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Behringer Sues


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33 replies to this topic

#1 Stickfigger

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 02:45 PM

So Behringer has attempted to sue a DSI employee and Gearsutz users for defamation ?

http://cdm.link/2018...for-defamation/

#2 Gocab

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 02:48 PM

That's a ridiculously bad PR move.

#3 Stickfigger

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 02:55 PM

That's a ridiculously bad PR move.


Shhhh they are reading this , you might get sued

#4 auxien

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 03:12 PM

Yeah, that's pretty shit. I wonder if they'll sue me about my rants on Gearslutz about how shitty the graphics on the Neutron are.


Edited by auxien, 19 June 2018 - 03:17 PM.


#5 ignatius

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 03:13 PM

fuck behringer. that's a harrassement lawsuit. 



#6 Haste

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 04:12 PM

Man, of all the companies that shouldn't have a high horse.



#7 Stickfigger

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 04:19 PM

a Chinese company flooding the market with cheap stuff produced by a combination of acquired IP and cheap labour - then trying to shut down free speech surrounding the matter - well I never thought in a thousand years ....

#8 RSP

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 05:24 PM

They didn't just lose the lawsuit they also lost the Internet.

 

I don't know if it's true but the rumor is that MAckie actually deliberately watermarked one of their PCBs by including some technically meaningless, distinctive patterns in the traces, and used that to prove that Behringer were literally copying their design by buying a Mackie, stripping the PCB, scanning or photographing it, and using that image to make an exact clone of it.


Edited by RSP, 19 June 2018 - 05:45 PM.


#9 sheathe

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:28 PM

My behringer stuff is rock solid. The Uphoria 4x4 is the best deal on a 4i4o interface that exists, and I’ve used one in an art installation I worked on. Worked without hitch, even has inserts.

Maybe behringer is cheap but maybe the electronic gear market is inflated by about 30%.

I have dsi stuff and behringer. It all has a place imo.

#10 Entorwellian

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:29 PM

They didn't just lose the lawsuit they also lost the Internet.

 

I don't know if it's true but the rumor is that MAckie actually deliberately watermarked one of their PCBs by including some technically meaningless, distinctive patterns in the traces, and used that to prove that Behringer were literally copying their design by buying a Mackie, stripping the PCB, scanning or photographing it, and using that image to make an exact clone of it.

That's fucked up if true. I'll boycott behringer products if that is the case. I've never had problems with my behringer products or anything but that is outright plagiarism.


Edited by Entorwellian, 19 June 2018 - 06:30 PM.


#11 Stickfigger

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:32 PM

I have a Behringer UFX1604 mixer and it works great for the price except for a dodgy power connection.

 

 

My behringer stuff is rock solid. The Uphoria 4x4 is the best deal on a 4i4o interface that exists, and I’ve used one in an art installation I worked on. Worked without hitch, even has inserts.

Maybe behringer is cheap but maybe the electronic gear market is inflated by about 30%.

I have dsi stuff and behringer. It all has a place imo.



#12 Mesh Gear Fox

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:57 PM

My behringer stuff is rock solid. The Uphoria 4x4 is the best deal on a 4i4o interface that exists, and I’ve used one in an art installation I worked on. Worked without hitch, even has inserts.

Maybe behringer is cheap but maybe the electronic gear market is inflated by about 30%.

I have dsi stuff and behringer. It all has a place imo.


kinda gotta agree with this, and gear snobs making fun of behringer for allowing access for ppl that can't afford fancy lexicon reverbs or whatnot THEMSELVES create a market for high end bullshit, so i really doubt all the audio companies that aren't behringer are actually suffering that much because of them 'undercutting' all this good honest gear.

having said that, suing people is clearly a dick move when you consider the circumstances and their practices. i'm sure other companies have ripped each other off a buttload but behringer have kinda been proud about it.

Edited by Mesh Gear Fox, 19 June 2018 - 07:14 PM.


#13 thawkins

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 07:13 PM

a Chinese company flooding the market with cheap stuff produced by a combination of acquired IP and cheap labour - then trying to shut down free speech surrounding the matter - well I never thought in a thousand years ....

 

I'm still pretty sure Behringer is a German company, at least Wikipedia shows the headquarters being there. The stuff is of course all made in China for the significant part. However I wouldn't say suing their customers is a Chinese business practice really - these guys copy everyone and everything anyway and I don't think any of them has any illusions that some law is going to punish anyone (unless someone's pissed off the powers that be).

 

I went over the article linked in the original post and what a bunch of shit. I was just thinking that hey Behringer's getting better at making stuff and it is no longer a company that you buy when you absolutely need the cheapest thing. Suing like that is just a dick move, they lost a lot of good faith now.

 

I think it's a fact that everyone copies - either blatantly or less so. The basic layout & features of a step sequencer drum machine are more or less the same across the board, yet Roland don't go around suing people. AKAI are not suing Maschine for the 4x4 pads. Of course if you just literally copy the circuit board like a dumbass you deserve what you get. If it was possible to play fair and chuck out tons of different quality gear for the low price Behringer does, then Uli would be a phenomenal business genius, so there's got to be some catch.



#14 Stickfigger

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 07:27 PM

 

a Chinese company flooding the market with cheap stuff produced by a combination of acquired IP and cheap labour - then trying to shut down free speech surrounding the matter - well I never thought in a thousand years ....

 

I'm still pretty sure Behringer is a German company, at least Wikipedia shows the headquarters being there. The stuff is of course all made in China for the significant part. However I wouldn't say suing their customers is a Chinese business practice really - these guys copy everyone and everything anyway and I don't think any of them has any illusions that some law is going to punish anyone (unless someone's pissed off the powers that be).

 

I went over the article linked in the original post and what a bunch of shit. I was just thinking that hey Behringer's getting better at making stuff and it is no longer a company that you buy when you absolutely need the cheapest thing. Suing like that is just a dick move, they lost a lot of good faith now.

 

I think it's a fact that everyone copies - either blatantly or less so. The basic layout & features of a step sequencer drum machine are more or less the same across the board, yet Roland don't go around suing people. AKAI are not suing Maschine for the 4x4 pads. Of course if you just literally copy the circuit board like a dumbass you deserve what you get. If it was possible to play fair and chuck out tons of different quality gear for the low price Behringer does, then Uli would be a phenomenal business genius, so there's got to be some catch.

 

 

I can see they are owned by Music Group which is a holding group based out of the Phillipines. They just built a new manufacturing facility in China that can house up to 10000 workers. Music Group is chaired by the founder of Behringer. Interestingly they also have TC Electronics and TC Helicon as part of their portfolio.

 

So yeah, not a Chinese company per se but all of the manufacturing comes from there and i don't know how separate manufacturing and design are in this case. 



#15 ignatius

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:19 PM

 

My behringer stuff is rock solid. The Uphoria 4x4 is the best deal on a 4i4o interface that exists, and I’ve used one in an art installation I worked on. Worked without hitch, even has inserts.

Maybe behringer is cheap but maybe the electronic gear market is inflated by about 30%.

I have dsi stuff and behringer. It all has a place imo.


kinda gotta agree with this, and gear snobs making fun of behringer for allowing access for ppl that can't afford fancy lexicon reverbs or whatnot THEMSELVES create a market for high end bullshit, so i really doubt all the audio companies that aren't behringer are actually suffering that much because of them 'undercutting' all this good honest gear.

having said that, suing people is clearly a dick move when you consider the circumstances and their practices. i'm sure other companies have ripped each other off a buttload but behringer have kinda been proud about it.

 

 

 

behringer sued 20 individual anonymous posters on gearslutz. basically sued the end user for having opinions. this is a shitty thing to do. fuck behringer. that's just bullshit and is harassment because they know the suit isn't going to go anywhere. it's just done to fuck with people. 

 

a friend used to work at a shop that sold behringer stuff. this place also did warranty repairs for lot's of people. so, when a behringer mixer came back broken or whatever.. the policy was (and this was explicitly told to them by the behringer reps) to take the broken mixer out back in the parking lot and destroy it with hammers and put it in the dumpster and then give the customer a new mixer as a replacement. it was cheaper to just give the person a new one than try to fix the old one... and they were made to not be fixed. 

 

so, it's hard for me to get behind that kind of planned waste. 

 

i'm glad people can get the $300 minimoog model D clone. it sounds pretty good.. it's probably made in the same way as their mixers.  

 

obviously the behringer clone is way cheaper than an actual moog. most people can't/won't splash out for a moog especially when there is a $400 clone that maybe doesn't sound identical but is close enough. 

 

moog makes a living. they employ people locally who make stuff. they have a lot to work with.. the name, the history, the museum the festival etc.  as long as they don't do too many things like make a moog guitar or whatever they'll be around a long time. but they have a factory and QC and all that right there in asheville NC and aren't on some island off the coast of china or wherever having widgets made for pennies by exploited workers. i don't think they're suiciding out of windows and being caught by nets designed for that purpose like at apple factories.. or peeing in jugs and running from place to place like at an amazon fulfillment center here in the USA but i bet they're making peanuts and working long hours and have no rights to strike or unionize.

 

the margins are pretty tight in a lof of synth gear. modular synth margins suck. i don't know how stores make a it work while having sales etc. there's just not much room in a lot of it especially for modules from EU/UK which have taxes, shipping etc.  behringer coming out w/a bunch of $99 synth modules will devalue the work of other smaller manufacturers and some not so small. it's weird.. but there are things like MAP - minimum advertised price - here in the USA so shops can't advertise low low prices to devalue the market for the manufacturers. there's contracts and strict rules so brands can control how their stuff appears and how it's sold. 

 

i wouldn't be surprised to see certain brands only available in a few places in the coming year to keep the exclusivity of it or whatever.. in tact. even brands like moog or eventide. 

 

anyway.. none of this has anything to do w/behringer just being dicks and sueing people for no reason other than butthurt.  fuck Uli Behringer.  the brand is pretty big now though. they own lot's of other smaller brands. buy more every year it seems. 



#16 Mesh Gear Fox

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:40 PM

i'm not buying that they're actually undercutting anyone to the point where it affects them. the gear market doesn't really work that way, it's not like a car where you just buy one thing and you're set. and people with the behringer model d probably weren't going to buy the moog one anyway. ideally you're making shit that is unique and does something special so that gearheads buy it even when they have everything else. this applies to behringer too and i think they're starting to go their own way more and more.

and what about someone selling a second hand moog, are they taking business away from moog too?

#17 ignatius

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:40 PM

 i don't know how separate manufacturing and design are in this case. 

 

 

 

w/products manufactured in such big numbers the design is closely tied. cost of every part is considered.  sometimes you know when you get a rev 2 of something because it has fewer screws in the case.  that kind of thing will be the only change because it saves 2 cents per build or something. there's just an empty hole in the bottom where there used to be a screw. first time i saw this i forgot it was just bad QC but all the ones from the 2nd batch were that way.

 

not gonna mention any names. just know it's a common practice for companies. 

 

it's also common to just do a revision of a PCB to make it easier to build or be more efficient etc. but cost cutting happens continuously i think for some companies. 



#18 ignatius

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:47 PM

i'm not buying that they're actually undercutting anyone to the point where it affects them. the gear market doesn't really work that way, it's not like a car where you just buy one thing and you're set. and people with the behringer model d probably weren't going to buy the moog one anyway. ideally you're making shit that is unique and does something special so that gearheads buy it even when they have everything else. this applies to behringer too and i think they're starting to go their own way more and more.

and what about someone selling a second hand moog, are they taking business away from moog too?

 

yeah.. moog is a different case. it's moog. the person buying the subaru wasn't going to buy a porsche. 

 

and the used market is always there and is something that has to be considered because often a manufacturer ends up competing against their own product via the used market. this is particularly true in eurorack which is part of the reason some manufacturers just keep making new modules and releasing them. 

 

but other brands just do smaller runs.. sell them.. wait a bit until demand is up and then do another run.. then come out w/something new etc. smaller runs of things. 

 

i've probably contradicted myself somewhere but oh well.. i'm of two minds about cheap gear coming into the market. part of it is good part of it is bad and usually someone somewhere is getting exploited and someone else is making a bunch of money. 

 

i'd rather see behringer make something new of their own design than another analog monosynth.  how many 24db ladder filters does the world need? 



#19 thawkins

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:31 PM

I agree with all your points generally. E-waste is shit (which is why I try to buy and make use of used gear) and so is exploiting workers. Buying up smaller companies to create huge conglomerates registered in random tax havens seems to be an unfortunate effect of capitalism. After all, if the competition does it, you will lose in the short term if you do not adapt. Whoever wins, we lose. :)

 

I just wanted to mention that something like 49% of Moog should actually be employee owned (the other 51% belonging to the original owner), so the people working there should have plenty to say in how the company is run and probably care more about the stuff they make.



#20 Zephyr_Nova

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 11:31 PM

So Behringer has attempted to sue a DSI employee and Gearsutz users for defamation ?

http://cdm.link/2018...for-defamation/

 

lol



#21 Lada Laika

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 04:09 AM

lol what the fuck?

#22 Braintree

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 11:57 AM

lol



#23 user

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 12:29 AM

This really really makes me reconsider getting a Neutron or any of the other upcoming stuff. What a fucking shitty move. Why the hell would they do this?

Is this a legal department going renegade or is Uli behind this? Wonder what he has to say although he might hide behind some bullshit about not being able to comment on any running legal matters. 



#24 Gocab

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 12:56 AM

Yeah, same. I was going to buy the neutron, but now I don't think I'll bother. Which is probably good as I already have plenty of dust gathering devices.

#25 Guest_Chesney_*

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 04:54 AM

I was kinda stoked on Behringer doing all these cheap synths but this really does taint their objectives. Poor show.

I was never going to buy any of their products though as I am a self confessed elitest and I don't want synths that everyone will have.

Jk, not k, maybe half k. Very self aware about k so don't call me out on it ;)


Edited by Chesney, 21 June 2018 - 04:55 AM.