Veganism

[zlemflolia]

I think veganism is a very noble idea, however... it completely ignores that a huge percent of the worlds population don't have the option to eat fancy wholefoods style shit.

 

Most people need to eat the food with the highest nutrition at the lowest cost, to feed themselves and their families, and inevitably it's things like chicken that they can afford.

 

To condemn people then for eating nutritious food they can afford instead of eating expensive non-meat alternatives, is actually such a privileged thing to do. so stop it.

 

You're confusing bourgeoisie imported rich people food and meat replacements with vegan food and this is a major but common fallacy.  I pointed this out on the first page.  For many vegans they're the same thing, but it's not a requirement at all.

 

Being vegan is cheaper than a standard carnist diet overall.

 

Here's a chart of plain calories.  Notice how nuts are cheaper than the majority of meats, with the exceptions being calorie-dense unhealthy ones with excess fat like beef brisket or bacon.  Eggs are a very good value for the money, I'll give you that, but they're beaten by almonds, peanuts, and matched by potatoes

 

Calories are not nutrients, but the vegan alternatives to calorie-dense carnist staples are higher in vitamins and minerals than meat.  

 

 

 

This is not a comprehensive set of data but I'd like to see you back up your claim further since my skepticism levels are very high and it feels like you just tried to shoehorn the word "privilege" into your post, which is ironic since saying "I need nutrients so I'm allowed to kill and eat you" is speaking from a position of extreme speciesist privilege as well.

 

Furthermore poorness is positively correlated with being overweight, so clearly the carnism being thrust upon them by their socioeconomic position is not benefiting them at all, which was your claim and your justification for them avoiding ethical responsibility for the factory farm death and pain related externalities of their actions.  They should switch to nuts, seeds, and tofu

 

Tofu is on par in cost with chicken by the way and it's actually significantly more affordable for one main reason: it doesn't really go bad.  You can buy bulk tofu very cheap and this can replace all meats in anyone's diet.

[zlemflolia]

It's also speaking from a place of extreme speciesist privilege to claim "I'm too poor to afford vegan food so I have to eat meat" unless you work all day long.  It's basically saying "I need nutrients, and I can't handle taking on a second part-time job and working an extra 20 hours a week, so I'm going to force an animal to sacrifice its entire life, every year it lived, so that I can eat it and obtain my nutrients and forego working extra every week to afford vegan food which doesn't nourish my body as much as sacrificial animal carcasses, the cooked remains of animals whose nerves sent suffering to its brain because the factory farm worker got too lazy to kill it right n% of the time and let it go down the slaughterhouse line hanging from its feet only to get boiled alive further on down the line, that's ethically acceptable because -I- need -MY- N U T R I E N T S FOR MY NOURISHMENT and I'm poor so you can't tell me otherwise because you're just too privileged to understand how much I need meat and can't eat garbanzo beans and tofu"

[auxien]

 

edit: be vegan that's great, no problems from me about it at all, chat away. just seeing silly shit posted about anything makes me cringe.... sorry to those just discussing like normal humans on a forum, you all carry on. :)

[Hugh Mughnus]

Zeff has gone full retard. Speciest privilege? lol. 

 

Yeh tell that to all the other meat eating species on the planet. Fuck you tiger, eat a fucking salad you speciest. 

 

You fucking imbecile, no shit a human won't take on a part time job and work an extra 20hrs a week just to afford to meet nutritional needs. Not even in the developed world, are you even innately aware of the implications of that for the developing world?

 

You do realize, the natural world over, that some species (a huge majority of them) predate, right? You have literally zero argument to back up your premise. 

[Hugh Mughnus]

Speciest privelege. Let's discuss that as a term actually. Are we supposed to roll around in our own faeces and piss on ourselves like pigs and elephants? I mean, there aren't any degrees of separation between species right?

[zlemflolia]

Zeff has gone full retard. Speciest privilege? lol. 

 

Yeh tell that to all the other meat eating species on the planet. Fuck you tiger, eat a fucking salad you speciest. 

 

You fucking imbecile, no shit a human won't take on a part time job and work an extra 20hrs a week just to afford to meet nutritional needs. Not even in the developed world, are you even innately aware of the implications of that for the developing world?

 

You do realize, the natural world over, that some species (a huge majority of them) predate, right? You have literally zero argument to back up your premise. 

 

Cats are obligate carnivores so they have to eat meat, humans are omnivores who do not have to eat meat.  And you don't have to work an extra 20 hours a week to afford food, I already explained how it's cheaper to be vegan.  Yes many species predate, what does that have to do with human veganism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

[zlemflolia]

Speciest privelege. Let's discuss that as a term actually. Are we supposed to roll around in our own faeces and piss on ourselves like pigs and elephants? I mean, there aren't any degrees of separation between species right?

 

Nobody in this thread including myself even remotely suggested that anyone should roll around in their own faeces or piss themselves.  It's ironic that you try to group "rolling in your own shit" alongside "behaving ethically" (the things I suggest we should do upon acknowledgement of other species as agents deserving of ethical consideration), something you just claimed animals are incapable of.  We're more capable than non-human animals at meeting our needs, so we have an obligation to treat right those who aren't

 

In a hypothetical interstellar multi-species society speciesism would be as legitimate as any isms in our modern society like sexism or racism.  Why does it not apply to us just because the animals we find ourselves with are less powerful than us and less capable of asserting their sentience and their rightful place in the world?  If anything that give us a greater obligation

 

As for your claims that the developing world is a place we should care about (which I agree with) are you aware that abolishing the factory farm industry and instead growing human-edible plants in those same fields currently growing feed for livestock, would result in ample food to end all world hunger even including food waste?  Veganism is the most humanistic policy you can take even if you disregard the animals.  It's compounded further by the environmental gains we would achieve (reduced methane emissions, reduced demand for deforested Amazon land to grow cattle on, etc)

 

"Full retard" isn't an argument especially when you won't back up your own

[Hugh Mughnus]

Thank you for your measured response to my inflammatory one. Let me digest and go from there.

[Hugh Mughnus]

Respect/reversing my disrespect

[Hugh Mughnus]

Personal attacks are unwarranted and I apologize for making any. Just a touch offended by some of the implications of some of your posts. Sorry

[zlemflolia]

Yeah I know the +20 hours of work thing was unnecessary it's just that in my mind animals in the slaughterhouse are bigger victims of society than the poor since the poor don't necessarily get their throats slit like animals do, and even poor humans often live in better conditions than the average factory farm animal, many of whom are highly intelligent and social animals.

[tec]

Zeffolia, you are doing some outstanding work replying to thick as pigshit posts. Nice one.

[dingformung]

I think speciesism is a useful term and not silly at all. Human supremacy is solely based on a feeling of superiority towards animals justified with a biologistic rationalization which is similar to racism. I guess 100 years ago people would have laughed at terms like racism or sexism now they found their way into normal speech.

 

Imagine an alien race came to earth that is much more intelligent and technologically advanced and sensitive than humans are and started enslaving humans, eating our children and destroying our habitat and we ask them: "Don't you see how much we suffer?" and they reply: "Yeah, we don't like this part either but you lot just taste so damn good.".

 

 

Nothing wrong with killing an animal in a humane way and eating it after it had a good life but the way humans exploit non-human life is disgusting

Why is nothing wrong with it?

Maybe I was wrong.

[Soloman Tump]

https://www.motherjones.com/food/2014/07/your-almond-habit-sucking-califoirnia-dry/

 

I'd rather have some locally produced cow milk from a healthy and happy cow that is 5 miles down the road, than be contributing the the droughts / wildfires and destruction of California and have the processed almond milk flown 7000 miles across the planet.

 

I also do not mind that my eggs are pushed from the anus of a chicken and may have fecal matter on it.

Luckily I do not eat the shell and I wash my hands before and after preparing a meal, so I think I am ok.

[zkom]

https://www.motherjones.com/food/2014/07/your-almond-habit-sucking-califoirnia-dry/

 

I'd rather have some locally produced cow milk from a healthy and happy cow that is 5 miles down the road, than be contributing the the droughts / wildfires and destruction of California and have the processed almond milk flown 7000 miles across the planet.

 

I also do not mind that my eggs are pushed from the anus of a chicken and may have fecal matter on it.

Luckily I do not eat the shell and I wash my hands before and after preparing a meal, so I think I am ok.

 

Yeah, traveling now here in the third world also I think it's more ecofriendly, and possible more ethical, to eat the chicken that was just running around the yard an hour ago than some imported vegan/vegetarian alternative from a supermarket. Sorry chicken, but for the sake of the environment you're going to be sacrificed for my meal.

[Soloman Tump]

 

https://www.motherjones.com/food/2014/07/your-almond-habit-sucking-califoirnia-dry/

 

I'd rather have some locally produced cow milk from a healthy and happy cow that is 5 miles down the road, than be contributing the the droughts / wildfires and destruction of California and have the processed almond milk flown 7000 miles across the planet.

 

I also do not mind that my eggs are pushed from the anus of a chicken and may have fecal matter on it.

Luckily I do not eat the shell and I wash my hands before and after preparing a meal, so I think I am ok.

 

Yeah, traveling now here in the third world also I think it's more ecofriendly, and possible more ethical, to eat the chicken that was just running around the yard an hour ago than some imported vegan/vegetarian alternative from a supermarket. Sorry chicken, but for the sake of the environment you're going to be sacrificed for my meal.

 

 

I wasn't talking about eating the chicken, it is not common practice for humans to eat egg laying hens I believe? Just the unfertilized eggs that the hen has laid.

 

I guess the alternative is to unleash all the chickens into the wild, and let the foxes have their fill before the rest turn into roadkill

[YangYing]

gl surviving as a vegan when the big solar flare melts all of our infrastructure

 

also

I think speciesism is a useful term and not silly at all. Human supremacy is solely based on a feeling of superiority towards animals justified with a biologistic rationalization which is similar to racism. I guess 100 years ago people would have laughed at terms like racism or sexism now they found their way into normal speech.

Imagine an alien race came to earth that is much more intelligent and technologically advanced and sensitive than humans are and started enslaving humans, eating our children and destroying our habitat and we ask them: "Don't you see how much we suffer?" and they reply: "Yeah, we don't like this part either but you lot just taste so damn good."

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole thing but I do know a rebbutal to this particular idea from zizek see:

(argument starts at 36:38, central point is at 39:32)

 

so the argument as I understand it is that you cannot really draw a parallel between animals and human beings (when it comes to rights) because animals do not have the same access to agency as humans (pls correct me if I misunderstood)

 

I'm not sure if I agree with him, just thought it was a relevant point

[zkom]

 

 

https://www.motherjones.com/food/2014/07/your-almond-habit-sucking-califoirnia-dry/

 

I'd rather have some locally produced cow milk from a healthy and happy cow that is 5 miles down the road, than be contributing the the droughts / wildfires and destruction of California and have the processed almond milk flown 7000 miles across the planet.

 

I also do not mind that my eggs are pushed from the anus of a chicken and may have fecal matter on it.

Luckily I do not eat the shell and I wash my hands before and after preparing a meal, so I think I am ok.

 

Yeah, traveling now here in the third world also I think it's more ecofriendly, and possible more ethical, to eat the chicken that was just running around the yard an hour ago than some imported vegan/vegetarian alternative from a supermarket. Sorry chicken, but for the sake of the environment you're going to be sacrificed for my meal.

 

 

I wasn't talking about eating the chicken, it is not common practice for humans to eat egg laying hens I believe? Just the unfertilized eggs that the hen has laid.

 

I guess the alternative is to unleash all the chickens into the wild, and let the foxes have their fill before the rest turn into roadkill

 

 

Ok, yeah. But it works with the eggs also. If you have a chicken coop in your backyard I would say it's more environmental to eat the eggs produced in your own backyard than buy a similar packaged and imported vegan product from the supermarket. Of course you have to feed the chickens but in third world countries the livestock are basically organic garbage disposal units..

 

But I would still rather eat the chicken also than buy some imported and packaged bean/tofu/whatever product from the supermarket. It's not like there's a shortage of born chickens and in particular there's an excess of roosters because you really only can have one rooster for each coop.

 

Talking about fertilized eggs I just had a few of them recently as an appetizer..

[eugene]

lol at debating the ethics of veganism. just don't fucking hurt or kill other beings that want to live and not feel pain. is that really something that needs some in depth analysis?

[Soloman Tump]

lol at debating the ethics of veganism. just don't fucking hurt or kill other beings that want to live and not feel pain. is that really something that needs some in depth analysis?

 

Yeah ok.  We can just cause pain and suffering amongst ourselves instead, whilst continuing to damage the environment.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/why-you-should-stop-eating-avocados-immediately-mexico-environmental-damage-chemicals-a7397001.html

 

 

"I've seen fields of low-paid, often migrant workers who toil and live amid polluted water courses and pesticides"

[zkom]

lol at debating the ethics of veganism. just don't fucking hurt or kill other beings that want to live and not feel pain. is that really something that needs some in depth analysis?

 

I would say there's a lot of gray area here when it comes to animal rights vs human needs. If you think that killing animals for food is not ok even though it might be more ecological in some cases then fine. How about killing insects or parasites to prevent diseases? Is that ok? How about if the diseases caused by the said creatures didn't actually hurt humans but some other species? Would you rather kill the insect with the lower cognition than let the disease spread to a mammal?

 

If you say "ok fine, it's ok to kill insects for a survival of higher species" then how about a scenario where there's a high fatality disease spread by rats, like the black death of the olden days? Rats are pretty intelligent and probably have emotions. Would it be ok to wipe out the rat population to prevent a pandemic that would maybe kill thousands or more people?

 

I don't think the question is so simple that "just don't kill or hurt anything".

[dingformung]

lol at debating the ethics of veganism. just don't fucking hurt or kill other beings that want to live and not feel pain. is that really something that needs some in depth analysis?

Veganism doesn't really rescue animals though. The same amount of industrial life stock farming is happening with the same amount of animals killed with or without Veganism.

[Soloman Tump]

Plants have been here for millions of years before us (and will no doubt succeed us at the rate we are going). 

 

What gives us the right to intensively grow them just to chop them up and eat them?

 

Speciest Privilege, That's what.

[megapussi]

lol at debating the ethics of veganism. just don't fucking hurt or kill other beings that want to live and not feel pain. is that really something that needs some in depth analysis?

 

Simple.

 

and yeah i am sure that avocado farming pollutes and causes more suffering than the meat industry. Great argument actually. 

 

....hmm btw what do the animals eat and how is that shit is grown?  

[Limo]

Plants have been here for millions of years before us (and will no doubt succeed us at the rate we are going). 

 

What gives us the right to intensively grow them just to chop them up and eat them?

 

Speciest Privilege, That's what.

 

/ thread

 

Eating meat occasionally is our original sin. Deal with it.