Polytrix Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Bo Hanson Lord of The Rings at half speed is an absolute ambient masterpiece! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Bo Hanson Lord of The Rings at half speed is an absolute ambient masterpiece! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk the hobbit is way better at 24 fps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chesney Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Don't test L/R levels with old music as it's entirely possible that they will have totally different peaks at any time due to the way they will be mixed, i.e. drums on one side, keys and guit other and vocs in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Yeah I think it's just the way it's been recorded. I love being able to quickly change the speed of playback, sampling heaven. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chesney Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 That's one thing i'd love for my Teac but multitrack R2R's didn't usually have that option. I have a consumer level Telefunken R2R I need to fix up at some point though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Nice! Yeah the thing with my Sony r2r is that, I can't change speed live I have to stop in between so I don't think I can do weird live speed fuckery stuff ah well still nice to have the function Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 The way to do weird speed fuckery live is to mess with the reels* with your finger. *specifically the flange, hence flanging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Got ya! Thank you! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 It's not the only way, but it's a good way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 So, I might have missed something, but how can you do "tape delay" sort of thing with a standard reel-to-reel? Anyone have good resources for doing any kjnd if weird effects with just one machine? All Ive been doing with mine is recording & getting tape distortion and fucking with the speed (finger stretching out the tape while playing, or pausing and manually controlling the reel movement) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 It depends on the machine, but any three head reel to reel (and many three head cassette decks - I did it semi-successfully on a three head Maranz portable I have but the belts fell apart years ago so I can't do that again until i get around to fixing it) can be used for echo. instead of an erase head and a single head used for record and playback, three head machines have separate heads for record and play, and will have the option to monitor the input signal or the signal on tape during recording. If you monitor from tape, you'll be recording with the record head and then playing back simultaneously from the play head. The gap between the two means playback will be delayed, and the size of the gap combined with the speed that the tape is running will determine the delay time. so you can patch an aux send on a mixer to the input of a three head machine, set it to monitor from tape, and route the output to another mixer channel and you have echo. The aux send from the return channel to the tape machine is your feedback control. it's basically the same as how a Space Echo works. EDIT: the video I posted earlier inspired me to hook everything up and try some tape flanging before work this morning. I was always under the impression that you had to have two machince and a synchronizer to do it (because that's the way a lot of the most famous instances of it were done) but it turns out the way they do it in the video - dubbing a copy of your mix to tape and then just manually synchronizing the start time of the DAW and the tape - works pretty well. Sometime this weekend I'll try blending the original and the tape dub OTB so I can wire it up the way I've heard you're supposed to - not just with the polarity reversed on one of the signals but also with the grounds shorted together (so balanced the DAW and the tape dub of the DAW would be summed to stereo through a mixer, but the output from each channel of the tape would be inverted and the negative pin of each channel of the DAW would be shorted to the negative pin on the corresponding channel from the tape machine). I don't know exactly why, but supposedly shorting the grounds like that makes the flanging even more pronounced and is part of the classic tape flange sound. Last night was the first I'd ever heard of that, someone mentions it in the comments of one of the handful of tape flanging videos on Youtube. I'm also going to experiment with using the Octatrack to emulate it, and with something I've never heard of anyone doing - dubbing the same mono audio from the DAW to the left channel of a tape, then rewinding and dubbing it again to the right channel in a separate pass (you'd need a tape machine that let you record independently on the left and right channels which the Otari does, not sure if the one we're talking about in this thread does), and messing with the speed of the tape both times, and then summing them to mono with one of the channels inverted. It would be impossible to hear exactly what you were doing but it might sound cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Yeah this confused me as well at first but you can do delay with one machine as long as it has three heads I think. So I've been recording and playing guitar onto tape/sending audio out from my daw whilst monitoring and recording the processed output off the tape. I think that alone naturally creates a delay depending on what speed you've got the tape set at. Does on mine anyway. Additionally, mine has a built in echo effect which is a feedback loop basically. What I don't understand is that mine has a sound on sound effect meaning (I think) I can throw the signal from left to right sort of like a ping pong delay. Rsp is that correct? Other than that, I'm just doing the same as you, manually touching the source reel to do stop/start effects/weird flange stuff and just generally using all warped fucked up tape produces the wow and flutter effects I think which then sort of adds more random character to the delays. How can I make the effect more drastic? I do think you need two machines to do crazy Robert fripp stuff right? I suppose I could send an already affected loop from daw back into tape so kind of increasing the wet nature of the sound? So far I've just been sending it dry audio loops and recording it back in. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Sound on sound might be what you're describing, or it might be two track overturning capabilities or it might be like the way tape echo units do sound on sound, where it's switching off the erase head so that you can record without erasing what was already on the tape, which amounts to overturning on a single track. That last one would be the coolest simply because it's the most different from normal recording, and would be very cool if you get in to tape loops (something I Haven't messed with much myself, other than making my own loops of questionable quality for the space echo, which is also of questionable quality). one of the things I read about flanging today said that Abbey Road modified some tape machines so that they could patch an external tone generator in rather than using the machine's own timing signal, which would give you some insane possibilities as far as manipulating the speed of the tape, and is something to consider if you ever have it professionally serviced. No clue how complicated it would be, but if it was done right you should be able to control the motor speed with any oscillator! It's very cool that your machine has an echo mode built in, I've never heard of that. you basically scored a really, really nice stereo tape echo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 This is the best thing I've ever read about tape flanging: http://www.audiotechnology.com.au/wp/index.php/tape-flanging-in-the-new-world/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Damn. I got stoked after watching a few tutorials & reading stuff here, but I checked when I got home, and my machine (Akai M-9) has a combination record/play head, making echo impossible. Suuuuper disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 i think airwindows guy is a little autistic tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 i think airwindows guy is a little autistic tbh I think he's said as much himself in one or two videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Thanks Rsp. I tried it out yesterday I think more as an insert effect and monitor the purely wet signal output from the tape and the sound on sound definitely had some kind of relationship with the echo and Stereo spread, I was trying to find a definitive explanation of how it works online but failed so far. Just to confirm though I should be setting this up as a send effect right so I can create a feedback control and also generally have more control over the dry/wet nature of processing the source sound? As I don't have a physical mixing desk, I've got a dj mixer without sends, and I'm simply running outputs from my audio interface into the r2r inputs and vice a versa via Ableton, I need to create a return track and route the audio there so I can engage the aux send to do feedback? I'll have a go today, I think there is an Ableton device called external audio effect which sort of neatly does that but I've always failed when trying to use it! It's sounding like a space echo to me, the impact of the old tapes and somewhat dodgy speed maintenance on the take up reel when it starts getting full means there is all sorts of modulation going on. I've ordered a new reel of tape now so that'll be a fairer test. By the way, how will I know I'm getting stereo delays (I think that's ping pong delay right)? Do I need to manually move the 'balance' knob to sort of pan stuff around as it echos? Still unsure about the sound on sound but it definitely seems to bounce one channels input to the other defined by a wet/dry dial thing basically. I think it's intended to be used for overdubbing? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 For echo yeah, set it up as a send effect. Sounds like you're doing it right. I haven't tried doing feedback in a DAW that way but it should work, although the interface latency will get added in to the delay time (shouldn't be a problem). You said your machine has a feedback control built in for doing echo effects though, right? Maybe you can use that for the feedback, and avoid having it pass through your DAC and ADC a bunch of times, it would probably sound better. The advantage of doing it with a mixer (physical or a DAW) is that you have possibilities for inserting effects inside of the feedback loop. I'm still figuring out the best way to do tape flanging. The method in that last like I posted is the best so far but I still have issues with getting the levels matched accurately enough to get a really deep effect, and with the interface latency/latency compensation changing the timing between what I monitor and what's actually getting recorded just enough to make it sound difference when I record than when I play back the recording. I think the next thing I'm going to try is to bounce once pass through the reel to reel as described in the article, but for the second pass send the dry signal to the reel to reel AND the first tape pass out to a mixer, and then sum the first and second tape pass in the mixer and record them both back as a single stereo pair, so all of the actual flanging happens OTB and what I record is exactly what I heard. Plus once I have it worked out, doing the summing OTB will make it possible to try that thing I read about shorting the grounds together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Sounds good to me man. Share some audio when you figure it out. Well it has an 'echo' dial basically which what I've read is basically an internal feedback loop as the ins and outs can be routed together. What I noticed however is that even when this cranked all the way wet it doesn't feedback as madly as you'd want a dub delay to. So yeah, hence wanting more echoes basically! I'll try in the DAW. I'm very intrigued to see what it sounds like. Thanks again for your help. I am noticing sadly that the take up reel deffo struggles when it's almost full to keep playing almost as though it can't take the weight. I'm very reluctant to take it apart and clean/lube it again. Probably just being a perfectionist! I'll just record to small amounts of tape. Out of interest, when you mention making 'tape loops' in this case with one reel to reel, what exactly are you referencing? Are you talking about manipulating the echoes by doing that thing where you extend the amount of time it takes to hit the take up reel by sending the tape round another pivot point external from the unit like this: http://mak.hgwrk.com/assets/images/artists/IND_Duto_Hardono_w.jpg Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 The actual speed the reels turn will change as the ratio of tape on the supply and takeup reels changes, in order to keep the tape moving at a constant speed across the head. One revolution of a full reel is a lot more tape than one revolution of an empty reel (because the circumference gets bigger as the reel gets fuller) so the takeup reel will have to move slower as it fills up in order to maintain constant tape speed across the heads. I bet that's what you're seeing. It's not a great example because it's buried in parallel with other effects, but there's stereo tape flanging on all of the string synth parts in this track I'm working on (most obvious at the very end, in the other parts there's a track in parallel with the flanged one that is running through an old digital delay unit into a Lexicon Vortex, so it might be hard to tell what's Vortex and what's tape flanging if you haven't already heard the tracks isolated): https://www.dropbox.com/s/xtjh3mh7luo6sif/20181214%20CZ101%20Gamelan.mp3?dl=1 I tried few different methods, and also added some very subtle autopan to one of the tape tracks to add some more stereo movement. Once you have some stuff done with your machine that you're OK with sharing, I'd definitely like to hear it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Hmm yeah I think you might be correct there but what I'm experiencing is that the take up reel is sometimes grinding to a total stop or slack tape ends up building up below the take up reel and the whole playback slows down so yeah the mechanics aren't great still but that's to be expected to an extent I feel. Like before I was jamming guitar through it and I had to keep getting up to ensure the take up reel was still spinning or I'd hear the speed slowly grind to a stop so for live jamming to it it's not great. What I've learnt instead is to send preprecorded material to it and then just go mad knowing that the source audio has already been caught sort of thing. I was sending some pixies acapellas through it before and it sounded massive! You were right that I didn't need to send the return track back into itself, eventually the echo dial does start to properly feedback and it gets very very echoey. The send effect approach in Ableton works as I thought it would. It's getting the balance right though so the effect doesn't overdominate sort of thing. What was incredibly annoying was not having a quick melodic audio sample ready to send to it! Single notes from a guitar work really well as you can hear what the effect is doing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 I'll listen to your audio tomorrow Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubularCorporation Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Hmm yeah I think you might be correct there but what I'm experiencing is that the take up reel is sometimes grinding to a total stop or slack tape ends up building up below the take up reel and the whole playback slows down so yeah the mechanics aren't great still but that's to be expected to an extent I feel. Like before I was jamming guitar through it and I had to keep getting up to ensure the take up reel was still spinning or I'd hear the speed slowly grind to a stop so for live jamming to it it's not great. What I've learnt instead is to send preprecorded material to it and then just go mad knowing that the source audio has already been caught sort of thing. I was sending some pixies acapellas through it before and it sounded massive! You were right that I didn't need to send the return track back into itself, eventually the echo dial does start to properly feedback and it gets very very echoey. The send effect approach in Ableton works as I thought it would. It's getting the balance right though so the effect doesn't overdominate sort of thing. What was incredibly annoying was not having a quick melodic audio sample ready to send to it! Single notes from a guitar work really well as you can hear what the effect is doing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Oh yeah, that's something else. I know that I keep coming back to the pinch roller, but it's possible that's the problem. When the pinch roller on my space echo went it got very slightly sticky - not enough that you could feel it at all, but enough that every 5 or 10 minutes the tape would bind to it enough that instead of going back into the bin, it came out the side of the machien onto the floor. If something similar is happening it's possible that it throws the tension of the tape off (maybe the pinch roller is actually to slick on yours and isn't gripping the tape consistently so the tension keeps varying and the machine is trying to compensate for that or something?). Are you using fresh tape? I've had some pretty bad experiences using old tape (but on the other hand, I've used old Maxell that was sitting sealed in a basement since the mid 70s and it worked fine, so you never know just by age). You might also check to make sure the height of both reels is the same so the tape passes streaight from one to the other without any sideways (relative to the tape path) tension or anything. When I got mine the platter (I'm pretty sure that's what they're called, it's been a few years since I thought about them - I mean the rotating disk part that the reel rests on when you have it mounted) on the takeup side had gotten pushed in so it was nearly rubbing against the front plate when it moved, and I had to loosed a couple of set screws inside and adjust it. There are also brakes on both sides (how they're built is going to depends on your machine, on the Otari they're metal leaf springs with felt padding that are wrapped partway around each platter, and there are solenoids that put tension on them to stop the platters spinning) and it's possible for them to get messed up from age. IIRC they also work along with motor speed to help regulate the tape tension but I could easily be misremembering. If you saw any belts last time you had it open, those are the price suspects though, along with the pinch roller. Rubber parts are the first to wear out on these things. Sounds like even as-is it is going to be useful, though. As far as balancing wet and dy, if you're monitoring from the repro (playback) head anyway, then there's no dry signal because the first thing you hear is already delayed by the head gap. The dry signal is the track in your DAW or whatever that you're adding echo to. Unless the echo mode on yours is blending in some of the direct signal from the inputs. Or am I misunderstanding how you're setting it up? Whn I was getting my space echo working years ago, one of the things that had gone off with it was that the bias was way off and one of the side effects so that is that even with the feedback all the way up it wasn't actually recording a hot enough signal to go into self oscillation. Since it's just an echo unit not some kind of mastering machine I adjusted it by ear, just set the feedback to around 75% and turned the bias trimmer until it started to self oscillate. Since yours is mainly an effect too, that's something else to explore - maybe if you bias it so that it's hitting the tape harder the internal echo mode will work better. That's another one to check the service manual for (but don't worry too much about correct procedure, you can't do any real harm adjusting it by ear, and it's old enough that the odds of it being properly biased to begin with are basically zero so no reason to worry about tweaking it a little - just thread some tape on, start recording a track that you know well onto it, set it to monitor from the repro head, and then adjust the bias trimmer so it sounds good to you at reasonable input levels (averaging around 0 on the VU meters) and you should be fine. It's not like a tube amp where if the bias is too far off it's going to mess up your tubes or something. EDIT: listening to it again, by far the most obvious tape flanging in that mp3 I posted is actually the string synth from 1:35 to 1:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polytrix Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 Hey man, thank you. Yeah I keep having the same problem as you described in the top of your post with the pinch roller sort of pinching it maybe too much and then tape falling to the floor. So it either grinds to a stop and slowly loses playback or does the thing with all the tape flowing down to the floor! This doesn't happen all the time. Some speed settings seem more reliable than others and I had it running for a good 30minutes before without issue. Without tape it runs great at all speeds without any major issues other than noise which I don't really care about. There are a few things I didn't manage to clean last time: 1) The take up reel assembly head (I was worried about breaking a C clip and didn't have a replacement at the time). That might be still a bit gunked up inside but its not a rubber exposed part it's just a plastic turning reel assembly basically which does rotate normally as you'd expect...it's already been lubed too. 2) I didn't clean the pinch roller shaft (another c clip there) and I haven't wet/dry sanded the pinch roller rubber like you said. It's hard to tell if it's too slick on the surface of it but I suppose I can add slight texture through the wet/dry sanding paper as you said? Worth a try? 3) I didn't remove the front plate which all the heads and wires come over the front for fear of fucking it up alignment wise and mechanically. That would be the only way I would be able to remove the capstan and clean that shaft but it rotates relatively well in my mind. 4) I didn't unscrew the metal motor flywheel itself and clean that shaft as the motor was spinning great and it's a pain to remove the tiny screws. I think I might try (2) or simply buy a new pinch roller. What do you think? Is it easy to buy new rubber parts? Probably not right? So it's kind of temperamental but I get there after a bit of trial and error. Yes, you were right about the echo knob - I simply use that as the 'feedback' and I can get it to self oscillate, it can quickly get out of control and push the VUs into the red so I have to sort of be ready to scale it back when that happens. If I have the same issue with the new tape that's coming in a few days I suppose I'll try and clean it again...almost there it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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