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2 hours ago, goDel said:

Yeah, he really is. The more they cry about Trump lying, the more painfull it looks. I really don't get why they're so principly hell bent on saying he lies whenever he does. There is a point where you can safely assume he is without the need to point it out. Ignoring it makes more sense at this point. It even takes away his power. Because he needs the attention. And it helps him even. Liberals should learn to use the ignore button, imo. 

this thread is about ~50% just him saying stupid shit and everyone going "wow i can't believe the stupid shit he said today!" one of the reasons i tend to stay out of it really (now, at least, i was contributing plenty the first year), all that you mentioned^. focusing on content about him, even the 'TRUMP BAD!!!!!' content, feeds it all ultimately. not saying there shouldn't be legit reporting and support of his many legal and potentially safety-threatening behaviors, but in general most of what he says and does is without real consequence. even the stuff he says and does that COULD have consequence doesn't for the most part because of the great people in the government and military and so forth who slow roll/ignore all his ridiculous bullshit. pay attention, but don't play into the news cycle cable news wankery, i say.....usually :cat:

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please be careful not to whitewash the conman's damage. i don't have time to prepare a list right now but one item that deserves more appreciation is that he fired good public servants comey and mccabe while publicly assaulting their characters in order to try to get away with his crimes and send a message to servants of justice about what happens when you try to hold trump accountable for his crimes. that is drastic, dramatic, core damage.

 

mccabe is practically a hero. he led the manhunt for the boston marathon bombers, which resulted in their capture. he got the underwear bomber to flip on al-awlaki, resulting in intel that helped take him out. he did that with the High-Value Detainee Interrogation Group that he helped create, following obama's outlawing of torture. he helped catch the bengazi attack's ringleader. he was fired 2 days before retirement, accused of corruption, and trump called his wife a loser. coincidentally, he was involved in the russia investigation.

 

as bad as the injustice to mccabe was, the more significant part is that this pattern of obstruction of justice and tacit threats becomes the new norm if the criminals are not held accountable. what we're talking about is the mechanisms of justice getting deliberately broken so that the government can become more corrupt. these are the mechanisms by which the country remains free.

 

the house has to impeach. impeachment is the only check against a malignant executive, aside from voting them out. let the senate vote no. that is its own issue, and those dudes submitting their votes for history, to shield a malignant executive, will help to remedy it.

Edited by very honest

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the fuck? 

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14 hours ago, auxien said:

this thread is about ~50% just him saying stupid shit and everyone going "wow i can't believe the stupid shit he said today!" one of the reasons i tend to stay out of it really (now, at least, i was contributing plenty the first year), all that you mentioned^. focusing on content about him, even the 'TRUMP BAD!!!!!' content, feeds it all ultimately. 

if the media didn't report on everything little thing he does, then this thread would probably be still at page 300 instead of the nearly 700 page behemoth it has become. I agree us reacting to all the crazy donnie nonsense is part of the problem, but when you go to any news site and the #1 story 99% of the time is trump saying or doing something beyond stupid, I don't know what else anyone expects? commenting on disaster after disaster just seems unavoidable. I know everyone should be past it by this point - he's never going to behave like an adult or an actual leader - but nonstop coverage of every fucking tweet is the media's fault. I get that everything from the shit show needs to be recorded/documented so he doesn't get away with "it", but maybe could they stop the 50 daily stories about him and just give us the recap when this is all over and done with?

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39 minutes ago, zero said:

if the media didn't report on everything little thing he does, then this thread would probably be still at page 300 instead of the nearly 700 page behemoth it has become. I agree us reacting to all the crazy donnie nonsense is part of the problem, but when you go to any news site and the #1 story 99% of the time is trump saying or doing something beyond stupid, I don't know what else anyone expects? commenting on disaster after disaster just seems unavoidable. I know everyone should be past it by this point - he's never going to behave like an adult or an actual leader - but nonstop coverage of every fucking tweet is the media's fault. I get that everything from the shit show needs to be recorded/documented so he doesn't get away with "it", but maybe could they stop the 50 daily stories about him and just give us the recap when this is all over and done with?

The mainstream media still hasn't shifted from this model, nor have many Dem strategists or centrist liberals and conservatives. This thread is one thing, it's cathartic and archival, but it is depressing how much entities like CNN, MSNBC, the network channels, and even NPR still superficially focus on his loud, outrageous yet ultimately trivial bullshit at the expense of hammering daily the sheer substantive corruption and abuse he and his cronies engage in. Even when they do lay into his actual crimes they get suckered into superficial and misleading avenues. I will fully admit I was way too optimistic and sucked into the Russian collusion angle being the be all end all and Muller investigation being it's unravelling. It occurred and it shouldn't be downplayed but the media and establishment totally got focused on the wrong player - Russia - versus simply focusing on Trump's egregious crimes elsewhere: his tax returns, his dark money exchanges, a litany of unprecedented executive orders, the Epstein connection, etc. 

Hell, it's taken me a while to really break free of actually being suckered in to his and his supporter's 24/7 word vomit. The sprinkling of things I hear via work small talk or via here, social media, or other forums is, incredibly, maybe 1-2% of what he's tweeted that week or even that day. I mean, part of me says it's important that there's a record of this being made to reflect on decades from now, when we can actually process it. We're still getting insights into Nixon and Reagan's persons now via archived tapes and memos. I sympathize with everything posted here but I've had to, for my own sanity, really skim past most of it.

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19 hours ago, goDel said:

Yeah, he really is. The more they cry about Trump lying, the more painfull it looks. I really don't get why they're so principly hell bent on saying he lies whenever he does. There is a point where you can safely assume he is without the need to point it out. Ignoring it makes more sense at this point. It even takes away his power. Because he needs the attention. And it helps him even. Liberals should learn to use the ignore button, imo. 

but liberals are using the ignore button. despite everything trump has done, he's still president. also, paula white made the white house sacred ground recently. and liberals used the ignore button on that too

 

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trump's whitehouse really is structured like a reality tv show.. who's gonna get fired this week.. what dumb thing will he say etc.. but amidst all that there are actual fucked up policies being rolled out and suffering is increasing, divisiveness etc.. not to mention he's all megaphone w/the economy on twitter nad yoyoing the markets and walking us into a recession because he's inept and so are most of the people around him. 

in the meantime we can sit around and throw shit at the wall until something sticks or the dems figure out an angle to chip away at until they reveal a crack that everyone can see and not deny.. but the republicans in congress ain't doing much and have no principles so this will probably just go on and on. 

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3 hours ago, ignatius said:

in the meantime we can sit around and throw shit at the wall until something sticks or the dems figure out an angle to chip away at until they reveal a crack that everyone can see and not deny.. but the republicans in congress ain't doing much and have no principles so this will probably just go on and on.

are we even throwing shit at the wall? the dems can't seem to make up their mind whether they should even begin impeachment proceedings and as for the republican doing anything? can they do anything? trump has already proved he will fire and replace anyone that's not on board with what he wants and everyone seems to back him on this (so much so in fact that even everyday citizens against it are somehow seen as traitors)

trump has kind of terraformed the society so that certain behavior is acceptable to the point where the president trolling is something that should just be accepted and tolerated

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47 minutes ago, Nebraska said:

are we even throwing shit at the wall? the dems can't seem to make up their mind whether they should even begin impeachment proceedings and as for the republican doing anything? can they do anything? trump has already proved he will fire and replace anyone that's not on board with what he wants and everyone seems to back him on this (so much so in fact that even everyday citizens against it are somehow seen as traitors)

trump has kind of terraformed the society so that certain behavior is acceptable to the point where the president trolling is something that should just be accepted and tolerated

 

what's going on with impeachment is the administration's stonewalling of subpoenas left congress with the need to enforce them through the courts. basically pelosi and nadler are anticipating that the federal courts and appeals courts will find that, of course, the executive branch should not be free from oversight, and therefor congress should be able to conduct investigations, so the subpoenas should be enforced. once the courts establish this for one case (mcgahn), the precedent will be applied to the others and then the democrats will be able to do the public hearings that will provide the most clear justification for impeachment to the public. 

 

the reason they are waiting to declare official impeachment poceedings is because a significant number of house dems live in trump districts and are reluctant to put themselves on record as being for impeachment, without having the backup of having the case laid out before the american people and the momentum being in motion. pelosi is, of course, cognizant of the fact that they could lose dozens of house seats if they play this wrong. if they go into full impeachment mode too early, what that does is it invites the propaganda machines to lambast the libs with endless lies and partisan rhetoric, all while they wait for weeks and months to be able to lay out the maximum evidence possible for the public, to give all house dems as much cover as possible. it is entirely consistent with good strategy for pelosi to do this. they would be opening themselves up for attack while they are forced to wait, otherwise.

 

nadler said the mcgahn case could be through appeals in october. 

 

this is nadler's baby. he took the job of having the responsibility to take down an unfit president, and he will do what he's supposed to. pelosi indicated in her remarks after the mueller hearing that she intends to allow a floor vote on impeachment, but they are waiting until their hand is strongest, and she specically said they will not wait forever. nadler said, if the mcgahn case is out of appeals in october, then proceedings could play out through november and articles of impeachment could be ready for a vote as early as december, but he also suggested that it could spill into next year. i anticipate house floor votes for impeachment proceedings and for articles of impeachment to both pass.

 

they are even getting new articles to add, all the time. trump dangling pardons while directing crimes is classic impeachable offense. so is the personal enrichment that the judiciary committee is currently investigating. 

 

the judiciary committee came back from summer break weeks early. they are not idling. and they are trying to do this right. i hope.

Edited by very honest

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republicans in congress could certainly do something but they're all afraid of not being re-elected. they have no principles and are just playing the us vs them game. 

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20 minutes ago, very honest said:

 

what's going on with impeachment is the administration's stonewalling of subpoenas left congress with the need to enforce them through the courts. basically pelosi and nadler are anticipating that the federal courts and appeals courts will find that, of course, the executive branch should not be free from oversight, and therefor congress should be able to conduct investigations, so the subpoenas should be enforced. once the courts establish this for one case (mcgahn), the precedent will be applied to the others and then the democrats will be able to do the public hearings that will provide the most clear justification for impeachment to the public. 

that sounds ummm... not sure. i mean, at one point i remember hearing pelosi didn't want to impeach trump because she wanted him in prison (nadler wanted impeachment proceedings to begin)

also, you said pelosi is waiting for when their hand is strongest. i remember her saying something that echoed as much but i'm curious- exactly what would she consider to enough to give her a strong hand. because part of the constant flood of posts pointing out just what crazy thing trump has done or said is (in some way) disbelief that he's still president despite that. 

it also makes for a very divided climate: on one hand you have those that see that their candidate is teflon and cannot be touched. and on the other, you have the frustrated that cannot understand why their leader is being allowed to get away with it and no guarantee that he will answer to anything

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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16 hours ago, Nebraska said:

that sounds ummm... not sure. i mean, at one point i remember hearing pelosi didn't want to impeach trump because she wanted him in prison (nadler wanted impeachment proceedings to begin)

also, you said pelosi is waiting for when their hand is strongest. i remember her saying something that echoed as much but i'm curious- exactly what would she consider to enough to give her a strong hand. because part of the constant flood of posts pointing out just what crazy thing trump has done or said is (in some way) disbelief that he's still president despite that. 

it also makes for a very divided climate: on one hand you have those that see that their candidate is teflon and cannot be touched. and on the other, you have the frustrated that cannot understand why their leader is being allowed to get away with it and no guarantee that he will answer to anything

 

when pelosi said she doesn't want trump impeached, she wants him in prison, i think she meant that she is trying to do this right, and she didn't want to let people get away with things by rushing into impeachment proceedings just because that's the idea in everyone's minds because they're remembering stuff about nixon. house dems seem to be doing things when they need to, and the strategic time for the floor impeachment proceedings vote is not yet.

 

the hand will be the strongest when they have evidence that is being withheld and they can get people to testify about trump's obstruction of justice. i'm sure they wouldn't mind having the tax returns and other financial history, too.

 

the climate is very divided. the information environment is a big part of that. during nixon, americans got their news from 5 news channels and 5 newspapers. now there are thousands (or millions) of information channels, and bad actors are taking advantage of their access to them. we are learning how bad public confusion can be, and how much of a problem it can be, as we are new to the internet era.

Edited by very honest

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10 hours ago, ignatius said:

 

 

 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

around the same time:

 

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At this point, impeachment would be a mostly symbolic gesture, it would drag on past the election.  I say just wait, and let SDNY have the whole Drumpf family in their cross hairs.

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1 hour ago, Rubin Farr said:

At this point, impeachment would be a mostly symbolic gesture, it would drag on past the election.  I say just wait, and let SDNY have the whole Drumpf family in their cross hairs.

let's do both.  it's not gonna make a difference to his base.. they'll vote for him no matter what. 

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14 hours ago, ignatius said:

let's do both.  it's not gonna make a difference to his base.. they'll vote for him no matter what. 

I'm worried any public humiliation he suffers while in office, and possibly losing the election might trigger another white male shooter to go apeshit on innocents.  Of course we'll have to listen to him claim everything was "rigged" for the rest of his life.  Which hopefully won't be very long.

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On 9/13/2019 at 1:42 AM, ignatius said:

let's do both.  it's not gonna make a difference to his base.. they'll vote for him no matter what. 

I'd say: do the investigations (regardless of calling it an impeachment procedure, unless there's a legal reason to do call it that) in order to do fact-finding and define/set norms for future presidents/administrations. in this sense there's an obligation. but the thing though, impeachment in itself is not the goal as far as i'm concerned. he should be voted out of the white house.

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4 minutes ago, goDel said:

I'd say: do the investigations (regardless of calling it an impeachment procedure, unless there's a legal reason to do call it that) in order to do fact-finding and define/set norms for future presidents/administrations. in this sense there's an obligation. but the thing though, impeachment in itself is not the goal as far as i'm concerned. he should be voted out of the white house.

yeah i agree.. he should be voted out and investigations should continue and result of those investigations should be followed through.. i think this slow pace is deliberate and probably unavoidable.  building up the pressure and proceeding w/the investigations until they kick over all the stones. keping the word "impeachment" floating around in the news and making that racist cheeto squirm. 

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Saudi Oil Attack Photos Implicate Iran, U.S. Says; Trump Hints at Military Action

 

excerpt:

Quote

The Trump administration intensified its focus on Iran Sunday as the likely culprit behind attacks on important Saudi Arabian oil facilities over the weekend, with officials citing intelligence assessments to support the accusation and President Trump saying he was prepared to take military action.

The government released satellite photographs showing what officials said were at least 17 points of impact at several Saudi energy facilities from strikes they said came from the north or northwest. That would be consistent with an attack coming from the direction of Iran or Iraq rather than from Yemen, where the Iranian-backed Houthi faction claimed responsibility.

Administration officials, in a background briefing for reporters as well as in separate interviews on Sunday, also indicated that the strikes may have come from a combination of drone and cruise missile strikes — “both and a lot of them,” as one senior United States official put it — which would indicate a degree of scope, precision and sophistication beyond the ability of the Houthi rebels alone.

Mr. Trump, however, did not name Iran, saying he needed to consult with Saudi Arabia first.

“Saudi Arabia oil supply was attacked,” he said in a tweet on Sunday evening. “There is reason to believe that we know the culprit, are locked and loaded depending on verification, but are waiting to hear from the Kingdom as to who they believe was the cause of this attack, and under what terms we would proceed!”

 

Edited by very honest

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yeah.. our 'buddies', house of saud, i'm sure this will all go well. fucking hell. 

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Nothing like tweeting out your foreign policy and showing that you’re willing to bend the knee to the saudis. 

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