Scottish Independence Round 2 announced.

[Lada Laika]

My asscheeks deserve everything they get

dibs

[Soloman Tump]

[Malkmus]

Compared to UK MPs Sturgeon does come accross as a bit more level headed and reasonable, not that thats hard.

 

BUT She, like all the rest, is a career politician. In fact there is an argument to say she is worse as her focus has become totally blinkered on  single issue for 5+ years. Meanwhile things that fall within the power of the devolved Scottish parliament continue to ignored or denigrated.

 

Another referendum was inevitable after the momentum built during the last round. BUT I totally have an issue with the timing chosen her by Sturgeon. Its totally opportunistic from her perspective. Its playing politics with peoples lives and wellbeing and only suits her agenda and not for the common good in Scotland - no matter which way you will vote.

 

Its guaranteed that we have ongoing uncertainty due to Brexit for a further 2 years minimum. Shes proposing another potentially 2 years of Campaigning and more uncertainty due to the 2nd Referendum.

Then given its a vote on a theoretical question only - Should Scotland be Independent?

its another 2-5 years of uncertainty while we scramble about trying to borrow someone else's currency and central bank function or create our own currency and infrastructure from scratch. Not to mention the potential negotiations to join EU / NATO etc....if we even want to...

 

Its potentially a 8-10 years before the dust settles on any of this upheaval. All of which just stagnates the economy(at best)  in the mean time.

 

 its fucked....time to apply for my dual Australian passport I think

[Soloman Tump]

Heard a (fairly) interesting debate on BBC 5Live last night, which talked about the need for planning an English parliament in case the UK union collapses.  I know some here would argue "well, that's Westminster" but it probably only seems that way when MPs from Scotland / Wales  / NI don't bother to turn up.

 

Also a very interesting point was that NI, Wales and Scotland all have first ministers to help put their points across at Westminster, but there is no English first minister to fight our cause when it comes to these negotiations.

[caze]

yes there is, they're called the prime minister, who generally doesn't give a toss about the other parts of the union.

[Soloman Tump]

yes there is, they're called the prime minister, who generally doesn't give a toss about the other parts of the union.

 

Just had to google it, Lloyd George (1863) was a Welsh PM.

[Amen Warrior]

Er yeah it's the prime minister, what are you talking about? Sturgeon doesnt sit in Westminster, in fact I don't think she's ever set foot in Westminster. What's yr lloyd george point about? Brown was Scottish, technically Blair as well (lol)

[Leon Sumbitches]

I've got respect for Nicola Sturgeon, seems decent and level-headed for a politician

 

Get out while you can, Scotland, or it's Tory rimming from now until doomsday (even if Labour get in it'll still be a Tory rimming, chances are), if you don't leave at this point it's basically Stockholm syndrome

[ignatius]

heck. scotland doin a leave. 

 

good luck. i hope it works out. scotland kinda gets the shaft from UK no?  seems at odds anyways but i've no horse in this race either though i know some friends who are pro-leave in scotland so for their sake i hope it all works out. 

[doublename]

Slightly off-topic, but are there any good UK politics podcasts out there?

[BCM]

scotland kinda gets the shaft from UK no?

Scotland IS IN the UK. The Scottish National Party have 56 members of the UK parliament, the 3rd most represented after the Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives, Labour, and Liberal Democrat parties also have Scottish MPs and vote on policy and legislation alongside MPs from England, Wales and Northern Ireland representing different parties. The Conservative Party has the majority representation with 330 MPs out of a total of 650 seats.

 

I think you may be making the common mistake of thinking the UK means England, and that somehow England enjoys giving Scotland a raw deal. This is incorrect.

[ignatius]

 

scotland kinda gets the shaft from UK no?

Scotland IS IN the UK. The Scottish National Party have 56 members of the UK parliament, the 3rd most represented after the Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives, Labour, and Liberal Democrat parties also have Scottish MPs and vote on policy and legislation alongside MPs from England, Wales and Northern Ireland representing different parties. The Conservative Party has the majority representation with 330 MPs out of a total of 650 seats.

 

I think you may be making the common mistake of thinking the UK means England, and that somehow England enjoys giving Scotland a raw deal. This is incorrect.

 

 

 

i meant from the current scenario of being part of the UK. does it shake out fairly?  seems scotland is at odds with lot's of things that happen down south and they have a lot of resources but aren't fairly represented?  perhaps that's just how my scotish friends characterize things. 

[caze]

time to wind up the united kingdom, should create a federal celtic superstate, we'd even let wales join (maybe).

[Soloman Tump]

 

scotland kinda gets the shaft from UK no?

Scotland IS IN the UK. The Scottish National Party have 56 members of the UK parliament, the 3rd most represented after the Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives, Labour, and Liberal Democrat parties also have Scottish MPs and vote on policy and legislation alongside MPs from England, Wales and Northern Ireland representing different parties. The Conservative Party has the majority representation with 330 MPs out of a total of 650 seats.

 

I think you may be making the common mistake of thinking the UK means England, and that somehow England enjoys giving Scotland a raw deal. This is incorrect.

This is what I wanted to write but failed.

[Soloman Tump]

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-barnett-formula-flawed-favour-scotland-and-northern-ireland/

 

If Scotland leave, I'm guessing England might then end up getting a fairer deal and Wales would benefit too.

 

And good luck to the Scots trying the get a net gain out of being an EU member, that is if they ever get let in (which looks highly unlikely)

[BCM]

 

 

scotland kinda gets the shaft from UK no?

Scotland IS IN the UK. The Scottish National Party have 56 members of the UK parliament, the 3rd most represented after the Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives, Labour, and Liberal Democrat parties also have Scottish MPs and vote on policy and legislation alongside MPs from England, Wales and Northern Ireland representing different parties. The Conservative Party has the majority representation with 330 MPs out of a total of 650 seats.

 

I think you may be making the common mistake of thinking the UK means England, and that somehow England enjoys giving Scotland a raw deal. This is incorrect.

 

i meant from the current scenario of being part of the UK. does it shake out fairly?

Scotland accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending.

 

Scotland also has a devolved Scottish pariament in Edinburgh comprising only Scottish MPs to decide on policy affecting only Scotland. As well as this the SNP are the 3rd most represented party in the UK parliament in Westminster. England do not have their own parliament and have no representation in Scotland.

 

Most of the anger from Scotland is aimed at the Conservative party and is more political and emotional in nature than factual (imo).

[Tricone RC]

 it could be a pretty expedited process, as they already qualify for the economic and legislative standards for EU membership. the EU might want to allow them jump the queue just to piss off the english anyway.

Yeah I can see it happening fairly quickly. The old Project Fear line was that Spain would block Scotland so as to keep the Catalans and Basques down. But the post-Brexit situation is totally different, and I doubt Spain would actually give a toss, European loyalties might come before sticking one to the minorities

 

time to wind up the united kingdom, should create a federal celtic superstate, we'd even let wales join (maybe).

Gaelic superstate maybe... I have a cybernat cousin in Fife who always talks about how Wales is some kind of Celtic kin oppressed by England. Always made me lol since Wales is absolutely nothing like Scotland. For ample proof, see how crap Plaid does in any/all elections, and how Wales is represented by UKIP at the EU Parliament, and voted Brexit

 

edit: lol double quote wtf

[caze]

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-barnett-formula-flawed-favour-scotland-and-northern-ireland/

 

If Scotland leave, I'm guessing England might then end up getting a fairer deal and Wales would benefit too.

 

And good luck to the Scots trying the get a net gain out of being an EU member, that is if they ever get let in (which looks highly unlikely)

 

why would it be highly unlikely? the only sticking point I can see would be the Euro, and even if they couldn't agree to join the EU without the Euro (and there's a decent chance they would) they could get around that by just joining the single market instead (like Norway), or via a group of bilateral deals (like Switzerland). there was a lot of talk of the Norway option not being on the table for the UK after it left the EU, because it wouldn't be in the EFTA-nations interests (the UK would become the biggest member, putting them at a competitive disadvantage), and because the EU didn't want to let the UK away with too sweet a deal - needed to punish them; but neither of those apply to Scotland.

 

 

scotland kinda gets the shaft from UK no?

Scotland IS IN the UK. The Scottish National Party have 56 members of the UK parliament, the 3rd most represented after the Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives, Labour, and Liberal Democrat parties also have Scottish MPs and vote on policy and legislation alongside MPs from England, Wales and Northern Ireland representing different parties. The Conservative Party has the majority representation with 330 MPs out of a total of 650 seats.

 

I think you may be making the common mistake of thinking the UK means England, and that somehow England enjoys giving Scotland a raw deal. This is incorrect.

 

 

Just because Scotland has representation in the UK parliament doesn't mean Scotland is getting just democratic representation. Due to demographics and the first-past-the-post electoral system England will always control what happens in Scotland as long as the current constitutional arrangement is in place.

[caze]

 

 it could be a pretty expedited process, as they already qualify for the economic and legislative standards for EU membership. the EU might want to allow them jump the queue just to piss off the english anyway.

Yeah I can see it happening fairly quickly. The old Project Fear line was that Spain would block Scotland so as to keep the Catalans and Basques down. But the post-Brexit situation is totally different, and I doubt Spain would actually give a toss, European loyalties might come before sticking one to the minorities

 

time to wind up the united kingdom, should create a federal celtic superstate, we'd even let wales join (maybe).

Gaelic superstate maybe... I have a cybernat cousin in Fife who always talks about how Wales is some kind of Celtic kin oppressed by England. Always made me lol since Wales is absolutely nothing like Scotland. For ample proof, see how crap Plaid does in any/all elections, and how Wales is represented by UKIP at the EU Parliament, and voted Brexit

 

edit: lol double quote wtf

 

 

The reason that Spain wouldn't have a problem with it is that the UK agrees in principle to the Scottish independence referendum, while the Spanish don't agree to the right of the Catalans to hold one. Only if Scotland were to declare independence without UK consent would Spain would block it. They're on record with that.

 

Yeah, not much realistic chance of the Welsh wanting out at the moment, I was mostly joking. Though it is an intriguing idea, especially as it might make the Unionists in NI a lot more comfortable with joining, with their Scottish kin on board as well there's less chance of a Satanic Papish plot taking hold   .

 

That double-quote thing happens when you copy and paste posts rather than using the Quote button I think.

[BCM]

 

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-barnett-formula-flawed-favour-scotland-and-northern-ireland/

 

If Scotland leave, I'm guessing England might then end up getting a fairer deal and Wales would benefit too.

 

And good luck to the Scots trying the get a net gain out of being an EU member, that is if they ever get let in (which looks highly unlikely)

why would it be highly unlikely? the only sticking point I can see would be the Euro, and even if they couldn't agree to join the EU without the Euro (and there's a decent chance they would) they could get around that by just joining the single market instead (like Norway), or via a group of bilateral deals (like Switzerland). there was a lot of talk of the Norway option not being on the table for the UK after it left the EU, because it wouldn't be in the EFTA-nations interests (the UK would become the biggest member, putting them at a competitive disadvantage), and because the EU didn't want to let the UK away with too sweet a deal - needed to punish them; but neither of those apply to Scotland.

 

scotland kinda gets the shaft from UK no?

Scotland IS IN the UK. The Scottish National Party have 56 members of the UK parliament, the 3rd most represented after the Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives, Labour, and Liberal Democrat parties also have Scottish MPs and vote on policy and legislation alongside MPs from England, Wales and Northern Ireland representing different parties. The Conservative Party has the majority representation with 330 MPs out of a total of 650 seats.

 

I think you may be making the common mistake of thinking the UK means England, and that somehow England enjoys giving Scotland a raw deal. This is incorrect.

Just because Scotland has representation in the UK parliament doesn't mean Scotland is getting just democratic representation. Due to demographics and the first-past-the-post electoral system England will always control what happens in Scotland as long as the current constitutional arrangement is in place.

you completely discount the scottish parliament then (in terms of controlling what happens in scotland)? this is i believe one of the issues with this whole thing - it's become (to some people) about sticking it to the english, and more specifically, the tories. emotions and old wounds come to the forefront and i believe rational decision-making, taking into account of the facts in a neutral way takes a backseat. scotland are a net beneficiary of revenue from the UK and receive more funds per capita from westminster than england do.

[caze]

you completely discount the scottish parliament then (in terms of controlling what happens in scotland)? this is i believe one of the issues with this whole thing - it's become (to some people) about sticking it to the english, and more specifically, the tories. emotions and old wounds come to the forefront and i believe rational decision-making, taking into account of the facts in a neutral way takes a backseat. scotland are a net beneficiary of revenue from the UK and receive more funds per capita from westminster than england do.

 

I'm not completely discounting it, don't be silly. The first round of devolution only achieved so much, there are limits to what the Scottish parliament can do, it had no say on leaving the EU obviously (which is kind of a big deal, no? and why there is now going to be another referendum), and it's powers are subject to repeal/amendment by the UK parliament at any time. And the fact that the rest of the UK currently subsidises Scotland and Northern Ireland doesn't mean that the policies being enacted in the UK parliament are necessarily beneficial to either region. Scotland leaving the union would mean they'd need to make up any Barnet-formula spending shortfall, but there are plenty of avenues open to them to do so, and no doubt the influx of formerly English-based companies looking for an English speaking base to trade freely with Europe will make up a large part of it.

[Soloman Tump]

 

you completely discount the scottish parliament then (in terms of controlling what happens in scotland)? this is i believe one of the issues with this whole thing - it's become (to some people) about sticking it to the english, and more specifically, the tories. emotions and old wounds come to the forefront and i believe rational decision-making, taking into account of the facts in a neutral way takes a backseat. scotland are a net beneficiary of revenue from the UK and receive more funds per capita from westminster than england do.

 

I'm not completely discounting it, don't be silly. The first round of devolution only achieved so much, there are limits to what the Scottish parliament can do, it had no say on leaving the EU obviously (which is kind of a big deal, no? and why there is now going to be another referendum), and it's powers are subject to repeal/amendment by the UK parliament at any time. And the fact that the rest of the UK currently subsidises Scotland and Northern Ireland doesn't mean that the policies being enacted in the UK parliament are necessarily beneficial to either region. Scotland leaving the union would mean they'd need to make up any Barnet-formula spending shortfall, but there are plenty of avenues open to them to do so, and no doubt the influx of formerly English-based companies looking for an English speaking base to trade freely with Europe will make up a large part of it.

 

 

 

The people in Scotland did have a say on leaving the EU - there was a referendum! But then Oxfordshire (where I live) also voted by a vast majority for staying in the EU, and there are no calls for independence here.

 

The Scottish (and Welsh, and NI) first ministers are all able to voice their opinions on what happens with the UK and try to fight their respective corners.  There is however no English first minister.

 

Looks like there is no immediate referendum on the cards - and IMO quite rightly so.  Lets sort out the Brexit mess first, and see how things pan out.  How can you conscientiously vote on In/Out UK without seeing what the UK will look like post-EU?

 

Once the dust settles in the EU and the fees go up to counteract the UK's departure - it may look less appealing a place anyway. Also:-

 

This seems like a complicated subject

[caze]

The people in Scotland did have a say on leaving the EU - there was a referendum! But then Oxfordshire (where I live) also voted by a vast majority for staying in the EU, and there are no calls for independence here.

 

The Scottish (and Welsh, and NI) first ministers are all able to voice their opinions on what happens with the UK and try to fight their respective corners.  There is however no English first minister.

 

Looks like there is no immediate referendum on the cards - and IMO quite rightly so.  Lets sort out the Brexit mess first, and see how things pan out.  How can you conscientiously vote on In/Out UK without seeing what the UK will look like post-EU?

 

Once the dust settles in the EU and the fees go up to counteract the UK's departure - it may look less appealing a place anyway. Also:-

 

This seems like a complicated subject

 

 

The people had their say in Scotland, and their say was ignored. Not much of a say then, was it?

 

Oxfordshire isn't a country.

 

There is an English first minister, as explained before, the prime minister. It's only 'technicality correct' to say that there isn't one, for all intents and purposes there is (plus there is now the rule in the commons where English MPs have a veto on votes relating to issues dealt with by the devolved assemblies).

 

Sturgeon's plan for the referendum would have been to hold it after it became clear the degree of mess brexit would be leaving the country, but not too late that it would disadvantage Scotland from joining the EU. Scotland should hold the referendum anyway, and declare independence unilaterally if required.

 

Scotland never should have joined the union in the first place, it only happened because the Lairds all lost their pants in the Panama colony, and that only happened because the English had the place under a blockade.

[ignatius]

This seems like a complicated subject

 

 

in times like this you build a wall and ban immigrants from certain countries and people get behind you. complexity and nuance are not to be considered.  build a wall. ban people. 

[ignatius]

 

 

 

scotland kinda gets the shaft from UK no?

Scotland IS IN the UK. The Scottish National Party have 56 members of the UK parliament, the 3rd most represented after the Conservatives and Labour. The Conservatives, Labour, and Liberal Democrat parties also have Scottish MPs and vote on policy and legislation alongside MPs from England, Wales and Northern Ireland representing different parties. The Conservative Party has the majority representation with 330 MPs out of a total of 650 seats.

 

I think you may be making the common mistake of thinking the UK means England, and that somehow England enjoys giving Scotland a raw deal. This is incorrect.

 

i meant from the current scenario of being part of the UK. does it shake out fairly?

Scotland accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending.

 

Scotland also has a devolved Scottish pariament in Edinburgh comprising only Scottish MPs to decide on policy affecting only Scotland. As well as this the SNP are the 3rd most represented party in the UK parliament in Westminster. England do not have their own parliament and have no representation in Scotland.

 

Most of the anger from Scotland is aimed at the Conservative party and is more political and emotional in nature than factual (imo).

 

 

 

thanks for the stats.  i know they're in the UK.. meant the scenario of being in the UK maybe wasn't the best deal but obviously there is a lot to consider. 

 

in some ways this is like USA.. we're 50 states all local reps and local congress local governors etc and larger and smaller states having very different ideas about priorities etc.. but we're all still wanker americans of varying (mono) cultures... but in UK i guess there only a handful of different states yada yada yada...