%/20% would be manageable. More than that? You know the deal.

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25 minutes ago, goDel said:

Thats a very narrow explanation of what is going on over here in the Netherlands, and in the US.

 

Not really. Schools were closed in a panic, and later it was admitted they shouldn’t have been. Such a vanishingly small number of children gets COVID-19 the risk more than outweighs he problems caused by children not going to school. These problems are the same all over the world: kids get depressed and kids that live in unstable homes are far, far better off at school than at home. These arguments were made in NL, Denmark, the UK and probably elsewhere and they’re the exact same arguments this Trump spokesperson makes.

This is just an illustration of how toxic politics in the US has become: no matter how sensible a position is, it will be vilified and dragged through the mud because the other side has adopted it.

QED.

 

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1 minute ago, rhmilo said:

Not really. Schools were closed in a panic, and later it was admitted they shouldn’t have been. Such a vanishingly small number of children gets COVID-19 the risk more than outweighs he problems caused by children not going to school. These problems are the same all over the world: kids get depressed and kids that live in unstable homes are far, far better off at school than at home. These arguments were made in NL, Denmark, the UK and probably elsewhere and they’re the exact same arguments this Trump spokesperson makes.

This is just an illustration of how toxic politics in the US has become: no matter how sensible a position is, it will be vilified and dragged through the mud because the other side made it.

QED.

When it comes to national policies, there's more than just the risk of kids getting COVID19. At that point during the crisis it was a necessary step for a number of reasons. It the height of the crisis the trust of the public was crucial. And the demand to close schools was very strong from all kinds of directions. Even from the medical field. Remember that one of early arguments to keep schools open, was to help nurses and doctors (and other jobs that were defined as crucial) to be able to keep doing their work. So when besides a large part of the population, even the nurses and doctors called to close the schools, the government had to cave in. When the evidence isn't strong, but a large part of the population demands you to do it anyways (similar to why we currently have mandatory face masks in public transport), the better option is to do it. That's because there's plenty of other policies you want the people to follow as well (social distancing, stay home...etc) which are considered more important. If those "weaker" policies help in getting people to do the more important stuff as well, than there's not much of a choice.

When it comes to Corona in the US, I'd rather call Trump toxic. He single-mindedly is responsible for this toxicity, if you ask me. There's an argument for blaming the GOP in Congress as well. But we've past that station with the impeachment procedure, if you ask me. Again, talking specificly about the Corona-response. Ignoring other political subjects.

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10 minutes ago, azatoth said:

The US is beyond hope. It's a post-truth society where it's so muddled that to most truth is something unknowable.

Yup. And it's spreading.

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On 7/17/2020 at 3:06 AM, azatoth said:

It's a post-truth society where it's so muddled that to most truth is something unknowable.

that's a good way to put it. some thoughts:

  • liars accuse those who would call them out as themselves being liars.
  • hostile foreign disinformation operations have the objective of disrupting the target's information supply. they sew distrust and confusion.
  • the question of which sources of information are more trustworthy is an important one. there are only so many and it's possible for individuals to compare and contrast, in order to learn where and what the spins may be. this is the basic practice that constitutes the solution. not only do you learn the spins, you also learn the mechanisms by which editors and writers of different outlets produce very different stories about the same events. for example, good journalistic practices of citing sources and providing a replicatable process for verifying information may be found in some outlets more than others. also, stories may be authored around such journalistic practices of information lineage, or, alternatively, they may be authored around purposes of presenting a narrative using suggestion and innuendo. the fundamental structure and read of an article is different, depending on whether they are reporting new facts and presenting context around those, or whether they are engaging in battle in the information space and seeking to influence opinions.
  • we cannot expect 100% of the population to dig in, that way. we are forced through trial and fire to establish new social norms by which individuals interact with each-other and communicate about journalism, which is newly important because of the changed information environment.
  • people in the early 90's didn't know shit about politics and journalism. they were much more distant from it, and had to take what they could get to a much greater extent. world actors knew they had that veil. now, with the internet, the public gets greater access, but also, now they have to sift through the raw material themselves, which was something that the journalistic institutions of the past, functioning as middle-men, had served the purpose of.
  • so those conversations with your family members in which you inquire about what news sources they use are actually fatefully important. those discussions do not have a feel of being a societal ritual, because this is a newer social function. but when you are able to be real with someone in a friendly way and help illuminate some aspect of the situation for them, this is an example of the new behaviors that are being evolved by the species as an adaptation to a change in the environment. the responsibility is decentralized. now the individual nodes tend after each-other.
  • everyone doesn't have to have an opinion. we need to quash the childish reflex for someone who doesn't analyze news to feel entitled to weigh in. i don't know how but somehow we need to gently explain to these people that they need to either dig in or be quiet. it's not a pointless question like what's your favorite sports team. don't give me an answer if you don't know. say you don't know.

tl:dr: you describe the appearance of the problem well, but it is approachable. humanity cannot allow a post-truth world. we have entered into an era of informaton warfare but it does not have to last forever.

Edited by very honest
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49 minutes ago, very honest said:

that's a good way to put it. some thoughts

  • people in the early 90's didn't know shit about politics and journalism. they were much more distant from it, and had to take what they could get to a much greater extent. world actors knew they had that veil. now, with the internet, the public gets greater access, but also, now they have to sift through the raw material themselves, which was something that the journalistic institutions of the past, functioning as middle-men, had served the purpose of.

Long post, but this section is complete bollocks.

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12 minutes ago, cwmbrancity said:

Long post, but this section is complete bollocks.

i was speaking in generalities to make the point of comparing the typical citizen's interaction with news then versus now. maybe i should have described that comparison differently. back then the channels through which one could access info were extremely more limited. there was less access and there was less info available. journalistic institutions had evolved to function as the apparatus of society responsible for news, and they filtered out stuff like russian military disinfo, which now simply gets posted to a blog and retweeted. they provided that fact-checking service, however imperfect. now that we have the direct access, we need to be able to fact-check. that's the point, stated differently.

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Donald Trump: "I don't like the cdc, they keep saying to wear masks and then not wear them then wear them again. So I've made the choice to pull their access to statistical data. These two things logically follow each other, and what I am saying is definitely the truth, and not an attempt to stop the truth/begin to spread misinformation about the virus from affecting the economy. BTW, White people get coronavirus too....so horrible question. SAD."

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7 hours ago, Rubin Farr said:

This should be the new American flag

900366A6-3EBA-4002-8FFA-48A057322179.jpeg

Nah, it's missing a "don't" right after "you". Then it'll be just right. 

Not that this needs evidence, but just a couple days ago: https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/09/889356233/stop-getting-tested-ohio-politician-tells-constituents 

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for those keeping up with trump's accomplishments, you can now add 'ultimate book of the month club' member despite having a "low life dummy" and "war-mongering fool" as a consultant

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