Arranging a track

[Kidrodi]

I feel like the thing I struggle the most when making a track is the arrangement. I always either get stuck in a 4 bar loop or a simple 1 minute track and have no idea where to go next.

I guess this is the downside of working solely in a linear DAW like environment as opposed to the intuitiveness of jamming with some gear.

 

How do you guys go about arranging/editing your tracks into something cohesive? Got any advice?

[auxien]

Honestly, I leave a lot of shit in that state. Like plenty of other electronic musicians, I've got dozens if not hundreds of incomplete bits that I thought might become a track some day. I'll occasionally dig back through them and find something that inspires me to add on or whatever...but that's not usually the case tbh. Just recently while digging back through last year's false starts I was a bit inspired and pulled about 20 together to start working on them as an album. I've definitely expanded on a few of these and have the bones of actual songs from two or three, but they're all still very much in early states. How I expand these tracks, and others, is quite honestly just throwing shit at the wall with them. If a small loop is all I have with no idea of where to take it, I'll just open a new MIDI track in Ableton and start trying out instruments until I hear something that could fit or inspires an idea of where to take the 'song.' Occasionally I'll have more dense starting points, in which case trying to take sounds away is often as important. This is really where I run into the issue of saving multiple instances of the same track, but I've gotten better about that lately.

 

I've never found any sure fire way of turning a jam into a true song...just throw shit at the wall, sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. I mean, look at any accomplished musician: they often have demo versions, alternate takes, different mixes, etc., and that's generally what it is to my ears. They're trying out shit and seeing what sticks.

 

Honestly, you might get some good advice from people like Squee who produce music for a living: they're (I'd guess) more in tune with hearing what's missing/needed in some music. But that's also a more concrete goal: 30 seconds, upbeat, light and airy feeling, or whatever. That's one reason I often don't work too heavily on any started bit of jam until I know what it's for, where it fits in context of other tunes or in an EP or album or whatever. I of course will work intently on something if I'm inspired, but in general I don't waste too much time on any one thing anymore unless I have that goal or I'm just seriously feeling that song and where it's going.

[xox]

 

I feel like the thing I struggle the most when making a track is the arrangement. I always either get stuck in a 4 bar loop or a simple 1 minute track and have no idea where to go next.

 

 

what matters in life matters in music. so, in global, try going towards love or orgasm (as an accepted transitional moment of death) or promise of reunion. you can mourn too... when you think/feel in these terms the arrangement comes by itself

[Diabrotikos]

Analyze your favorite songs : get the mp3, import it in your DAW, set the BPM, and write down everything you hear, you'll end up with something like this :

 

[Kidrodi]

Honestly, I leave a lot of shit in that state. Like plenty of other electronic musicians, I've got dozens if not hundreds of incomplete bits that I thought might become a track some day. I'll occasionally dig back through them and find something that inspires me to add on or whatever...but that's not usually the case tbh. Just recently while digging back through last year's false starts I was a bit inspired and pulled about 20 together to start working on them as an album. I've definitely expanded on a few of these and have the bones of actual songs from two or three, but they're all still very much in early states. How I expand these tracks, and others, is quite honestly just throwing shit at the wall with them. If a small loop is all I have with no idea of where to take it, I'll just open a new MIDI track in Ableton and start trying out instruments until I hear something that could fit or inspires an idea of where to take the 'song.' Occasionally I'll have more dense starting points, in which case trying to take sounds away is often as important. This is really where I run into the issue of saving multiple instances of the same track, but I've gotten better about that lately.

 

I've never found any sure fire way of turning a jam into a true song...just throw shit at the wall, sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. I mean, look at any accomplished musician: they often have demo versions, alternate takes, different mixes, etc., and that's generally what it is to my ears. They're trying out shit and seeing what sticks.

 

Honestly, you might get some good advice from people like Squee who produce music for a living: they're (I'd guess) more in tune with hearing what's missing/needed in some music. But that's also a more concrete goal: 30 seconds, upbeat, light and airy feeling, or whatever. That's one reason I often don't work too heavily on any started bit of jam until I know what it's for, where it fits in context of other tunes or in an EP or album or whatever. I of course will work intently on something if I'm inspired, but in general I don't waste too much time on any one thing anymore unless I have that goal or I'm just seriously feeling that song and where it's going.

 

I should start keeping the incomplete bits as well actually. I've always gotten rid of everything I didn't come back to after like 3 days for whatever reason, maybe to save space?

 

To me though, throwing some kind of loop together with a few sounds is easy, it's the arranging part that I struggle with. What comes in, fades out, at what points etc. Something as simple as knowing how to start the track already throws me off. Ugghh...

 

 

I feel like the thing I struggle the most when making a track is the arrangement. I always either get stuck in a 4 bar loop or a simple 1 minute track and have no idea where to go next.

 

 

what matters in life matters in music. so, in global, try going towards love or orgasm (as an accepted transitional moment of death) or promise of reunion. you can mourn too... when you think/feel in these terms the arrangement comes by itself

 

 

I feel you

[modey]

It's a difficult one, for sure.. especially since there are really no rules to follow unless you're aiming for something traditional like a straightforward pop song or EDM banger.

 

I've found that Eno's Oblique Strategies cards have helped, even by suggesting something so ridiculous that it's inspired me to do something else entirely. Some of my suggestions though:

- Start big and collapse down; deconstruct and rebuild with a different idea/chord/bassline etc

- Never repeat a bar/pattern without at least a small amount of variation. I like copying the previous pattern, pasting, changing one thing, copying that pattern, pasting again to change another thing etc.. ties in well with the first point

- Don't be afraid of sudden changes. I think something like this was in Oblique Strategies but it's a good one. Build up your first section, sudden jump cut to a completely different key, or tempo, or instrumentation.. and then figure out how to get back to the first section. Or not! I do this all the fkn time with my prog tracks, most of them are made up of a few completely different ideas that I've tried to smash together, sometimes it doesn't work but when it does, it's a good one!

- Saying all this, don't be afraid of repetition/minimalism. I've found this works best with sparse arrangements, but could work with the right chord progression (cf. a lot of Lorenzo Senni's music)

[flacid]

Play around with other sounds, rhythms or melodies that you like that are similar to your loop (or not...)

Jam with these alternative parts, work out how they can fit together, the alternative variations, like a puzzle. 

Choose how you think it should progress and write down or remember what pieces go with others and how they move over time.

I find live recordings are fun and the best way to get all of these ideas across.

 

I found once you get a process (of sorts) together then the music just flows out.  

[Auditor]

The drawbacks of only using a daw( dawbacks?) to make music is relatively new to me. I come from using 4/8-track hardware. The first decent daw I got was Reaper (other than CoolEdit Pro, which was and still is great), and I never had a problem finishing tracks because I used it in the exact same way I used the 8track. Simply as a multitrack recorder. 

 

Now I am using Ableton, and have started to suffer from some of that loop-itis. I have noticed, and this has always been the case, that if I start with a melody (instead of drums/bass) then I generally have a better chance of completing a full arrangement. This is one reason why I have never gone completely software. Got to have a synth/guitar/flute/anything-that-makes-noise around that I can just pick up or turn on and start getting inspired. 

 

Also, what modey's point about starting big and then breaking it down is generally a great way to expand a song. Most of my tunes start with the meat of the track - like the biggest, loudest, most emotional point with a whole bunch of sounds going on at once - and then I just deconstruct that and build back up to it. 

[Qalab Wighek]

 

I feel like the thing I struggle the most when making a track is the arrangement. I always either get stuck in a 4 bar loop or a simple 1 minute track and have no idea where to go next.

I guess this is the downside of working solely in a linear DAW like environment as opposed to the intuitiveness of jamming with some gear.

 

How do you guys go about arranging/editing your tracks into something cohesive? Got any advice?

 

You have to give up relying on parameters and quantization.

 

If you're goal is to make a really really cool track, that will require you to create something special that is out of your depth, or out of the depth of the tools you're used to.

 

You're right though, I could make music live, and it would probably make my life a lot easier, but I just don't have all the money in the world for that.

[pcock]

tertiary, or A - B - A(alt), is an unfailingly decent way to make an electronic track. dont rely on repetition to much unless you are absolutely sure your parts are so fantastic they dont become boring to the ear. 

[modey]

^ yeah this, I think sums up my entire post lol

[auxien]

 

Honestly, I leave a lot of shit in that state. Like plenty of other electronic musicians, I've got dozens if not hundreds of incomplete bits that I thought might become a track some day. I'll occasionally dig back through them and find something that inspires me to add on or whatever...but that's not usually the case tbh. Just recently while digging back through last year's false starts I was a bit inspired and pulled about 20 together to start working on them as an album. I've definitely expanded on a few of these and have the bones of actual songs from two or three, but they're all still very much in early states. How I expand these tracks, and others, is quite honestly just throwing shit at the wall with them. If a small loop is all I have with no idea of where to take it, I'll just open a new MIDI track in Ableton and start trying out instruments until I hear something that could fit or inspires an idea of where to take the 'song.' Occasionally I'll have more dense starting points, in which case trying to take sounds away is often as important. This is really where I run into the issue of saving multiple instances of the same track, but I've gotten better about that lately.

 

I've never found any sure fire way of turning a jam into a true song...just throw shit at the wall, sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. I mean, look at any accomplished musician: they often have demo versions, alternate takes, different mixes, etc., and that's generally what it is to my ears. They're trying out shit and seeing what sticks.

 

Honestly, you might get some good advice from people like Squee who produce music for a living: they're (I'd guess) more in tune with hearing what's missing/needed in some music. But that's also a more concrete goal: 30 seconds, upbeat, light and airy feeling, or whatever. That's one reason I often don't work too heavily on any started bit of jam until I know what it's for, where it fits in context of other tunes or in an EP or album or whatever. I of course will work intently on something if I'm inspired, but in general I don't waste too much time on any one thing anymore unless I have that goal or I'm just seriously feeling that song and where it's going.

 

I should start keeping the incomplete bits as well actually. I've always gotten rid of everything I didn't come back to after like 3 days for whatever reason, maybe to save space?

 

To me though, throwing some kind of loop together with a few sounds is easy, it's the arranging part that I struggle with. What comes in, fades out, at what points etc. Something as simple as knowing how to start the track already throws me off. Ugghh...

If you're working in software/DAW, you've got no reason to not be saving everything. Unless having all that clutter messes with your head, save it somewhere. If you go back to it months later or something and you hate it then, sure, delete it, who cares. But I've found some interesting things stashed away on my hard drive that I honestly forgot ever writing, so I'm very glad I save it all.

 

I see what you're saying with the arrangement, I thought you meant more of 'components of instrumentation' than 'song structure' so that's a bit different. What type of music you're going for is sort of important, as much as I might hate the idea of people sticking to genre habits, they're sometimes important to acknowledge at least, if not follow. As messian pointed out up there, a lot of electronic stuff can follow that sort of pattern and might be a good starting point. This is, to me, a place where you can sort of plagiarize from others and tweak it to make it work. Especially if you're going for a certain genre, just using a song with good flow as a basis for how to try to structure your song can be a good starting point. Also, just demoing out different structures can be a great idea if you've got the instruments and feel, just demo a few different structures and revisit them a few times, see which has the best feel. Maybe check out some demo/final/remixes of the same track from artists you're into even if it's not the same genre, and study what changed from one to the other. 

 

But songwriting in general is one of those things that can't be truly taught, it just flows naturally from writing and recording...that said, I've known some great musicians who can't structure a song to save their lives, so perhaps getting some outside help could be a good resource.

[thawkins]

I usually "write" songs by jamming on a loop or two in Ableton, and later I work with the raw material to cut out mistakes and parts that repeat too much. I guess the later part counts as arrangement. What I do there is usually I start listening to my original jam and try to capture the feeling I had when I recorded it. So sometimes when I feel that the intro is going too slow, I bring forward (in time) the other instruments (drums, for example) so they start playing earlier. Sometimes when I feel that things are starting up too fast, I add a couple of measures time so that the elements of the song have each some time to "introduce" themselves and won't suddenly surprise the listener. Usually I trust my past self so I try to keep to the original jam (including fade-ins, filter cutoff changes etc.) unless it sounds out of place.

Ideally I'd like to do this process like I would play it live (in my wildest wet dreams). So basically the process of recording/arranging the bulk of the song would be done live, and all that remains is just to clean up small mistakes and some mixing. The GAS in my head likes to think that if I only had more control surfaces and knobby gear, I could do this more seamlessly, but my rational side tells me I just need to practice more.

[BCM]

quiet bit loud bit quiet bit loud bit.

[ignatius]

break it into parts.. find little loops with in loops.. focus on those.. edit.. rearrange.. stretch out small sections.. make it morph from one thing into another.. then you'll have that 1 minute section in the middle or the end or wherever.. doesn't matter.. just grab chunks you like.. copy paste.. make variations.. rinse.. repeat.. 

 

work on a few "dead end" things at once..  take two of them and stick them together.. 

 

if it's total shit then move on... 

 

maybe you've said what you needed to stay in 2 minutes? why make it longer... maybe you need it to repeat for 6 minutes for it to make sense.. fine.. do that.  

 

i used to lay on the floor while a chink of a song looped... the change in listening position would bring out other frequencies in different parts which would present different ideas... or the delays would sound different or whatever... then i'd hear something to add/change/remove... 

 

also, if you take a song you like.. by anyone.. doesn't matter who... take your half finished thing and figure out a way to make it mix into that other song... 

 

sometimes i'll make a bunch of patterns w/same sounds at same tempo.. ignoring whatever i did in the previous pattern.. then record them all and figure out something to do w/them.. layer them.. connect then.. whatever.. 

 

maybe this is all bad advice though since i'm shit at music. 

[Braintree]

quiet bit loud bit quiet bit loud bit.

 

^ That ^

[fxbip]

Gonna share my method with you guys.It works like a charm for me anyway.

My working method for these matters and one that has been very effective for me,for many many tracks is this:

I make a temporary loop to have a beat to work on and make all the synths first.

First make your loop,your section,with ALL the synths in the section.ALL OF THEM.Mute the synths when they clash if you have to but make them all DONT GO INTO ARRANGING MODE until its finished and done or you ll get all messed up and chaotic,dont go into composing other section till its finished and all the elements for this section are there.

Then when its done make another loop with the same method.

Make as many loop as wanted.

And then copy the loops in arrangement phase,into the desired order for the desired length.

And then cut the clips/items so the arrangement will work.

In the end adding a few one shot and ambience synth lines can spice things up a bit.

Then i do the finals drums.

This method has worked perfectly for me.

The thing is to not get spoiled into working on many sections at once.It will make thing too complicated.And the vibes will be all over the place.

Focus on each section separately.Make them good and sharp one after the other.

[user]

What's helped me in the past (using ableton) is getting out of the loop window into arrange mode as soon as possible, just throw those loops in there and make a few interesting transitions and the rest will start to flow. Same thing worked for me in Logic, get out of looping the same regions over and over and just start building the track, use techno paradigm if necessary and make it more interesting as the ideas start to flow.

With techno paradigm I mean start with a really basic beat, add some percussive elements/hihats after a couple of bars, add bassline, create drop, add melody etc., use whitenoise washes, huge reverbs etc to introduce/remove elements and see where this takes you.

I really like using 3/4 loops and adding things on something else than the 1st count of a bar as well. 

 

Seems really basic but these rules help me to build something from which I can experiment and get further ideas.

 

Also assigning a couple of parameters to a midi controller and doing a live take while twisting knobs and dropping in/out elements and recording this works quite well, you can always edit what you've recorded. 

[Kidrodi]

 

maybe you've said what you needed to stay in 2 minutes? why make it longer... maybe you need it to repeat for 6 minutes for it to make sense.. fine.. do that.  

 

Good point. I often find myself trying to stretch things out just so it's "the average song length".

 

What's helped me in the past (using ableton) is getting out of the loop window into arrange mode as soon as possible

 

This! Too many times I get stuck in the session view with a few clips and end up giving up on any type of structure. If I start out in the arrangement view it forces you to have the arrangement in mind right away.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the tips, guys. Will definitely be trying out all this stuff.

[acid1]

I have so many thoughts on this but after doing 10 RPM's where I have to force myself to finish songs in about 2 days I've found my own personal cheat code.

 

Conversation.

 

If I make a pattern/loop that I like, my next pattern will be a response pattern. The pattern that follows will be a response to the previous one and so forth. Once I feel like everything is having an interesting debate I record it. If I can get at least 2 patterns talking to eachother I'll record it.

 

The Elektrons have 16 patterns per bank, so I aim for 4 main patterns(on 1,5,9,13), and variations of each for the rest. Works for me.

[ignatius]

I have so many thoughts on this but after doing 10 RPM's where I have to force myself to finish songs in about 2 days I've found my own personal cheat code.

 

Conversation.

 

If I make a pattern/loop that I like, my next pattern will be a response pattern. The pattern that follows will be a response to the previous one and so forth. Once I feel like everything is having an interesting debate I record it. If I can get at least 2 patterns talking to eachother I'll record it.

 

The Elektrons have 16 patterns per bank, so I aim for 4 main patterns(on 1,5,9,13), and variations of each for the rest. Works for me.

 

 

^this.  good way to explain it.  i often do something similar especially when deal w/handfuls of patterns... 

[sheatheman]

Just write progressive music. Come up with a good lead and drop it in. A good trick is to slowly build several different elements, then drop them all out and introduce the lead while the track is quieter. Then bring everything back.

 

Then all your song sounds will sound the same and that's good.

 

There's a lot of good advice in this thread. I don't think there's any way to do it without trying for years and years and making hard decisions and being ruthless about deleting stuff.

[flacid]

 I don't think there's any way to do it without trying for years and years and making hard decisions and being ruthless about deleting stuff.

 

Yep. Practice, practice, practice. 

 

Also Shea, did I see one of your tracks being shared by Dj Seinfeld on Soundcloud? Nice one 

[Auditor]

I'll also add that it is generally a good idea (for me at least) to limit the amount of projects I have goign on at once. If I am working on 3 at the same time, I'll make sure I either finish one or scrap one before starting a new one. Just yesterday I finished a track that I really didn't want to go back to because it seemed like it wasn't working, but I knew there was a seed of something good in there. Not only did I force myself to finish it, I was pleasantly surprised by the results.

[sine nomine]

I just want to say what a great topic, and so many of you have shared such great tips and ideas, just what to say thanks, and like many of you. As of recently I like to fill my pallet with as many shades of sound as possible though not going too crazy, and I like to divide my sounds in threes (low sounds, mid sounds, high sounds) in respect of frequency. And I'll have a simple beat for metronome, also I'm sticking to one instrument (zebra) and doing the compositions by midi, doing 8 bar compositions to then move forward with the arrangement, where things can start taking shape from there. Sorry if all this sounds vague as.