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Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)


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i've heard several people refer to the green new deal as being aspirational more than actual policy.. but who knows really. i just hope the dems don't fuck it all up

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People like AOC and others like her are the new type needed to get shit to change. The Dems are as much in the pocket of the moneyed class as the GOP and are dragging their feets in affecting change. Having a 'lesser of two evils' thinking when choosing who to vote on the D side is why things don't change. We need radical change and quick. The actual planet is getting fucking wrecked and there is absolutely no urgency about it...all this BS talk about processes on how to get actual policies that will cut down on GHG just doesn't cut it anymore

 

I absolutely loathe this liberal centrist take on radical propositions on how to change things. Centrists are as awful as MAGA chuds in my book.

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^^  me too. i mean.. it feels like we're grown up enough to tackle some big challenges instead of this "don't rock the boat let's stick to tiny incremental changes" type of thinking. 

 

it's nice to see some young people in congress who are a little pissed of and full of passion or righteous indignation.. even if it it's a bit cringey now and then.. it's far less cringey than these old codgers who don't get it and have been living comfortably for a long long time and are disconnected from everyday people.. not that all the old codgers are terrible.. many of them are super smart and know how to get shit done in a system that is pretty fucking dense with bullshit. 

 

we do need some kind of "new deal" with bold thinking and upsetting of systems to make real change and bring USA out of the fucking dark ages.  change happens in isolated places and works well.. there are reformers in all sectors of gov't.. be it prisons or the education system etc.. a lot of the ideas just need to become popularized and rolled out all over the country. 

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People like AOC and others like her are the new type needed to get shit to change. The Dems are as much in the pocket of the moneyed class as the GOP and are dragging their feets in affecting change. Having a 'lesser of two evils' thinking when choosing who to vote on the D side is why things don't change. We need radical change and quick. The actual planet is getting fucking wrecked and there is absolutely no urgency about it...all this BS talk about processes on how to get actual policies that will cut down on GHG just doesn't cut it anymore

 

I absolutely loathe this liberal centrist take on radical propositions on how to change things. Centrists are as awful as MAGA chuds in my book.

I don't think many here disagree with this general sentiment, but you need to consider that we're stuck in the democratic system... If AOC ends up dividing the dems it won't be of much use.

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the green new deal is incredibly dumb.

 

 

i haven't even read it. just saw some commentary that characterized it as the "government is magic" and "we'll all be taking high speed rail everywhere and it'll be so fast we won't need planes" or something like that. 

 

but really.. if it becomes a thing that gets focused and worked on it could be put together strategically. USA needs a modern power grid pretty badly. a lot of thing sneed to be modernized really. rail roads is one. america's infrastructure is fucked. really fucked. shit roads, shit bridges shit dams. we could do a better job at lot's of things. 

 

i'd like to see some action on modern nuclear power.  the system bill gates is pushing is fantastic. way safer. different tech entirely. uses depleted uranium which is essentially waste from existing nuclear reactors. i think it's a good way to transition from non renewable sources to whatever comes next. 

 

this was tested forever ago.. then the pentagon got involved and picked a different tech to power their subs and aircraft carriers. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDCEjWNGv6Y

Edited by ignatius
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People like AOC and others like her are the new type needed to get shit to change. The Dems are as much in the pocket of the moneyed class as the GOP and are dragging their feets in affecting change. Having a 'lesser of two evils' thinking when choosing who to vote on the D side is why things don't change. We need radical change and quick. The actual planet is getting fucking wrecked and there is absolutely no urgency about it...all this BS talk about processes on how to get actual policies that will cut down on GHG just doesn't cut it anymore

 

I absolutely loathe this liberal centrist take on radical propositions on how to change things. Centrists are as awful as MAGA chuds in my book.

I don't think many here disagree with this general sentiment, but you need to consider that we're stuck in the democratic system... If AOC ends up dividing the dems it won't be of much use.
100% correct. It really makes you wonder when she’s being used as a pressure point to do just that.

 

It’s gonna be kind of hard to pass a green new deal when you lose another fucking election.

Edited by Candiru
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People like AOC and others like her are the new type needed to get shit to change. The Dems are as much in the pocket of the moneyed class as the GOP and are dragging their feets in affecting change. Having a 'lesser of two evils' thinking when choosing who to vote on the D side is why things don't change. We need radical change and quick. The actual planet is getting fucking wrecked and there is absolutely no urgency about it...all this BS talk about processes on how to get actual policies that will cut down on GHG just doesn't cut it anymore

 

I absolutely loathe this liberal centrist take on radical propositions on how to change things. Centrists are as awful as MAGA chuds in my book.

I don't think many here disagree with this general sentiment, but you need to consider that we're stuck in the democratic system... If AOC ends up dividing the dems it won't be of much use.

100% correct.

 

 

 

i'm more worried about Bernie bros and the blind devotion of bernie's followers shitting in the punchbowl than i am about AOC.  AOC seems like someone who can be reasoned with when it comes to being unified to get trump out. 

 

i don't understand how people can't see that they'd have a harder time enacting progressive change under trump than they would under a democrat other than bernie if that's the way it ends up. 

Edited by ignatius
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i haven't even read it. just saw some commentary that characterized it as the "government is magic" and "we'll all be taking high speed rail everywhere and it'll be so fast we won't need planes" or something like that. 

 

but really.. if it becomes a thing that gets focused and worked on it could be put together strategically. USA needs a modern power grid pretty badly. a lot of thing sneed to be modernized really. rail roads is one. america's infrastructure is fucked. really fucked. shit roads, shit bridges shit dams. we could do a better job at lot's of things. 

 

i'd like to see some action on modern nuclear power.  the system bill gates is pushing is fantastic. way safer. different tech entirely. uses depleted uranium which is essentially waste from existing nuclear reactors. i think it's a good way to transition from non renewable sources to whatever comes next. 

 

yes, the government is magic stuff is the MMT based stuff (i.e. just print a shit ton of money for everything in the plan and cause hyperinflation), and the job guarantee (probably the worst way of dealing with unemployment/social security). the technology based stuff is also similarly terrible for the most part, waste a load of money on modernizing/retrofitting all the buildings in the country for energy efficiency (which does terribly in terms of cost/benefit, tiny impact in terms of emissions, maybe even negative impact), renewables only (no nuclear, so won't actually lead to reduced carbon emissions, i.e. the entire point of the fucking the thing), and the focus on renewables is mostly in terms of subsidies for rollout - which would just create a massive surplus of capacity compared to the amount of power actually consumed, rather than R&D, where it would be better spent (better to let the fruits of R&D compete on an economically sound footing with everything else, with carbon taxing the other side to help too). Obama already spent around $150 billion I think, on similar programs, they had pretty much zero effect (the decline in emissions in the US over recent years has been down to moving to gas for the most part). more high speed rail is probably a good idea, though big infrastructure projects like that are incredibly costly in the US, need to sort out all the graft before you can do anything ambitious.

 

the US isn't even the big problem in terms of its contribution to climate change. it doesn't need to do anything dramatic infrastructure-wise, all it needs to do is build more nuclear power plants to replace all the coal ones. that's it. the best way for the US to help globally would be to pump money into developing new technologies (both nuclear and renewable, and storage and transmission infrastructure) to give to China, India and the rest of the developing world (who are the actual cause of the problem today). focusing on r&d rather than subsidies would be much better for the US economy and employment too, the US needs high paying high skill jobs more than it needs shitty overly expensive energy. 

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I absolutely loathe this liberal centrist take on radical propositions on how to change things. Centrists are as awful as MAGA chuds in my book.

 

"I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter from Birmingham Jail"
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What's this about printing money? Tax the fucking rich, tax corporations, remove tax loopholes, shut down tax havens. There's trillions of dollars that is doing fuckall than enriching fuckers who will not even live to see the worst of climate change. Bring out the guillotines if you have to, shit is getting serious. And young people like AOC are actually getting fed up with this status quo that is actively ruining their future and their kids, if they even want to have kids into a world that is surely going to become much worse within the upcoming decades.

 

The US contributes 15% of the world CO2 emissons, half of what China does. Yes, the developing world is contributing an increasing amount, but that's just because they also want the same standard of living as the industrialized countries has had for a century, thanks to the exploitation by said industrialized countries. This is a GLOBAL problem and it needs GLOBAL effort to curtail. Fine that countries are trying to do something on a nation-level, but without true GLOBAL cooperation and consequences to those that do not do their part, it will simply not be enough. Greatest scam is how the responsibility to fight climate change has been reduced to an individual level (remember to recycle, use collective transport, fly less, eat less meat etc), instead of on an industrial level, on a national and optimally on an international level. Within a century we'll all be fucked.

 

All in all, personally I have absolutely no hope that anything substantial will be done to lessen the impact of climate change before it's too late. It will get out of hand, mass migration of displaced people, scarcity of arable land, declining food production, famine and wars. And to us who live in our cushy and developed world will likely see an increase in authoritarianism and all the goodies that entails.

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People like AOC and others like her are the new type needed to get shit to change. The Dems are as much in the pocket of the moneyed class as the GOP and are dragging their feets in affecting change. Having a 'lesser of two evils' thinking when choosing who to vote on the D side is why things don't change. We need radical change and quick. The actual planet is getting fucking wrecked and there is absolutely no urgency about it...all this BS talk about processes on how to get actual policies that will cut down on GHG just doesn't cut it anymore

 

I absolutely loathe this liberal centrist take on radical propositions on how to change things. Centrists are as awful as MAGA chuds in my book.

I don't think many here disagree with this general sentiment, but you need to consider that we're stuck in the democratic system... If AOC ends up dividing the dems it won't be of much use.

 

 I am pretty sure that (most) corporate dems are on board with the climate change thing. Obama was. I imagine Hillary would have been. This issue alone is the reason to vote dem no matter who is nominated.

 

It is important to challenge the corporate dems during the primary, but even after they probably rig the primary as they did last time, anyone left of center needs to vote for the democrats. 

 

I imagine over time there will be more "AOC' type democrats. IT seems that way since "corporate corruption" is much more obvious to the internet generation. That said there is a counter narrative that says gen z are more conservative than millennials. I suppose though only time will tell since people tend to turn more liberal as they age into their 20s if they have the capability or potential to be liberal.

 

BTW 2 random questions... why is pretty much everyone here a liberal? Is it because WATMM is heavily liberal or because this thread just appeals to liberals and conservatives just don't say anything? 

 

And do people here consider themselves a capitalist or socialist or something in the middle leaning one way or the other? I am definitely more of a capitalist but would like more socialist elements. A mix. Yeah I understand the question is vague at the end of the day without going into details.

 

Edited by Brisbot
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BTW a random question... why is pretty much everyone here a liberal? Is it because WATMM is heavily liberal or because this thread just appeals to liberals and conservatives just don't say anything? 

 

It's probably rare for conservatives to like abstract electronic fart music, and the internet in general has a liberal bias.

 

 

 

Edited by Zeffolia
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And do people here consider themselves a capitalist or socialist or something in the middle leaning one way or the other? I am definitely more of a capitalist but would like more socialist elements. A mix. Yeah I understand the question is vague at the end of the day without going into details.

 

socialism / capitalism as a dichotomy is long obsolete anyway (as is any 2 party system in the long run i believe), if there ever actually was one. also liberalism has vastly differing connotations if you compare the US / europe e.g.

 

not considering shit. isms are so 20th century, like srsly.

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^^^ you mean people assuming if something isn't white, then it's black, when in reality it is a nice shade of grey... type of thing?

Sometimes I wonder language itself isn't equipped to 100% define any idea without simplifying it since language isn't exact. Even if a word has a definition, that word also has many connotations or alternate meanings which can carry various emotions depending on who you're talking to/or the context.

However the word for many people can be super simplified by calling it for example "socialism". Basically allowing people to read into the word however they choose to, depending on how they want to . And therefore people can't really 100% communicate their meaning. Contributing to misunderstandings.

It's odd to think that you can never 100% convey an idea to anyone. But only 'get the gist' of what's being said. You don't really think of that kind of thing and generally feel language is very exact or you entirely understand what someone is saying.


 

Edited by Brisbot
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What's this about printing money? Tax the fucking rich, tax corporations, remove tax loopholes, shut down tax havens. There's trillions of dollars that is doing fuckall than enriching fuckers who will not even live to see the worst of climate change. Bring out the guillotines if you have to, shit is getting serious. And young people like AOC are actually getting fed up with this status quo that is actively ruining their future and their kids, if they even want to have kids into a world that is surely going to become much worse within the upcoming decades.

 

The US contributes 15% of the world CO2 emissons, half of what China does. Yes, the developing world is contributing an increasing amount, but that's just because they also want the same standard of living as the industrialized countries has had for a century, thanks to the exploitation by said industrialized countries. This is a GLOBAL problem and it needs GLOBAL effort to curtail. Fine that countries are trying to do something on a nation-level, but without true GLOBAL cooperation and consequences to those that do not do their part, it will simply not be enough. Greatest scam is how the responsibility to fight climate change has been reduced to an individual level (remember to recycle, use collective transport, fly less, eat less meat etc), instead of on an industrial level, on a national and optimally on an international level. Within a century we'll all be fucked.

 

All in all, personally I have absolutely no hope that anything substantial will be done to lessen the impact of climate change before it's too late. It will get out of hand, mass migration of displaced people, scarcity of arable land, declining food production, famine and wars. And to us who live in our cushy and developed world will likely see an increase in authoritarianism and all the goodies that entails.

 

The GND is about printing money, not taxing the rich, it's tax reforms are relatively modest and wouldn't put a dent in the cost of the plan.

 

I don't know where you're getting your figures, but China puts out around twice the CO2 than the US does. China's output has more than doubled in the last 20 years, and is continuing to grow at an alarming rate, India is ranked fourth (behind the EU as a whole), but at the rate it's growing will be in 3rd place soon enough (the growth rates of the EU, and most industrialised nations are fairly stagnant, the output of developing nations is growing rapidly). Maybe you were looking at per-capita numbers? They are irrelevant, the planet only cares about the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

 

You are exactly right that it's a global problem, which is why the GND is so terrible, it doesn't contribute to global solutions, and seeing as it would fail to even solve the USs own emissions problems, while tanking the economy, would serve as a cautionary tale to other nations, making them think twice about trying to fix their own problems.

 

"Environmentalists" need to get their heads out of their arses and stop being part of the problem.

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^ doubtful. donnie is a pro at finding a way out of criminal situations. he's been doing it for 50+ years. he's the villain at the end of the movie that has been beaten to a bloody pulp but still won't die. 

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