Scottish Independence Round 2 announced.

[Schlitze]

In the UK theres this party called the tories and they are not considered relevant in scotland because they mainly cater to fox hunting, middle england ponces with stiff upper lips. They won't ever be forgiven in scotland and so began to a campaign to sever all ties with them in attempt to heal the wounds of their wretched legacy.

[BCM]

Scotland never should have joined the union in the first place, it only happened because the Lairds all lost their pants in the Panama colony, and that only happened because the English had the place under a blockade.

you have gordo'd your argument with this statement.

[BCM]

A: because that's just like, your opinion, man

 

B: because you're talking about things that happened 300 years ago.

 

it's no better than some bitter old wine-soaked Tory declaring we should never have given up the Empire and we only did it because of that utter rascal Gandhi.

 

again, you illustrate my point well - a large part of the indepedence movement is based on disagreements and emotions that should have been confined to history long ago. it's stiring up old prejudices and archetypes that aren't relevant any more in my opinion.

 

i also find it ironic that scotland may give up on the union to gain "independence" but will willingly join an even larger union (the EU) and very likely have to surrender more powers to brussels than they currently do to westminster. true independence is in all probability unachievable for scotland.

[caze]

I don't illustrate your point at all, that was just a by-the-way (though a factual by-the-way).

 

The dissolution of the union makes sense for purely democratic and practical economic reasons.

 

And an independent Scotland would not be giving up more powers to the EU, it already gives up all of the powers to the EU that it would have to give up (with the possible exception of the Euro, and I think Scotland retaining the £ is the most likely scenario anyway), because it is currently a member of the EU. When it finally leaves the UK it will regain sovereign powers from the UK, and if it joins the EU the EU will retain the current arrangement they already have with them.

[BCM]

scotland in the EU as part of the UK and scotland in the EU as an independent country are two different things. there is no guarantee scotland would even be allowed to join for one thing...new agreements would need to be reached based on scotland's GDP rather than the UK's etc.

[caze]

The SNP have already done all the math on that, based on their own GDP they'd still be net contributors to the EU budget for example. Like I said before, they already meet all the criteria for membership. The only thing that would be up for discussion really would be the euro, and they have plenty of room for maneuvering in those negotiations as well.

 

Another thing on the previous point re the Barnet formula I just learned, Scotland have contributed £222 billion more in tax revenue per head than the rest of the UK in the last 30+ years, not sure where that leaves the extra spending per head when you take that into account.

[BCM]

The SNP have already done all the math on that

they really haven't and they have a huge amount of unanswered questions and gaps in their figures. there is absolutely no way you can say scotland have some kind of free EU pass and would definitely be accepted should they leave the UK. the SNP are not being transparent or honest here in this regard.

[BCM]

Scotland have contributed £222 billion more in tax revenue per head than the rest of the UK

£222 billion per head?? so every person in scotland has each contributed £222 billion more in tax? i think you may be slightly wrong here...

 

the actual figure is that scotland does in fact pay around £800 per head in tax more than the rest of the UK, but that is only part of the story:

 

84.2% of taxes from UK oil and gas are accrued to scotland. scotland only accounts for 8.3% of the UK population, so when tax per head is calculated, scotland of course are paying "more". however, scotland also receive around £1200 more spending per head than the rest of the UK so are still net beneficiaries of the overall revenue.

[Malkmus]

Not sure which side of the border you reside BCM but your comment about this being a decades too late crusade against the Tories ring true with my experience in the west of Scotland too. Those that are pushing independence the hardest in my social sphere are the ones that seem to think independence is the back door to creating some sort of Socialist paradise.

Every reason they put forward in favour basically boils down to banishing tory rule forever from Scotland.

Now given we have returned 1 tory MP to Westminster in the last election but still have them as our government its understandable.

But in any democracy there are always competing regional priorities.

 

Its common to hear people in the No camp say, Well I cant stand the SNP and or Sturgeon / Salmond so they aren't going to vote Yes. The usual reply from the Yes side is well you aren't voting for a political party, anyone can get in once we had a first general election. But then they follow that up with all the usual stopping tory rule etc, which just goes against the whole its not a political party discussion. Just like every other Western European country at the moment the centre left / labour movement is cannibalising itself or unelectable - there is nothing to say a new centre right party wont fill that gap in Scotland post independence. We are naturally a prudent or for want of a better word conservative (small c) country historically.

 

I just have the feeling that if they do get there wish for an independent Scotland they are going to be very disappointed.

It will be the New labour election win in 1997 all over again. I'm old enough to remember that all my student friends had parties the night 18 years of a UK tory government ended as if it was some new brave dawn. Fuck All changed, if fact it was worse watching Blair flounce about as if he was in Oasis.

 

If the Scottish parliament has proved anything its that politicians are useless selfish bastards all. It doesn't matter what nationality they are or whether they travel to London or Edinburgh to make a decision.

We will just be replacing one regional inequality with another. The Scottish / Westminster equation just becomes a Highlands & Islands v Central Belt equation In an independent Scotland.

 

anyway that turned into a bit of a ramble...I better get back to contributing to the economy while I still have a job.

[Tricone RC]

 

 

If the Scottish parliament has proved anything its that politicians are useless selfish bastards all. It doesn't matter what nationality they are or whether they travel to London or Edinburgh to make a decision.

We will just be replacing one regional inequality with another. The Scottish / Westminster equation just becomes a Highlands & Islands v Central Belt equation In an independent Scotland.

 

anyway that turned into a bit of a ramble...I better get back to contributing to the economy while I still have a job.

Agree totally and that's also how it is in Wales. The Welsh Assembly just means that 90% of Wales gets ignored by Cardiff instead of being ignored by Westminster. Labour has fucked public services in Wales at least as much as the Tories have in England. So it's depressing to see that the arguments of so many Scotnats (my rellies included) boil down to this kick-out-the-tories-and-everything-will-be-magical line of reasoning. It's nursery school level bollocks.

 

Having said that, I have nothing at all against Scots leaving and I would quite like them to, if only to see how well they get on. If they do succeed then they'll be another model for England and/or Wales to emulate

 

I wonder what effect Scoxit (lol) will have on British/English identity. It seems to me like a lot of English fellas, especially in the SE, are almost afraid to refer to themselves as English and so they're opposing Scot independence so as to avoid having to confront this. Tonnes of uni friends of mine fall in this camp whereby Englishness is somehow seen as inherently racist, whereas British is a safe, inclusive label. Never made sense to me, at least from my old rural borderland viewpoint. The old skinhead twats have always flown Union flags at least as much as George Crosses. When I was younger I always associated "Britishness" with being proud of the Empire, tally ho what what, and that insufferable demographic that buys up rural holiday homes. "English" and "Welsh" were for the normies, distinguished only by which side of the Monnow you lived on

[eugene]

is there any actual nationalist-ethnic sentiment behind wanting to leave uk? it doesn't seem like scots are oppressed as a typical ethnic minority usually is, i mean no one prevents them from blowing pipes or wearing skirts or watching old braveheart vhs's. so this whole thing is basically just wanting to leave because tories are cunts and this ancient nationalist crap is just an excuse? i'm sure many english people would like to have this privilege too.

[Amen Warrior]

The tories are a complete load of abject fucking cunts though. I understand the appeal

[BCM]

[Amen Warrior]

[BCM]

[Schlitze]

It's a fistful of dollars stand off betwteen Sturgeon and May. They stumble through interviews with Peston and Poncenby respectively, it's like a game of poker. They are both remarkably coy....can't give straight answers and repeat the same sentence. Sturgeon's tryin to work this into a new cold war. About time we got these submarines movin'

[caze]

Sorry, misspoke, that was obviously the total figure. The majority of the taxes on oil and gas are accrued to Scotland because the majority of the oil and gas are in Scotland, so it's not much of a surprise really. If it's around 800 per head, and they get 1200 more in spending then it's only a net spending deficit of 400 per head, which would obviously be a lot more manageable than what was said before.

 

There's a lot of speculation on what will happen with Scotland's north sea revenues, i.e. that the current downturn is a long term thing, and will only get worse, but predicting what happens in the global fossil fuel market is a waste of time, it's incredibly volatile, and pretty much every time people make predictions about fields drying up then just find more of them, also technological advances could drive down the extraction costs, currently a major impact on its competitiveness compared to the middle east. An independent Scotland would be in a position to extract far more revenue per barrel as well, the UK taxes it at a negligible rate compared to Norway for example.

 

But even if they lost that as a significant revenue stream, the only solution would be to grow their own economy, and they're going to have a much harder time doing that outside of the EU.

 

they really haven't and they have a huge amount of unanswered questions and gaps in their figures.

 

 

I'm pretty sure they have, do you have any specifics here?

 

there is absolutely no way you can say scotland have some kind of free EU pass and would definitely be accepted should they leave the UK. the SNP are not being transparent or honest here in this regard.

I never said they would 100% certainly be accepted back in, but it's incredibly likely.

 

Not the answer she was looking for, lol:

 

[Tricone RC]

Consensus amongst my O&G buddies is that the North Sea party is over, since production has declined consistently since the end of the 90s despite the fantastic prices earlier this decade and all the exploration that that spurned. Rigs are being decommissioned instead of mothballed (including the famous Brent rigs of Brent Crude fame) which seems ominous. The fields in West of Shetland might kick off in the future if prices go up enough though, still mostly in UK (and future Scottish) waters so Scotland could cash in there

 

But yeah, I don't think potential lack of O&G revenues is an especially strong argument against independence. Theres enough other stuff they can do

[cwmbrancity]

 

This seems like a complicated subject

 

 

in times like this you build a wall and ban immigrants from certain countries and people get behind you. complexity and nuance are not to be considered.  build a wall. ban people. 

 

 

 

the irony is Scotland as a "nation" essentially owes its existence to walls, Antonine & Hadrian's Roman constructions, plus English immigration

 

prior to the Romans & after their withdrawal in 410AD, the old tribal regions that fused lowland Scotland with present-day northern England were indigenous/Brythonic

 

its only after the Anglo-Saxon invasion began during the 6/7th centuries AD that northern Brythonic kingdoms that cover Yr Hen Ogledd (the old North or indigenous northern Britons) became separated from Brythonic Wales & eventually Cornwall

 

i think Scottish independence would be a huge mistake for these islands, devolved powers to the parliament being the logical outcome, the problem there being that if an incompetent majority party is running said parliament (like there is here in Wales with Labour) the problems only escalate

 

either way so-called professional representatives of the people will fuck it right up, as seems the way with the human race

[Soloman Tump]

I will personally be really annoyed if my favourite Whisky gets more expensive.

 

So from a selfish personal perspective, WE ARE BETTER 2GEVA.

[cwmbrancity]

where the fuck is Corbyn in all this?

 

New Labour lost the Scottish vote when Scots wised up to the fact that elected representatives in Westminster and the parliiamentary process didnt give a fuck about matters north of Cumbria/Northumberland/Durham

 

its a national disgrace that not only has Labour dropped large buckets of piss in the Brexit referendum, it also cant seem to collectively add anything of substance to the Scottish ref.2.0 debate......and as for actual leadership........

 

the demographic seems to paint an urban persuasion for "yes" and regional position of "no", but this could just be a communist/Islington BBC fake news agenda:

 

 

 

plus Schlitzey is probably a Hearts Jambo, say no more

[cwmbrancity]

 

 

 

If the Scottish parliament has proved anything its that politicians are useless selfish bastards all. It doesn't matter what nationality they are or whether they travel to London or Edinburgh to make a decision.

We will just be replacing one regional inequality with another. The Scottish / Westminster equation just becomes a Highlands & Islands v Central Belt equation In an independent Scotland.

 

anyway that turned into a bit of a ramble...I better get back to contributing to the economy while I still have a job.

Agree totally and that's also how it is in Wales. The Welsh Assembly just means that 90% of Wales gets ignored by Cardiff instead of being ignored by Westminster. Labour has fucked public services in Wales at least as much as the Tories have in England. So it's depressing to see that the arguments of so many Scotnats (my rellies included) boil down to this kick-out-the-tories-and-everything-will-be-magical line of reasoning. It's nursery school level bollocks.

 

Having said that, I have nothing at all against Scots leaving and I would quite like them to, if only to see how well they get on. If they do succeed then they'll be another model for England and/or Wales to emulate

 

I wonder what effect Scoxit (lol) will have on British/English identity. It seems to me like a lot of English fellas, especially in the SE, are almost afraid to refer to themselves as English and so they're opposing Scot independence so as to avoid having to confront this. Tonnes of uni friends of mine fall in this camp whereby Englishness is somehow seen as inherently racist, whereas British is a safe, inclusive label. Never made sense to me, at least from my old rural borderland viewpoint. The old skinhead twats have always flown Union flags at least as much as George Crosses. When I was younger I always associated "Britishness" with being proud of the Empire, tally ho what what, and that insufferable demographic that buys up rural holiday homes. "English" and "Welsh" were for the normies, distinguished only by which side of the Monnow you lived on

 

 

where were you brought up, if i could ask, as the Monnow isnt too far from here?

 

100% accurate with the Welsh Assembly. Labour's record is appaling. Education and NHS stats only cover the quantitative analysis, where-as the accumulative qualitative effects are immeasurably worse if you find yourself in an area with shit schools and fractured health and community resources

 

As for notions on identity, its always about about exclusion & incorporation. In the US the stars and stripes can be flown without associated trauma, here the Union Jack and flag of St George are associated with hooliganism & the establishment, so even if i wasnt a fan of his tunes respeck to Billy Bragg for trying to reclaim the Union Jack from nationalists and white supremacist groups. Its a pretty cool design in & of itself anyway despite no Dragon/St David representation = sad-wank

 

if you identify as English, you are loaded with ghosts of Empire, institutional class structures from birth to grave & the unspoken truth that in the long history and prehistory of these islands the English are fairly recent arrivals yet they have tended to behave as if this wasnt so. The buried giant of forgotten collective memory

 

Colonialism, whether Cromwell's record in Eire, or the later slave trade, or 4/5 centuries of global rape & pillaging, leaves a bitter taste, but its the English establishment that presided over these events with of course help from other home nations...eg: Scotland contributed large numbers in colonial administration than is ever really accepted north of the border unless its from ship-building or engineering context

 

Its complex, but at least in the US there is "First Nations" status, despite the decimation of those cultures, here that very idea would be given short shrift

 

Cornwall is "Celtic" but falls within English boundaries, then you have English people with Irish, Scottish and Welsh ancestry, so the question then is how you separate land, genetics and culture, which you cant without default to bs "blut und boden" outcomes

 

what was the question again?

[cwmbrancity]

 

 

A large scale study of Scottish people's DNA is threatening to "rewrite the nation's history", according to author Alistair Moffat. Scotland, he told the Edinburgh Inetrnational book festival, despite a long-held belief that its ethnic make-up was largely Scots, Celtic, Viking and Irish, was in fact "one of the most diverse nations on earth".

 

"The explanation is simple. We are a people on the edge of beyond; on the end of a massive continent. Peoples were migrating northwest; and they couldn't get any further. We have collected them."

 

He and his colleagues have found West African, Arabian, south-east Asian and Siberian ancestry in Scotland. "The West African ancestry mostly originates in the 18th century, so it is almost certainly to do with the slave trade," he said.

 

David Lammy, MP for Tottenham, whose immediate ancestors are from the Caribbean, also revealed at the festival this week that DNA analysis had shown he has Orcadian ancestry – also likely to relate to British involvement in the Atlantic slave trade.

One per cent of all Scottish men, said Moffat, have Berber ancestry – why, he says, remains a mystery, though he believes that the penetration of people from the medieval caliphate of Cordoba "must have been immensely important". Moffat said his colleagues had also discovered DNA originating from Roman-period Illyria, the area occupied by modern Croatia, which may relate to Roman occupation of lowland Scotland.

Many of Moffat and Wilson's findings are laid out in their book The Scots - A Genetic Journey.

 

But research continues apace, and most recent finding suggests that porridge has been a crucial factor in the nation's early history, Moffat said.

Until recently, he said, it had been believed that farming arrived incrementally in Scotland, around 3,000 years ago, by a process of slow and gradual adoption, by women, of new techniques. But their recent DNA research suggests something quite different, he said: that it arrived quickly via young male immigrants from what is now Germany.

These young men, he said, brought brand-new techniques with them, planting grass-derived crops that could be turned into porridge and fed to young children. This new improved food production reduced the period, argued Moffat, that the hunter-gatherer mothers had to devote to breast-feeding, and thus increased their fertility. This led to a population explosion, he said, laying the seeds of a recognisable society in northern Britain. "It is a revelation. Porridge, and I'm not joking about this, is absolutely crucial to our history."

Not every analysis of DNA has delivered welcome results. DNA analysis on Moffat himself – a proud Scottish Borders man – showed that his ancestry was English. "We don't offer counselling for that," he said.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/aug/15/scotland-dna-study-project

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Scots-A-Genetic-Journey/dp/1841589411

[Tricone RC]

 

if you identify as English, you are loaded with ghosts of Empire, institutional class structures from birth to grave & the unspoken truth that in the long history and prehistory of these islands the English are fairly recent arrivals yet they have tended to behave as if this wasnt so. The buried giant of forgotten collective memory

 

Colonialism, whether Cromwell's record in Eire, or the later slave trade, or 4/5 centuries of global rape & pillaging, leaves a bitter taste, but its the English establishment that presided over these events with of course help from other home nations...eg: Scotland contributed large numbers in colonial administration than is ever really accepted north of the border unless its from ship-building or engineering context

Yes but like you say, all of this was committed by inbred poshos with lisps, who even to this day whizz around far above our heads like Lovecraftian gods, running the Oxbridge > politics > cushy exec directorship circuit, utterly oblivious to the lives of the rest of us. I don't see why they should be relevant to any normal person's identity. I associate that stuff with Britain because for the last several centuries, most of those poshos gladly did all their dodgy empire stuff under the Union flag. I want to live in a country that dispenses with all that shite as much as possible, including the modern wannabe-world-power stuff.

 

Also not quite sure how the ethnic history thing is relevant - it's interesting history, but nothing more than that, and not really anything we should be basing political entities around anymore. The Anglo Saxons and Danes came to the British Isles across the mid first millennium. And?

[cwmbrancity]

its place in the evolution of British ethnic identities, you seem to have an edge to your tone so i'll respond as politely as possible

 

its not quantum mechanics - if Scots see themselves as racially distinct from England, thats what nationalism feeds on

 

and, because English nationalism is generally frowned on, yet Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Max or whateverthefuck else is considered acceptable, it plays into the schism of how independence referendums, just like brexit, are arrived @

 

case study - take a few moments & you'd see a comedian like Limmy pretty much wrath on Englishness (which i quite enjoy), would an English comic still have a career if they did something comparable/similar?

 

not since Bernard Manning

 

and, as an ex-archaeologist i have natural chronological bias towards British & Irish pre-history, ie looking @ sites across Britain before the Anglo-Scandinavians pitched up, that stretch back before the last ice-age so there's the rub, migrations have brought distinct groups to these islands, but even stating that as fact seems to irk you, but its fact of identity politics today just as its always been among humans - exclusion & incorporation

 

and that should cover all the bases