Arturia Keystep Sequencer - Ableton workaround?

[Polytrix]

Hi Everyone. Hope you are all enjoying vacation etc. I hope this isn't a dumb question.

 

https://youtu.be/ElcD2rGi8Tg

 

The way the sequencer is working there seems brilliant but I can't afford to buy a device with a sequencer and I'm sure there is a way of doing the same thing nicely in Ableton software.

 

I've got midi keyboards but would have to do multitrack recording on Ableton then loop things to create sequences I think, which obviously takes quite a lot of clicking and messing.

 

Max4live device?

 

 

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[auxien]

I've never looked at the Keystep in depth, I knew it had some interesting quirks but didn't realize how many until that video. It's seems much more unique than I knew...I will say a lot of those key combos could be a bit difficult to get used to, but no matter it's definitely piqued my curiosity.

 

That said, the short answer to your question is no. But I'm going to examine why because I'm hopped up on too much caffeine and listening to music...

 

For one, much of the brilliance of what he's doing in the video is the tactile buttons and keys and so on. Unless you've got a dedicated hardware controller with which you could map similar things to in Ableton (or a complex software solution for mapping key combos on your normal computer keyboard), you're simply not going to have quite as quick or 'easy' of an experience. That's probably obvious but I still wanted to state it just in case you/whoever doesn't realize just how important that is in a situation like this. 'Hardware that does exactly what you want when you want it to is simply not going to be reproducible with software only' is the basic truth here. If you like what you can do with the Keystep, how it's being done (speed, ease, interactivity, etc.) you should probably buy it. A software substitute simply won't be the same (though of course it could be more interesting in other ways!).

 

That said, you can definitely do much of anything you're seeing there in Ableton. First thing that comes to mind is the M4L Mono Sequencer device and K-Devices MOOR. Obviously they're monophonic, but can quickly sequence at varying lengths... I only mention these specific ones to point out that any sequencer/s you use will be hobbled in some important ways in comparison to an external sequencer like the Keystep. I'm quite certain you could find a M4L device that does each of the things the Keystep can do (probably even with polyphonics), but there's no one software sequencer that's going to do it quite the same even in a software form. I remember one VST sequencer being mentioned in some EKT thread earlier this year that might tick a lot of the boxes displayed in the Keystep video but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called...hopefully someone else will chime in with it. Until then, do some digging and report back with anything interesting: http://maxforlive.com/library/index.php?by=any&q=sequencer

 

Another note: much of the brilliance of the Keystep shown can easily be done with stock Ableton and a Push (or a properly configured MIDI device) but it's not going to be quite the same...however, a Push or alternative MIDI device + a few choice M4L devices could scratch that itch and get you close, but even then it's going to depend on your choices of how to build, and what you're willing to sacrifice...obviously, I know, but yeah. That's going to take some trial and error and so forth...plus:

 

If you've got MIDI keyboards, maybe you could sell and use the money to purchase a Keystep? Could be worth it if it's that inspiring to you! Or configure one as a MIDI control 'only' for Ableton, and then map it do the things you're wanting. You don't seem interested in that "would have to do multitrack recording on Ableton then loop things to create sequences I think, which obviously takes quite a lot of clicking and messing." ...and that's what almost any other solution is going to require. You can do it, but it'll take money or time...unless someone's got the perfect free M4L device I've not yet seen (please I hope so!).

[Polytrix]

Thank you for a great reply!

 

I need to read this again but I get your gist overall. 

 

Just love how he's building up melodies there with very little fuss. Plus a keystep is about £105 so I think for the sequencer that's really quite reasonable. 

[thawkins]

I read this thread a couple of days ago (watched the video as well) and it keeps going on in my head because it seems exactly the sort of thing that could be interesting to build in Pure Data, hook it up to Live and play with it to try and see where it goes. If you build the PD thing in such a way that it can be completely controlled over MIDI (i.e. no mousing), then you can just jam to your hearts content and let Live record all the MIDI that you can then later tweak. With ClyphX MIDI macro racks you can store all the "commands" you send to the sequencer as automation.

I don't know however how difficult it would be to build a thing though. It seems the basic "enter all steps and play" along with add/subtract steps is pretty easy to do once you figure out the basic logic of how the looping should work.

[Polytrix]

Yeah I've no idea how to make a sequencer like that. Sadly well beyond me, I'm seriously considering buying one personally just to use with Ableton. It kind of matches the way I make melodies well.

 

 

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[thawkins]

So thanks to flu I got to spend a couple days at home, and I thought I would give building the thing in Pure Data a shot because it seemed like it will fit in really well with my Livid Code. It's probably not as good as Arturia's implementation, but here's a list of features:

• 4* simultaneous sequences, max 32 steps, 8 notes polyphony; 1 velocity and gate** parameter per step
• step-based recording
• note/velocity substitution while playing, append and pop (clear last) also works
• button for adding rests (no tie or legato)
• button that restarts playing sequence from step 0
• if not recording, you can transpose the selected sequence up and down (calculated by subtracting 64 from the note you play, top half of the piano will transpose up, bottom half will transpose down)

* - I settled on 4 because of the Code control surface - sky's the real limit

** - did not have time to properly figure this out - basically you have the gate time (milliseconds 250 - 10k) and gate scale (1 to 100) and the gate value (0-127) of each step determines how long in milliseconds the note will play based on the following formula: time = gate time X ((gate value / 127) * gate scale)

 

Edit: whoops found a stupid bug, fixed now.

[cruising for burgers]

the arpeggiator functions are easily achieved with reason's arpeggiator if i understood correctly what he was doing...

and yeah overlaying is also pretty straightforward, record something first, set the markers for a loop, go back, hit record again and keep adding overlayed notes... don't hit record if you just want to experiment... like he says, layer by layer overwriting things... when he's clearing steps it's the same as moving your loop marker back... when he uses the append mode you just need to move the marker again forward and insert whatever you want there... delete and add is also pretty straightforward in any daw's sequencer... thing is, this thingie is quantizing the notes/chords he plays, but that's also pretty simple to do in a daw's sequencer, just hit quantize and choose the step grid for said quantize... for the chord mode you can achieve something similar if you have a multioscilattor synth, just choose which key you want in each oscillator... then just press the notes you want and you'll have chords instead of single notes...

 

honestly i didn't get very excited by what i saw, maybe i'm missing something, i don't use hardware though, i only use my korg-ds8 sometimes as a midi keyboard into reaper or reason... and last time i used it like that yeah i did some things really similar to this video demo, i kept recording on loop overlaying notes with quantize on... sorry if i didn't understand correctly and i'm sounding like a smartass by telling you it is all pretty simple to do in software...

[cruising for burgers]

in reason and i believe in most daws you can also double the tempo of your midi selection or half it or triple it or whatever you wanna do with it... he keeps stressing the fact that you can record and keep overlaying things on top, i fail to see where's the eureka factor of such function  , as i said before you can do it pretty easily in most daws recording within a loop...

[cruising for burgers]

which obviously takes quite a lot of clicking and messing.

no it doesn't...

[Polytrix]

Cool to see this thread being revived. Nice one!

 

Yeah I realise you can probably achieve this in a DAW it just looks to be a really smart and accessible interface on the hardware itself that was appealing to me.

 

I can probably just set up arps in Ableton and just map loop controls to midi controllers to achieve the same thing. I'm just lazy and like stuff that I can slam and know what it does with no messing. I'd probably love an Ableton Push.

 

 thawkins - 

 

Can I ask if your pure data thing is easy to use? Like have you made a gui like a vst thing? Well done though, I would have no idea how to do what you've achieved there. Can I simply download and treat it like a VST plug in Ableton?

[cruising for burgers]

Can I ask if your pure data thing is easy to use? Like have you made a gui like a vst thing? Well done though, I would have no idea how to do what you've achieved there. Can I simply download and treat it like a VST plug in Ableton?

i've downloaded it and it's a pd file, so, i believe you can only open it with pd? might be mistaken though, but i don't believe it's a vst...

[Polytrix]

Cool ok. Cheers dude

 

 

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[thawkins]

Cool to see this thread being revived. Nice one!

 

Yeah I realise you can probably achieve this in a DAW it just looks to be a really smart and accessible interface on the hardware itself that was appealing to me.

 

I can probably just set up arps in Ableton and just map loop controls to midi controllers to achieve the same thing. I'm just lazy and like stuff that I can slam and know what it does with no messing. I'd probably love an Ableton Push.

 

 thawkins - 

 

Can I ask if your pure data thing is easy to use? Like have you made a gui like a vst thing? Well done though, I would have no idea how to do what you've achieved there. Can I simply download and treat it like a VST plug in Ableton?

 

It's not usable like a VST unfortunately, you have to have the patch open in PD for it to work. I'll have to see if it's somehow possible to have it as a VST though. I have made a minimal GUI and set it up so it responds to MIDI from my Code. Also I did not have time to add a sync input to the patch, so currently it can't receive clock from Ableton.

 

If I have time after work today I will look into fixing these things and also will try to write a short guide on how to set up.

[Polytrix]

Nice

 

 

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[thawkins]

Ok so to see if I could convert this PD patch into a honest VST I decided to check out if the Camomile project had updated and I HAVE SEEN MAGIC WITH MY EYES. Dogs and cats living together, mass confusion!

 

I downloaded the example, followed the instructions - which is basically to copy a couple of files, edit a text file - and I could load one of the example Camomile instruments into Live as a VST!

 

I haven't checked if MIDI out works, but someone seems to have got it working so I have my fingers crossed here as well.

 

It's not going to be ideal like Live's own MIDI effects though, meaning that you can't just stick it inside a chain of MIDI effects or place a instrument behind it - instead you probably have to make a dedicated track for each sequencer and then "pull" the MIDI by setting another track's input to the sequencer VST. I think to do that the best way right now is M4L, but then forget about trying to use it in another DAW. Whereas the VST should work even better in DAWs that aren't dumb as hell and can deal better with having VSTs that output both audio and MIDI (or just the latter).

 

Anyways I am dead tired today but I will try and test this thing when I have time.

[sweepstakes]

Ok so to see if I could convert this PD patch into a honest VST I decided to check out if the Camomile project had updated and I HAVE SEEN MAGIC WITH MY EYES. Dogs and cats living together, mass confusion!

 

I downloaded the example, followed the instructions - which is basically to copy a couple of files, edit a text file - and I could load one of the example Camomile instruments into Live as a VST!

 

I haven't checked if MIDI out works, but someone seems to have got it working so I have my fingers crossed here as well.

 

It's not going to be ideal like Live's own MIDI effects though, meaning that you can't just stick it inside a chain of MIDI effects or place a instrument behind it - instead you probably have to make a dedicated track for each sequencer and then "pull" the MIDI by setting another track's input to the sequencer VST. I think to do that the best way right now is M4L, but then forget about trying to use it in another DAW. Whereas the VST should work even better in DAWs that aren't dumb as hell and can deal better with having VSTs that output both audio and MIDI (or just the latter).

 

Anyways I am dead tired today but I will try and test this thing when I have time.

Wow, that's cool as heck. I've largely gotten away from sequencing in DAWs but this might be fun with Renoise.

[thawkins]

Good news is that my quick test modifying one of the Camomile examples to output MIDI into Live worked nicely. I got both notes and CC out and managed to record it to another Live track, so it seems that the most important hurdle is passed.

 

Bad news is that doing this I somehow managed to glitch out the IAC driver - probably because I managed to set off a MIDI feedback loop somehow.

[cruising for burgers]

you're THE BOSS thawkins!!! 

 

 

[thawkins]

I figured I would try to mess around today as it seemed like a nice thing to make a quick weekly beats on. It's almost working too.

There's a couple of quirks - because the Camomile thing does not have real time MIDI in, this means no clock, so I had to sync by sending a note from another Live track. That's fairly easy to set up though and it provides a great way to experiment with custom triggering (i.e. sidechain something or tap manually).

I also hardcoded MIDI notes 1-7 (8th is the "clock note") to act as controls. So 1 toggles play/pause, 2 toggles record, 3 appends the next played note, 4 clears last, 5 acts as a rest note when you overdub/append, 6 sends the sequencer to step 1 and 7 toggles step velocities and gate times in the view.

I think the basic functioality works, but it's not ready yet because there's something messed up with the controls. It's some kind of weird song and dance to get the UI working well between PD, Camomile and Live.

 

Anyway, here is a teaser screenshot. :)

[Polytrix]

Nicely done! Keep bumping this as you progress. Thanks for your time and efforts :)

[thawkins]

Nicely done! Keep bumping this as you progress. Thanks for your time and efforts :)

 

No worries, it's really fun to develop this and I have wanted a step sequencer for some time now. :)

[thawkins]

I put the code up on Github now: https://github.com/djlehm/pd-sequencer

 

No updates as of yet, my laptop's probably going in for repairs today too so not sure when I can work on it again.

[cruising for burgers]

I put the code up on Github now: https://github.com/djlehm/pd-sequencer

 

No updates as of yet, my laptop's probably going in for repairs today too so not sure when I can work on it again.

pardon my ignorance man but i don't see a *.dll anywhere, how can i use this as a vst? anyway thanks for the time and effort you've put into this! :thumbsup:

[Polytrix]

Yeah looking forward to this dude. An idiot proof vst would be cool..just generally using watmm made plugins is generally nice too. Peace

 

 

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[thawkins]

 

I put the code up on Github now: https://github.com/djlehm/pd-sequencer

 

No updates as of yet, my laptop's probably going in for repairs today too so not sure when I can work on it again.

pardon my ignorance man but i don't see a *.dll anywhere, how can i use this as a vst? anyway thanks for the time and effort you've put into this! :thumbsup:

 

 

Ah shit sorry I am developing on a Mac, VSTs here are just .vst. 

 

I don't have a Windows computer on hand for testing, but basically from what I understand you need to get the Camomile meta-plugin files (select your OS), then follow instructions from here: https://github.com/pierreguillot/Camomile/wiki/How-to-generate-plugins

 

So it seems you have to:

1. make a PdSequencer folder

2. copy all the .pd and .txt files from this folder (https://github.com/djlehm/pd-sequencer/tree/master/PdSequencer.vst/Contents/Resources) to the PdSequencer folder

3. from the Camomile files, copy CamomileFx.dll also to the PdSequencer folder and rename it to PdSequencer.dll

 

Then copy the PdSequencer folder to where you keep the VSTs and check if your DAW loads it.

 

Edit: first it's best if you just try the bundled examples that come with the Camomile files. That stuff is already jaw-dropping because you can pretty much edit the PD files and then reload in the DAW and have them change instantly. I just hope I can get some time to look into what's fucky with the sequencer GUI updates right now.