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jordan peterson


zaphod

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i heard him on his first rogan appearance and some of his self authoring shit seemed ok actually, but it felt like there was an ulterior motive behind a lot of it. i guess i'm allergic to any kind of for profit self improvement program

 

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^ we touched on this in chat, the appeal (attention, fame, leadership status) of becoming a public intellectual is equally compelling regardless of the monetary rewards

 

 

 

He cries in this one

 

 

I think this succinctly reflects the problem with Peterson. he's mixing up helping young men sort their lives out with a supposed culture war that doesn't have a lot to do with their personal development (and which, imo arguably doesn't exist on a scale he's supposing).

 

young men are not depressed and fucked up because the more rabid leftists/weirdos consider them all tyrants or misogynists or whatever. I couldn't give a fuck what those people - some of whom are in my fb newsfeed constantly - have to say and how it relates to my life cos I just tune it out, and there is no practical effect of any of it on my wellbeing. young men are fucked up because of their experiences and realisations about the nature of the world, of people, and the terms and conditions of life itself. it's a mistake to mix all that up together with this other anti-SJW stuff.

 

this is why I'm supportive of Peterson's therapy in trying to help young men grow up through personal-psychological methods but he really veers off in the wrong direction when he starts talking about society at large.

 

no offense but i don't think you're a particularly young man and your primary views of the world were probably shaped well before this entire movement came into form. he's probably not really talking about you in that case and i feel like he's probably referring to much younger and more impressionable people than you or i

 

 

I'm 33, and my views have taken a long and circuitous path to arrive at where they are now, where they've only been settled for something like the last 3 years. I anticipate (I hope, actually) that they will change further. which is to say that I wouldn't dismiss something just because my view doesn't accommodate it, without at least some attempt at evaluating it. but anyway - let's say we're talking about, what, under-25s for the purpose of this discussion? like around uni age.

 

(bear in mind I'm studying with a major Australian university at the moment, through online learning, and I'm doing a course that involves a fair bit of political and humanities-type elements. I've seen no evidence of the SJW tyranny that Peterson talks of. I can't recall a single person kicking up a fuss in our forums that went beyond polite, reasonable discussion. there might be problems in some pockets on campus, but if there are, they stay there and don't bleed into online discussion or into the outside non-academic world.)

 

even with the under-25 cohort, I find it hard to believe that SJWs/liberals/lefties/socialists/whatever are so out of control that they're actually damaging the self-esteem and psychological wellbeing of these guys, or that these guys have no means of support or ability to develop the personal fortitude necessary to protect themselves from criticisms which, really, form an inevitable part of the hardships in any person's life. people deal with way worse than social media-propagated SJW nonsense, like tangible serious life problems that need sustained attention and therapy. I think Peterson can help with those problems with the "clean your room" stuff but leave the rest of this nonsense.

 

particularly when he starts getting into the wind-up of Western values being under siege from radical ideologies, it smells like bs. maybe in your campus bubble you might hear a lot of talk about this but a) it's just talk, and b) in the practical non-academic world it comes to nothing (people find their cute revolutionary ideas are quite impracticable and discard them). so, I reiterate that I think Peterson is helpful with stuff like orienting yourself around goals, setting achievable tasks progressively, etc which are all basic self-help ideas advocated by many therapists, but I don't see any reason to take the rest of what he says seriously at this point.

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Yeah this is just not true, and many men's lives are literally ruined by hyperactive SJWs who push hard on sexual assault based interpretations of accusations of men saying hello and asking for a coffee date in elevators.  Anecdotal nature of this evidence aside, it happens and it's real and it may not be a part of your social sphere but it's real on university campuses for instance, the location he is primarily talking about and even talking at.

I don't believe it to be a big problem, sorry. I agree it can happen here and there (i.e. false/mistaken accusations, not just accusations), but the way you and others of your persuasion talk about it, it'd be rampant, and not just on campus. there'd be clear, documented, numerous instances of this for people to point to and say "this is out of hand", and I haven't seen any evidence for that. it's a chimera in the minds of young men who have baggage, are isolated, socially underdeveloped, and need to address those problems rather than reacting with bitter emotion to a perceived enemy.

 

I sympathise to some extent, I used to have all that baggage. but I made a deliberate effort not to take the intellectually lazy route of ignoring my problems and latching on to a grievance as an explanation for them.

 

i heard him on his first rogan appearance and some of his self authoring shit seemed ok actually, but it felt like there was an ulterior motive behind a lot of it. i guess i'm allergic to any kind of for profit self improvement program, and i also wasn't a fan of peterson's dodging a lot of questions about whether he's christian and actually believes old testament theology. i think if he exposes his real beliefs suddenly all of his objections to gender pronouns aren't about free speech or the slippery slope into fascism but are revealed to just be part of a larger, bigoted ideology. i'll admit this is all conjecture, but i've listened to him speak enough times to feel out where he's at and what he's not spelling out for people. i also hate that he blames nebulous things like marxism and post modernism for, as you said, how fucked up young men are when the real cause is the economic reality of attempting to make a life in the first world, where you are part of a self perpetuating system that provides you with every tool you need to remain disadvantaged. i don't think he's saying anything that conservatives haven't been telling economically depressed people for decades. it's a tedious way of telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. great, clean your room, sort yourself out, but that might not be enough.

 

yeah, I find his vagueness about what deeper beliefs might be driving his philosophical outlook a bit disingenuous. but maybe there isn't anything deeper there to uncover, idk.

 

stoicism in the face of adversity (economic or otherwise) I can actually support, but yes, it isn't enough for some people and it's a mistake to think that would suffice for everyone. you have to have a certain capability, a natural fortitude, to be stoic under all circumstances, and some people are just not made for it. that shouldn't mean that they're writeoffs as human beings, just like not every person who can't deadlift 300kgs is totally useless physically. there's a necessary balance in there somewhere.

 

edit: re economic aspect specifically, there are broader forces at work that aren't even in your control (as you suggest), unlike your own strictly personal-psychological sphere where you can "self-author" everything. so yeah, I guess stoicism is less useful there. can't keep your chin up when you're crushed under debt and shit wages and can't do anything about it for the foreseeable future.

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Usagi: you're probably right about the scale of it being exaggerated. The mere perception of it being a big deal is an idea that men can potentially externalise and project some of their shortcomings onto. Seemingly that's not too different from a marginalised group, let's say, attributing all their shortcomings to existing circumstances they perceive to present obstacles - only to reach a similar conclusion of "fuck it!"

 

My question is what's more harmful: this push of a so-called "SJW" narrative (which is very trendy and mainstream, just look at Vice Buzzfeed etc), or people like Peterson pointing it out (and potentially reinforcing that worldview in men). Let me reiterate I'm talking about perceptions of it being a threat, regardless of whether or not I think they are or not.

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Usagi: you're probably right about the scale of it being exaggerated. The mere perception of it being a big deal is an idea that men can potentially externalise and project some of their shortcomings onto. Seemingly that's not too different from a marginalised group, let's say, attributing all their shortcomings to existing circumstances they perceive to present obstacles - only to reach a similar conclusion of "fuck it!"
 
My question is what's more harmful: this push of a so-called "SJW" narrative (which is very trendy and mainstream, just look at Vice Buzzfeed etc), or people like Peterson pointing it out (and potentially reinforcing that worldview in men). Let me reiterate I'm talking about perceptions of it being a threat, regardless of whether or not I think they are or not.

 

 

I'm going to read between the lines and assume you're talking about migrants and racial minorities :cisfor: the same way I'd say that dismissing personal problems which are within your control in favour of blaming an "other" is cheap, I'd also say that blaming the "white man" for all your problems when you have the ability to get ahead if you make an effort is stupid. I hate it when I see it, and I rail about it all the time in front of my family and any of the broader migrant community they're around. saying "fuck it" and taking the easy route rather than acknowledging your own problems and focusing on them will cost you/your community more in the long run. that's not to say that there aren't legit grievances or problems in dealing with "white" status quo power structures, which are resistant to change and power-sharing, especially in Australia. but you should do what you can to get what you can, and fight to get what you can't. this is a whole other discussion.

 

I don't think Buzzfeed and Vice are very mainstream tbh, not in Aus anyway. Vice would probably get mad if you said that to them. I don't know people irl who read them on the reg, just some of the aforementioned social justice types on my fb newsfeed. so I think evaluating the real size of the threat with honesty and rigor is crucial before you start agitating about it, and I don't think Peterson's done that.

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vice are owned or funded by massive media conglomerates including fox, disney and a&e so no not exactly alternative

 

this thread is such a great example of how the overton window can be shifted nicely into the gapping maw of the right

sjws are no threat to good old down home pioneer spirit american values

islam will not stop u from having an empty american existence

pronouns and feminism are not out to hurt your brittle little manhood

the internet is not good for your isolation

peterson is symptomatic of a 5 minute attention span pseudo intellectual self help web vacuum

logic void of empathy is just a new way to flex in front of the mirror

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doesn't matter who they're owned or run by though, what matters is readership and the attention they command.

 

it does when a co-founder is now part of the alt-right. To conflate vice with the liberal left is a mistake. I recommend a recent moderate rebels podcast on their evolution. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_McInnes

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doesn't matter who they're owned or run by though, what matters is readership and the attention they command.

 

it does when a co-founder is now part of the alt-right. To conflate vice with the liberal left is a mistake. I recommend a recent moderate rebels podcast on their evolution. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_McInnes

 

 

that doesn't mean anything. we're talking about how widely-accepted their output is ("mainstream"), which I'm asserting is not as much as people might think. idgaf if they're left or right.

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I'm going to read between the lines and assume you're talking about migrants and racial minorities :cisfor:

 

Ha! I had women's movements in mind originally but figured it could be broadened out. Have a feeling there's more social justice types in Melbourne than in Sydney but could be wrong about that

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the Wikipedia entry for Jordan Peterson was recently edit-protected because someone kept doing this.

 

lol

 

usagi's posts in this thread are pretty much 100% my thinking on the dude and related issues

 

that is to say I am usagi

 

there isn't much of a critique anywhere in that half hour unfortunately, which is about what i'd expect from that podcast. but yeah, that comment section. wew

 

I enjoy Chapo Trap House but yeah it is basically just a lefty circlejerk

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Being asked to use another pronoun for certain people (literally just saying a different word) isn't a cultural war.

 

This is war:

 

 

from: https://ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

 

Statistics documenting transgender people's experience of sexual violence indicate shockingly high levels of sexual abuse and assault. One in two transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives.1 Some reports estimate that transgender survivors may experience rates of sexual assault up to 66 percent, often coupled with physical assaults or abuse.2 This indicates that the majority of transgender individuals are living with the aftermath of trauma and the fear of possible repeat victimization.

 

Yes this is one source, Google will kick up many more sources that say similar things.

 

Maybe this will give you a more specific idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States#2010%E2%80%93present

 

If you're a white male and you feel victimized by having to use a different word, then you need to get your mind right. I'd recommend spending way less time on the Internet and social media. Work on your interpersonal skills, talk to actual people in person. Or be even braver and actually talk to some people in the LGBTQ community, get their actual perspective.

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Being asked to use another pronoun for certain people (literally just saying a different word) isn't a cultural war.

 

This is war:

 

 

from: https://ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

 

Statistics documenting transgender people's experience of sexual violence indicate shockingly high levels of sexual abuse and assault. One in two transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives.1 Some reports estimate that transgender survivors may experience rates of sexual assault up to 66 percent, often coupled with physical assaults or abuse.2 This indicates that the majority of transgender individuals are living with the aftermath of trauma and the fear of possible repeat victimization.

 

Yes this is one source, Google will kick up many more sources that say similar things.

 

Maybe this will give you a more specific idea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States#2010%E2%80%93present

 

If you're a white male and you feel victimized by having to use a different word, then you need to get your mind right. I'd recommend spending way less time on the Internet and social media. Work on your interpersonal skills, talk to actual people in person. Or be even braver and actually talk to some people in the LGBTQ community, get their actual perspective.

 

Yep. 

 

My general reaction to the hyper logical mens rights anti feminist evolutionary psychology types is...u need to get our more. 

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All of the cases mentioned in that wiki are people who identify as either male or female. With respect pattern, that's not quite the issue of contention here.

 

With regards to compelling people to adopt made-up language such as gender-neutral pronouns (not he nor she), and having it backed by law such that those who refuse to conform to the new language get punished, is up for reasonable debate. And that's that

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ok, just read his wikipedia article and is pretty clear to me that he
is definitely a conservative intellectual/political activist that
really doesn't add anything new to that body of ideas.

(disclosure: i think i'm fairly liberal---trying to accomodate to the
USA notion here---; closer to the left-wing in other words.)

i don't think he poses a threat of any kind, though. actually, i
believe it is a good thing that these ideas are represented and
expressed through public discourse, in debates and such, even if we
don't agree with them. but of course, it is natural to sense some
risk, and that is at the root of the slippery slope rethoric in both
sides of the political spectrum.

i'm with usagi here about this "postmodern cultural/neo marxism"
fear-driven nonsense. i suppose everyone has to build its own
culprits. afaik the inquiry and debate of norms and values is a
consequence of modernity and its institutions, not the agenda of an
unified "postmodernist-marxist" thought.

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