Can you help me understand Korg DS-10/MS-10 synth sound design?

[Polytrix]

Hey.

 

So I've been playing around with the Korg DS-10 Synthesizer (a Korg DS game cartridge which seems to be a simplified MS-10 emulation). It's pretty good!

 

Anyway, I've got it going into my interface and I intend to design some synth sounds which I'll re-sample and use in more flexible ways in Ableton. I.e polyphonic and using midi controllers. I can get some pretty decent tones from it and the sound is nice and crusty and lofi.

 

I'm relatively new to synthesis really but understand the basics.

 

Either way though I have a few questions about the images below:

 

1) On the synth edit window, so the second image here, how would you explain what EG INT under the pitch section does?

 

Also, how would you explain what EG INT does under the VCF section (this confuses me as I think it's a filter envelope control but there is no way to actually set that envelope independently I think as the only ADSR I can see is on the far right section and I think that's purely for amplitude control ?

 

Additionally, what is the function of using VCO Sync practically in sound design terms?

 

How would you explain to a layperson the difference between EG/GATE on the VCA EG switch thing?

 

 

2)  Can someone try and simply explain all this to me!? 

 

I think it's basically 4 types of LFO waveform controlled by the FREQ knob on the far left which can then be patched to PITCH IN/VCO 1 PITCH IN/VCO2 PITCH IN/CUTOFF IN/VCA IN - with each of those patches flowing in different ways through the VCOs - VCF - VCA - MIXER. I get that much.

 

What are the practical ways of using this though? I've done loads of experimenting and I don't really feel as though I know what I'm doing.

 

What does the EG output do in this sense (where is that coming from?!).

 

The online tutorials are quite limited and I thought you lot would be a lot more well informed.

 

All help massively appreciated!

 

P

[TubularCorporation]

EG Int looks like it modulates the pitch with the envelope without having to patch it.

 

VCO sync is just another way to sculpt your sound, it essentially adds more (and different) harmonics the more detuned your oscillators are from each other, and it's most useful when you start modulating stuff.  Try tuning it on and modulating the pitch of only VCO 2 with an LFO and hear what it sounds like. One example of how I use it is if I'm trying to get a kind of a plucked string type sound, I'll use the same envelope generator that's modulating the VCA (which would have a vary fast attack and initial decay to simulate the actual pluck, followed by a slower decay down to silence to simulate the string ringing) modulate the pitch of one of the synced oscillators, so that there's a lot of extra enharmonic content right at the start of the attack and then it becomes harmonically simpler as the note decays.  Has kind of a clavinet or electric guitar character.

 

This SOS article on synthesizing pianos has a lot of good practical information about oscilator sync.

 

Just in general, the Synth Secrets series (which unfortunately hasn't all made it on to their new site yet but is all still available on archive.org) is a really good resource for this stuff, as are the (hilariously) old New York School of Synthesis videos. Those videos start out really basic, though.

[sweepstakes]

The EG/Gate thing is a switch between a contoured envelope and a solid pulse for the gate signal. So when a note is triggered, EG will make you a nice naturalistic volume envelope, depending on your ADSR settings, and GATE will just be full on (like an organ) as long as the note is held.

 

If I recall correctly, sync is the only way to create PWM in DS10 (and I'd assume the MS10). What you do is set VCO2 to square and set its pitch a little lower than VCO1 and patch something (like LFO) into its pitch. Then slowly turn it up. If you turn it up too much you'll get that "shiny" sync effect as a second cycle of VCO2 starts to creep in and the PWM effect will be off, although that might be cool.

 

The SOS series RSP linked is excellent. But I recommend you just fart around and wiggle knobs and see what they do, it's often a lot more fun to learn that way.

[TubularCorporation]

The SOS series RSP linked is excellent. But I recommend you just fart around and wiggle knobs and see what they do, it's often a lot more fun to learn that way.

 

I second this, I think the best way to learn this stuff is usually to just mess with it and then go back and learn why it did what it did afterward.  If you dive in to theoretical stuff first you don't have any context for it and it's harder to actually make sense of and remember than if you already have hands on experience.  

 

That's why I never got any good at programming or calculus.

[Polytrix]

Thank you very much. I'll study these responses in more detail when I dig into it more tomorrow. 

 

I'm willing to share my creations too if people fancy them. I can sample C notes in different octaves and record them in. I'm amping up the signal in different ways too to add character.

 

I'd still really appreciate any extra insight anyone fancies sharing.

 

Cheers for your time.

[sweepstakes]

That's why I never got any good at programming or calculus.

I actually think this approach to synths helped me understand or visualize code better. At least with a synth there isn't really programmatic correctness to worry about, beyond patches that are unlistenable or just silent. But after a while you naturally and organically develop a mental model of the voice architecture, which is a system just as a software environment is, albeit a much simpler one. You just "play synth" instead of "playing computer".

[Guest Chesney]

EG just means envelope generator and if you remember that a synths oscillator is constantly running (always sounding)  and the envelope is just a gate you open to let the sound be heard. So the gate switch is just whether you open it fully so it's always on or whether you trigger the gate with a key. The adsr is just the time intervals of how you you can open that gate with a key press. If you keep thinking of subtractie synthesis like that it's easy to have a mental image of what each block of synthesis does exactly.

Sync means that the pitch of osc 1 and 2 are locked so you can get really tight tuned sounds. But if you tweak the pitch of osc 2 it is constantly trying to get back to sync but gives you a PWM style phase, a very distinctive sound.

The Int EG is just the envelope generator control for each block of synthesis. So not only can the ADSR be used for the actual gate letting the sound through but those modelling intervals can be used on the pitch (imagine for a sound that started at one pitch using the attack then reached it's note pitch and stayed constant while the key is pressed then when released the pitch went off again, very useful) and used on the filter in the same way (slow attack to open the filter to let the sound pass through etc etc)

The last bit is as you say LFO's. Basically if you want you pitch/filter/anything modulatable to constantly change using different waves.

 

Everyone else has explained above too, I just hope you take away a visual idea from mine. Remember like water, the synths oscillators are always running, the synth parts are all just different ways to manipulate the tap.

[modey]

If I recall correctly, sync is the only way to create PWM in DS10 (and I'd assume the MS10). What you do is set VCO2 to square and set its pitch a little lower than VCO1 and patch something (like LFO) into its pitch. Then slowly turn it up. If you turn it up too much you'll get that "shiny" sync effect as a second cycle of VCO2 starts to creep in and the PWM effect will be off, although that might be cool.

MS10 definitely can do PWM! It also doesn't have osc sync.

[Polytrix]

Thank you very much.

 

Yes, all of this makes sense to me so far. I do understand the basic principles of subtractive synthesis....I think.

 

Thanks for the PWM tips, I'll be doing that now also. I wondered how that was done.

 

I think it confuses me that you can use one ADSR envelope shape to influence pitch/amplitude/filter. Without setting them independently, I find it hard to understand how one envelope can be used functionally in this way, or at-least I find it tricky to understand how the time elements of an ADSR curve can influence other things other than amplitude.

 

I've done lots of noodling with the patch bay LFO connections with mixed results. I suppose I would also like tips of how people use LFOs as modulation sources in the confines of what can be connected together in the patch bay here. 

 

[sweepstakes]

I think it confuses me that you can use one ADSR envelope shape to influence pitch/amplitude/filter. Without setting them independently, I find it hard to understand how one envelope can be used functionally in this way, or at-least I find it tricky to understand how the time elements of an ADSR curve can influence other things other than amplitude.

 

I've done lots of noodling with the patch bay LFO connections with mixed results. I suppose I would also like tips of how people use LFOs as modulation sources in the confines of what can be connected together in the patch bay here.

I think of envelopes and LFOs as basically the same thing except that envelopes give you a little more control and they're one-shot while LFOs are a simple repeating waveshape. Also LFOs can go into the negative range.

 

One of my favorite uses of the LFO in DS10 was to set VCO 2 to triangle and turn on sync, and then plug the LFO into VCO 2. Can make some pretty nice pads that work well in DS10's lo-fi sound.

[Polytrix]

Thank you very much! Great responses as ever. I'll have a play today.