Elon Musk's Starman - Is this shit real wtf

[Nebraska]

7 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

The tweet was just about the age of consent for these types of procedures.

for what reason? that tweet seems to support my argument that there is a flaw in "who decided children are too young to make this decision" considering one can enlist in the armed services at a younger age than they can qualify to gamble, or purchase alcohol or tobacco. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Nebraska

[taphead]

lol Summon just cite your bs suicide rate numbers rather than alluding to it, so that people can look into it and see that they're bs

Also this age argument is always so funny to me because there isn't any kind of push towards ending teen driving, even though it's been their leading cause of death (though guns are overtaking it now). Like you'd think if someone was interested in protecting kids, the drivers license would be the place to start. But no, that would impact fast food labor availability! Burgers might be more expensive!

We really need to figure out a way to get transness to make burgers cost less money.

[Nebraska]

3 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

Nevertheless, the arbitrary nature of the specific cutoff does not sway me to agree that young, impressionable children living in this postmodern, constantly-online nightmare world should be enabled to make drastic, permanent decisions to amputate their healthy penis and testicles or breasts.

you don't have to agree because nobody is asking you to make any drastic, permanent decisions to amputate your healthy penis and testicles or breasts. someone else might want to do that though. not every individual that wants to have gender reassignment surgery gets to undergo that procedure due to: medical complications, cost and not qualifying. 

[taphead]

9 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

I heard it was 41%, is this not true? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a hard time finding unbiased sources these days.

This comes from this study https://studylib.net/doc/13499004/suicide-attempts-among-transgender-and-gender-non-conform and is just generally about whether this population of people have ever been driven to attempt suicide. And yes, I can confirm that living in a world that is actively hostile to your existence can make someone suicidal. This study doesn't really give any indication about how recieving treatment and support can help with suicidiality, but from personal experience I can say that it really helps. I never attempted suicide, but I lived without any concern for there being a tomorrow. And now I'm invested in my future. I don't know if I would have lived through adolescence if I was aware that help existed for me, but I was actively being kept with it from people who would claim to be concerned for my wellbeing.

[Nebraska]

10 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

This girl had a double mastectomy at 15 and was on hormones at 13.

Quote

18 ⋆ ⋆ suspiciously photogenic ⋆ former trans kid T + Blockers at 13, Double Mastectomy at 15, detransed at 16 chloecolespeakinginquiries@gmail.com

I don't think it's right to do that to kids.

do you know how she had that double mastectomy? was it completely random? did she have a health problem? was she diagnosed with a dysphoria? 

also you should consider: if you don't think this is right, maybe the people that did it know more than you do. i'm not saying they do, but perhaps you can think they do instead of thinking they don't. after all, we can't judge all gender transformation surgeries based on that one girl's experience 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Nebraska

[Nebraska]

8 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

Here it is in her own words:

she only said she was mentally ill and able to consent. that's extremely vague. so i'm guessing whatever doctor/institution performed the surgery didn't even ask her about any other health complications or evaluate her to see if she would be psychologically ready for such a procedure. 

i'll err on the side of not believing this individual especially considering how expensive and "difficult" it is to get complicated medical surgeries performed in the united states

[zlemflolia]

3 hours ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

I don't read the Daily Wire so I can't speak to whether I think they generally tell the truth, but this is a good documentary.

Chloe Cole was mutilated as a child and now blames the medical industry. She supports this documentary, which I encourage everyone to watch before you dismiss it as "disinformation". Many people are so polarized that they completely ignore reality if it goes against the orthodoxy of their political cult.

 

le epic cis debaters owning the trans with facts and logic, trans families and children should realize its not their place to make decisions for their own life, its actually the job of bearded right wing nobs to decide, we definitely need to force trans kids to undergo 18 years of misery and suicidal ideation, thanks for sharing your enlightened worldview, if only we could public-debate-ify even more issues of personal freedom until we figure out the real answer to every one and appropriately ban the freedoms that arent safe for people to have over themselves

[Nebraska]

4 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

What age do you think boys should be allowed to ask for castration?

when they're ready for it. each individual may be at a different age. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Nebraska

[zlemflolia]

remember, when it comes to trans rights, only the voices of detransitioners matter /s

[zlemflolia]

1 minute ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

At what age do you think boys should be allowed to ask for castration?

castration is basically never performed on trans children, they just take hrt? have you even read about this at all?  you know they are taking isolated instances of legitimate medical malpractice and using it to push a narrative of taking away trans peoples rights entirely?  or do you not?  i suspect you dont know much of anything TBH

Edited June 2, 2023 by zlemflolia

[zlemflolia]

2 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

HRT is irreversible, by the way.

GOOD THATS THE POINT

unfortunately its not as irreversible as you think

Edited June 2, 2023 by zlemflolia

[taphead]

39 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

That being said, these medical procedures preclude the individuals from moving past any identity issues that might be temporary. I struggled with identity issues for much of my life. It's very, very hard to do anything in life when you feel so terrible about yourself.

The reason you only ever see the same half dozen detransitioners is because these surgeries are incredibly rare for children. Even as an adult, I need to get two separate letters from therapists to approve an orchiectomy, and that's just removing the balls. I'm not even sure if it's possible for anyone under 18 to get that.

Transgender surgeries already have some of the lowest regret rates on the books. How low does it have to be for you to accept that teenagers could recieve this life saving medical care? Like if you think this is bad, get a load of https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5123667/

Edited June 2, 2023 by taphead

[zlemflolia]

6 minutes ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

At what age do you think boys should be allowed to ask for castration?

anyway this is the fundamental issue transphobes like u dont get

they arent boys they are girls, trans girls, that you are talking about here

what is the right age for a girl to undergo male puberty?

no age at all

[ignatius]

2 hours ago, Summon Dot E X E said:

Even if so, this child abuse has finally crossed the line.

if the issue was child abuse the catholic church would be banned.. the boyscouts of america would be banned etc etc... 

this is about people attacking the "other". anything that deviates from what they consider the norm is a threat or is used as way to stoke fears, gather support.. usher in some other agenda.. that's what's happening here.. this is about power.. who has it.. who wants it.. how to get it etc.. if they have to throw a bunch of people to wolves to get it then that's what they'll do. 

edit: crosspost

 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by ignatius

[custom knob]

It’d be lovely if puberty could just wait until the age of 21 so all these troglodytes could fuck off with their “but the children” arguments but unfortunately reality intervenes.

 

I can only speak to how gender clinics work where I come from but basically they’re staffed with people who are experts in these conditions who never take any life altering decisions lightly and always involve multiple assessments from psychologists, endocrinologists and surgeons - informed consent is still a legal requirement  - look up gillick competence summon - that’s the deciding factor

[zlemflolia]

the biggest issue with the medical establishment that trans people face is lack of access to healthcare, both normal healthcare for normal medical issues, and especially trans healthcare which is now illegal in many places or gatekept so much that you are forced to undergo the wrong puberty for years before you get hrt.

the problem is NOT receiving too much healthcare.

in a world where healthcare is a scarce commodity for the rich, the idea that they are actively giving people too much very expensive healthcare that they don't need is absurd and completely out of line with reality

[vkxwz]

This whole topic is a mess imo, @Summon Dot E X E I understand where you're coming from completely and agree in a lot of ways in terms of the the age of consent stuff. And to @zlemflolia the lack of "normal" healthcare is obviously a bad thing, and the bigotry that's rooted in disgust/religious beleifs/resistance to things that go against ones world view needs to go. If I'm talking about what I think should be allowed in terms of transitioning in the current society, I think that it really is something that has pros and cons that need to be weighed up, obviously the risk of regret does exist to some extent(altho small) and there are health risks involved too, but the other side of the story is the positives you get from it, being the alleviation of dysphoria and generally higher quality of life and life satisfaction in many cases. For a long time I did feel that there was just something wrong about transness, since I see gender as something similar to sex stereotypes, and then transitioning is identifying with the stereotype of the sex that doesn't match your own and then modifying your body to match that sex more(which is very odd to me if you use analogies to explain the concept). but in the end for many people in our current society the transition actually seems like a good option when you weighs the pros and cons. The real interesting part to me is what actually causes the dysphoria and gives people the motivation to want to transition, my opinion is that it's a societal / cultural issue where people that don't match the stereotype of their sex are viewed in a negative way. There will always be a wide range of behaviours and personalities and bodies within each sex and viewing certain kinda of configurations as wrong or bad is where the issue stems from. But also you can do whatever you want with your body so even if somehow the culture "fixes" this issue I think people should be allowed to cut off their balls etc.

[taphead]

19 minutes ago, vkxwz said:

The real interesting part to me is what actually causes the dysphoria and gives people the motivation to want to transition, my opinion is that it's a societal / cultural issue where people that don't match the stereotype of their sex are viewed in a negative way.

It's pretty wild that we've come so far as a civilization, but we can still only speculate about why transgender people pursue their transitions, as the risks of communicating with them directly are still so tremendous. Hopefully when Elon Musk does his brain implant thing, we can start to get some answers here!

[Nebraska]

23 minutes ago, taphead said:

Hopefully when Elon Musk does his brain implant thing, we can start to get some answers here!

would've been cheaper, easier and quicker if he just asked his trans kid to clear things up 

[zlemflolia]

1 hour ago, vkxwz said:

 The real interesting part to me is what actually causes the dysphoria and gives people the motivation to want to transition, my opinion is that it's a societal / cultural issue where people that don't match the stereotype of their sex are viewed in a negative way.

luckily your opinion doesn't matter, if you ask actual trans people it's an internal mental disconnect from the body, roughly comparable to phantom limb syndrome if that's more understandable to you, and it comes from within entirely.  its probably caused by factors like genetics and hormonal conditions in the womb

what you are putting forward is called "social contagion theory" originally popularized by the Nazis as an excuse to exterminate LGBT people.  so you should rethink.

even though you are being seemingly civil in your post, you are spreading tons of misinformation and pontificating on things that you dont really have a right to care about this much, it's not a debate topic its others lives

its also not a mystery or something we need to investigate further as a society.  it's already settled, but lots of cis people have a newfound pseudo-interest in it created by media narratives

Edited June 3, 2023 by zlemflolia

[zlemflolia]

even though i havent researched this for even 5 minutes, i need to share my thoughts on the matter.  i must take part in the debate

what debate? well the one they keep talking about on fox news of course

[vkxwz]

2 hours ago, taphead said:

It's pretty wild that we've come so far as a civilization, but we can still only speculate about why transgender people pursue their transitions, as the risks of communicating with them directly are still so tremendous. Hopefully when Elon Musk does his brain implant thing, we can start to get some answers here!

I'll admit I don't know much about the topic, my views are formed pretty much entirely from talking to people that actually experience gender dysphoria but I recognize that the reasons are probably different for different people so I can't generalise to everyone. I am curious about what your experience is/was but don't want to pry, the few trans people I do know irl don't want to discuss this kind of thing with strangers.

1 hour ago, zlemflolia said:

luckily your opinion doesn't matter, if you ask actual trans people it's an internal mental disconnect from the body, roughly comparable to phantom limb syndrome if that's more understandable to you, and it comes from within entirely.  its probably caused by factors like genetics and hormonal conditions in the womb

what you are putting forward is called "social contagion theory" originally popularized by the Nazis as an excuse to exterminate LGBT people.  so you should rethink.

even though you are being seemingly civil in your post, you are spreading tons of misinformation and pontificating on things that you dont really have a right to care about this much, it's not a debate topic its others lives

its also not a mystery or something we need to investigate further as a society.  it's already settled, but lots of cis people have a newfound pseudo-interest in it created by media narratives

I agree it doesn't matter, and I don't know about the social contagion theory but it seems quite plausible to me that these things are largely nurture not nature. If you feel like I'm presenting incorrect information I would like to know how and be proven wrong if possible. This "misinformation" is just my best understanding which I don't claim is the ultimate truth and I'm not gonna just adopt whatever opinion is the flavour of the month unless I fully work through it and understand it.

If it'll make you happy I'll add a disclaimer; I'm an idiot who's not trans or an academic in this area and I'm mainly just curious about how the whole thing works and I care about the issue because people close to me have had struggles related to the topic.

And I'd argue it isn't all figured out and that there is actually still mystery remaining but if that's not the case, could you provide links to some information?

Edited June 3, 2023 by vkxwz

[ignatius]

Edited June 3, 2023 by ignatius

[zlemflolia]

1 hour ago, vkxwz said:

I'll admit I don't know much about the topic, my views are formed pretty much entirely from talking to people that actually experience gender dysphoria but I recognize that the reasons are probably different for different people so I can't generalise to everyone. I am curious about what your experience is/was but don't want to pry, the few trans people I do know irl don't want to discuss this kind of thing with strangers.

I agree it doesn't matter, and I don't know about the social contagion theory but it seems quite plausible to me that these things are largely nurture not nature. If you feel like I'm presenting incorrect information I would like to know how and be proven wrong if possible. This "misinformation" is just my best understanding which I don't claim is the ultimate truth and I'm not gonna just adopt whatever opinion is the flavour of the month unless I fully work through it and understand it.

If it'll make you happy I'll add a disclaimer; I'm an idiot who's not trans or an academic in this area and I'm mainly just curious about how the whole thing works and I care about the issue because people close to me have had struggles related to the topic.

And I'd argue it isn't all figured out and that there is actually still mystery remaining but if that's not the case, could you provide links to some information?

your views are from talking to people with gender dysphoria? interesting how you reached the opposite conclusions of what most people with it say then..? if you know nothing, you are a blank slate, and shud take my word for it.  just do some basic intro reading and follow sources below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

[aderei]

So on elon....nobody actually thinks he's an engineer right?