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Veganism


Danny O Flannagin

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I don't consider myself vegan, but I still wouldn't knowingly consume lab-grown meat. Considering the potential costs, stem cell development would be better appropriated for medical applications I think. Far cheaper protein alternatives are abundant.

Lab grown meat has been becoming cheaper and cheaper. What if at some point it will be the a) cheaper, b) more high quality and c) morally superior option? Would you eat it?

 

I don't know that much about the process tbh. But I'm guessing it's still in a fledgling state. It wouldn't be surprising tho if it reached mass-production scale within the next few decades. In that case...maybe - assuming pumping it full of nitrates, antibiotics, and other chemicals would be unnecessary.

 

Imagine they could 3D print the structure of the meat. A perfectly marbled loin steak produced with close to zero animal cruelty for a very cheap price. I'd like that

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plants have been here for millions of years before us (and will no doubt succeed us at the rate we are going). 

 

What gives us the right to intensively grow them just to chop them up and eat them?

 

Speciest Privilege, That's what.

 

/ thread

 

Eating meat occasionally is our original sin. Deal with it.

 

but does it have to be? should we strife to change our genetics, let's say, to live off sunlight instead? so that no harm is done?

 

idunno

 

 

The transhumanist in me says yes. The realist in me says that's too far ahead in the future to speculate. The pessimist in me says the humanity has probably killed itself or regressed back to dark ages before we get that far.

 

 

"Veganism is just too far ahead in the future"

 

It's not lmao it's right here just do it and stop being a wimp.  Do you even have free will?

 

 

He said that changing human genetics to give us the ability to live off sunlight is too far ahead in the future, not veganism.

 

 

 

 

 

lol at debating the ethics of veganism. just don't fucking hurt or kill other beings that want to live and not feel pain. is that really something that needs some in depth analysis?

Veganism doesn't really rescue animals though. The same amount of industrial life stock farming is happening with the same amount of animals killed with or without Veganism.

 

This statement is patently false.  Of course your decisions have an impact, no matter how small of a percentage you are of the world population.  You are voting with your consumption and monies every day which is what keeps the systems of the world going.  Obviously markets are not 100% liquid in responding to demand, but suggesting your consumption isnt part of problems this thread is identifying is willful ignorance.

 

Im not a vegan but this is the easiest aspect to admit - that your consumption has an impact.  Thus my post on pg1 (or 2) about conscious consumption and eating less meat being at least a positive, if imperfect, step to make

 

Do you really think that even if the amount of vegans will multiply tenfold the meat industry will kill any less animals? For a real change to happen a much much larger percentage of the population will have to go vegan but this is never gonna happen in near and medium-term future.

I generally agree with the idea of an individual responsibility that has to be taken by many people to induce change for the better but in case of Veganism I don't see that it can change anything significantly even if I'd wish so. I think technological solutions like lab grown meat are more realistic than a vegan society

 

 

Do you really think if one slave owner frees their plantation it's going to have any dent on the number of slaves?  Maybe some day we can free the slaves, but it's too far off in the future and we need to be realistic.

 

 

This isn't a good comparison because if you end a slave ownership it has direct effect on the slave you set free. If you along with a small percentage of the population stop consuming meat the meat industry is not going to change their plans so there is literally zero effect.

 

Grocery stores closely keep track of sales and directly feed that information back to manufacturers.  They aren't going to intentionally buy more stock of animal products than they will sell.  A 1% increase in veganism may not result in a clean 1% decrease in production, but it will result in something years down the line once the supply chain logistically stabilizes.  It's nonsense to claim that even as people stop consuming this product the supply will just continue on forever.  You're acting so willingly powerless against the corporate behemoth.

 

This is not false but do you really think that enough people are willing to make a change? Most people don't care and don't even think about that. Tell 1.3 billion Chinese to stop eating meat. Good luck

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RE lab grown meat - apologies if ignorant but all the vegans and vegetarians I have met are vehemently against gmo everything. Wouldn't tissue engineering etc kind of go against that whole angle?

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lol at debating the ethics of veganism. just don't fucking hurt or kill other beings that want to live and not feel pain. is that really something that needs some in depth analysis?

Veganism doesn't really rescue animals though. The same amount of industrial life stock farming is happening with the same amount of animals killed with or without Veganism.
This statement is patently false.  Of course your decisions have an impact, no matter how small of a percentage you are of the world population.  You are voting with your consumption and monies every day which is what keeps the systems of the world going.  Obviously markets are not 100% liquid in responding to demand, but suggesting your consumption isnt part of problems this thread is identifying is willful ignorance.

 

Im not a vegan but this is the easiest aspect to admit - that your consumption has an impact.  Thus my post on pg1 (or 2) about conscious consumption and eating less meat being at least a positive, if imperfect, step to make

Do you really think that even if the amount of vegans will multiply tenfold the meat industry will kill any less animals? For a real change to happen a much much larger percentage of the population will have to go vegan but this is never gonna happen in near and medium-term future.

I generally agree with the idea of an individual responsibility that has to be taken by many people to induce change for the better but in case of Veganism I don't see that it can change anything significantly even if I'd wish so. I think technological solutions like lab grown meat are more realistic than a vegan society

 Do you really think if one slave owner frees their plantation it's going to have any dent on the number of slaves?  Maybe some day we can free the slaves, but it's too far off in the future and we need to be realistic.

 This isn't a good comparison because if you end a slave ownership it has direct effect on the slave you set free. If you along with a small percentage of the population stop consuming meat the meat industry is not going to change their plans so there is literally zero effect.

Your consumption has direct consequences, i hope we can at least establish this.  Your last post is literally inconsistent.  Animal industry is not some autonomous entity that sets fixed "plans".  Its a reflection of the demand for its product.  We're not saying that market is perfectly or quickly responsive but 10% less meat consumption is 10% that can potentially transfer from the negative (ethical environmental etc) effects we have been discussing to better alternatives.

 

Also on your previous response, its a different question than weighing the hypothetical net societal benefit of changing my profession to research lab meat full time.  Im trying to focus on the fact that your consumption decisions are literally the vehicle by which society functions.

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lol at debating the ethics of veganism. just don't fucking hurt or kill other beings that want to live and not feel pain. is that really something that needs some in depth analysis?

Veganism doesn't really rescue animals though. The same amount of industrial life stock farming is happening with the same amount of animals killed with or without Veganism.
This statement is patently false.  Of course your decisions have an impact, no matter how small of a percentage you are of the world population.  You are voting with your consumption and monies every day which is what keeps the systems of the world going.  Obviously markets are not 100% liquid in responding to demand, but suggesting your consumption isnt part of problems this thread is identifying is willful ignorance.

 

Im not a vegan but this is the easiest aspect to admit - that your consumption has an impact.  Thus my post on pg1 (or 2) about conscious consumption and eating less meat being at least a positive, if imperfect, step to make

Do you really think that even if the amount of vegans will multiply tenfold the meat industry will kill any less animals? For a real change to happen a much much larger percentage of the population will have to go vegan but this is never gonna happen in near and medium-term future.

I generally agree with the idea of an individual responsibility that has to be taken by many people to induce change for the better but in case of Veganism I don't see that it can change anything significantly even if I'd wish so. I think technological solutions like lab grown meat are more realistic than a vegan society

 Do you really think if one slave owner frees their plantation it's going to have any dent on the number of slaves?  Maybe some day we can free the slaves, but it's too far off in the future and we need to be realistic.

 This isn't a good comparison because if you end a slave ownership it has direct effect on the slave you set free. If you along with a small percentage of the population stop consuming meat the meat industry is not going to change their plans so there is literally zero effect.

Your consumption has direct consequences, i hope we can at least establish this.  Your last post is literally inconsistent.  Animal industry is not some autonomous entity that sets fixed "plans".  Its a reflection of the demand for its product.  We're not saying that market is perfectly or quickly responsive but 10% less meat consumption is 10% that can potentially transfer from the negative (ethical environmental etc) effects we have been discussing to better alternatives.

 

Also on your previous response, its a different question than weighing the hypothetical net societal benefit of changing my profession to research lab meat full time.  Im trying to focus on the fact that your consumption decisions are literally the vehicle by which society functions.

 

Sure, everyone's decision has an impact on the larger scale. Just a ridiculously small one. And there won't be 10% vegans in the near or mid-term future. That's just unrealistic

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Insects

 

Organic or factory farmed?

 

Great source of protein, presentation skills of dishes could do with some brushing up, but, grubs.......grubs

 

You walk into yer local supermarket & there are cheap sacks of readytowhateverthefuckyoudowithinsectswhenyoucookwiththem.

 

Do you A) run, run away, B) grab 2 large hessian sack's worth, or C) order a Matterhorn burger (aka a fuck off big one) w/fries to go from your local weird-beard burger gaff?

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gl surviving as a vegan when the big solar flare melts all of our infrastructure

also

I think speciesism is a useful term and not silly at all. Human supremacy is solely based on a feeling of superiority towards animals justified with a biologistic rationalization which is similar to racism. I guess 100 years ago people would have laughed at terms like racism or sexism now they found their way into normal speech.

Imagine an alien race came to earth that is much more intelligent and technologically advanced and sensitive than humans are and started enslaving humans, eating our children and destroying our habitat and we ask them: "Don't you see how much we suffer?" and they reply: "Yeah, we don't like this part either but you lot just taste so damn good."

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole thing but I do know a rebbutal to this particular idea from zizek see:

(argument starts at 36:38, central point is at 39:32)

so the argument as I understand it is that you cannot really draw a parallel between animals and human beings (when it comes to rights) because animals do not have the same access to agency as humans (pls correct me if I misunderstood)

I'm not sure if I agree with him, just thought it was a relevant point

 

Interesting. I think the notion of canyons and rivers having to have human rights is pretty stupid, tho

 

well yeah, but the idea is the same for animals (they are not aware of their rights either)

 

edit: or maybe they are? idunno, I'm more curious what others here think of this idea.. I'm not really that smort

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gl surviving as a vegan when the big solar flare melts all of our infrastructure

also

I think speciesism is a useful term and not silly at all. Human supremacy is solely based on a feeling of superiority towards animals justified with a biologistic rationalization which is similar to racism. I guess 100 years ago people would have laughed at terms like racism or sexism now they found their way into normal speech.

Imagine an alien race came to earth that is much more intelligent and technologically advanced and sensitive than humans are and started enslaving humans, eating our children and destroying our habitat and we ask them: "Don't you see how much we suffer?" and they reply: "Yeah, we don't like this part either but you lot just taste so damn good."

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole thing but I do know a rebbutal to this particular idea from zizek see:

(argument starts at 36:38, central point is at 39:32)

so the argument as I understand it is that you cannot really draw a parallel between animals and human beings (when it comes to rights) because animals do not have the same access to agency as humans (pls correct me if I misunderstood)

I'm not sure if I agree with him, just thought it was a relevant point

 

Interesting. I think the notion of canyons and rivers having to have human rights is pretty stupid, tho

 

well yeah, but the idea is the same for animals (they are not aware of their rights either)

 

edit: or maybe they are? idunno, I'm more curious what others here think of this idea.. I'm not really that smort

 

 

I assure you, "being aware of one's rights" is a purely human institution.

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RE lab grown meat - apologies if ignorant but all the vegans and vegetarians I have met are vehemently against gmo everything. Wouldn't tissue engineering etc kind of go against that whole angle?

every genre has its boc fans.

there is obviously a lot of new agey bullshit around veganism and all kinds of nutters gravitate around it, but at its core it's simply a ethical stance, i have nothing against gmo.

 

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Dear vegans: would you eat lab grown meat?

 

Had no responses to this one yet.....

 

 

I changed to a vegan diet for health reasons, so if meat grown in a lab could be done without the same levels of fat, cholesterol, or other bad stuff regular meat contains, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I'm probably in the minority since I think most vegans don't eat meat due to the ethical reasons being debated in this thread.

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https://www.motherjones.com/food/2014/07/your-almond-habit-sucking-califoirnia-dry/

 

I'd rather have some locally produced cow milk from a healthy and happy cow that is 5 miles down the road, than be contributing the the droughts / wildfires and destruction of California and have the processed almond milk flown 7000 miles across the planet.

 

I also do not mind that my eggs are pushed from the anus of a chicken and may have fecal matter on it.

Luckily I do not eat the shell and I wash my hands before and after preparing a meal, so I think I am ok.

The average almond weighs 1.2g

>Almonds Almond Average Nut 1.2g

 

There are 453.592 grams per pound, so 377 almonds in a pound

 

If it takes 1.1 gallons to produce one almond

Meanwhile, it takes 1.1 gallons of water to produce a single almond

 

That means it takes 414.7 gallons to produce 1 pound of almonds. Horrible right?

 

Sadly it takes about 1,800 gallons to produce one pound of beef, the number vary. But beef is significantly less efficient than almonds. And it takes about 468 gallons to produce one pound of chicken

 

https://foodtank.com/news/2013/12/why-meat-eats-resources/

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/poultrynews/36936/how-much-water-does-it-take-to-produce-meat/

90% of almonds grow in California then get shipped off across the globe.

 

Cows live globally, pretty much.

 

Agreed on your numbers though.

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RE lab grown meat - apologies if ignorant but all the vegans and vegetarians I have met are vehemently against gmo everything. Wouldn't tissue engineering etc kind of go against that whole angle?

 

Veganism has nothing to do with GMO except when it's done to animals in a cruel way.  GMO on cows to increase milk production, resulting in abnormally large udders that get infected, or on chickens that make their breasts so large they can't breathe or walk, is unethical, cruel, and anti-vegan

 

GMO on plants to increase fruit yield or protect against drought and disease is necessary for scaling plant agriculture and a great thing, a far superior option to pesticides and an excellent step to protect all aspects of the environment.  There's a risk of creating invasive species when doing this though, that's the drawback

 

Genetically engineered meat (trying to create a "meat plant") is not inherently anti-vegan unless it's engineered through processes which in the beginning harm animals, like doing animal experiments to figure out how to genetically engineer the meat.  If we get true cruelty free meat (in inception and application) it will be the greatest ethical-veganism breakthrough in recent memory.  That being said, it still won't appeal to diet-veganism assuming it's actually similar to normal meat in its unhealthiness.

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No I understand that, I just meant that any vegan or vegetarian I've met is strictly opposed to GMO, so wasn't sure if/how they'd be receptive to tissue engineering...

 

I'm conflating two separate philosophies only because all of the vegans/vegetarians I've met do so also. I'm in camp GMO=good all the way for all of the reasons you've pointed out.

 

Edit: also sorry again for being such a cunt yesterday, no excuses but alcohol turns me into a real POS (as you and usagi and p much the whole forum has pointed out). I have issues, that's not the real me. 

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Insects

 

Organic or factory farmed?

 

Great source of protein, presentation skills of dishes could do with some brushing up, but, grubs.......grubs

 

You walk into yer local supermarket & there are cheap sacks of readytowhateverthefuckyoudowithinsectswhenyoucookwiththem.

 

Do you A) run, run away, B) grab 2 large hessian sack's worth, or C) order a Matterhorn burger (aka a fuck off big one) w/fries to go from your local weird-beard burger gaff?

 

Friend of mine works as a tech at a place that processes crickets. Tried some completely unseasoned ones and they were remarkably bland. Closet thing it reminded me of was the papery inside of pistachio shells. Once they start getting cheaper and more cost effective I can see them being a staple especially for snack sized portions i.e. like nuts, jerky, etc.

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Insects

 

Organic or factory farmed?

 

Great source of protein, presentation skills of dishes could do with some brushing up, but, grubs.......grubs

 

You walk into yer local supermarket & there are cheap sacks of readytowhateverthefuckyoudowithinsectswhenyoucookwiththem.

 

Do you A) run, run away, B) grab 2 large hessian sack's worth, or C) order a Matterhorn burger (aka a fuck off big one) w/fries to go from your local weird-beard burger gaff?

 

Friend of mine works as a tech at a place that processes crickets. Tried some completely unseasoned ones and they were remarkably bland. Closet thing it reminded me of was the papery inside of pistachio shells. Once they start getting cheaper and more cost effective I can see them being a staple especially for snack sized portions i.e. like nuts, jerky, etc.

 

 

Good description RE the taste, that's how I remember them as well. What do you mean by staple though? Insects are a bit of a staple at least in Africa and parts of Asia, do you mean hitting the mainstream? For whatever reason here in Canada you can already buy cricket flour and stuff at regular grocery stores, seems to be picking up here.

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I tried these "cricket chips" about two months ago that were more or less like organic Doritos but included ground-up crickets as one of the ingredients. I remember they had an earthy flavor, but I found them agreeable overall.

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You're in the land of Cannabis Medicine, Bulk:)


 


I had to cut alcohol out except twice a year


 


a couple of beers those two times a year


 


Cannabis will save your ass


 


alcohol destroy


 


plant based


 


will bring


 


Health


 


:)


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in mexico eating chapulines (grasshoppers) is common. people arent eating them to get mad protein, its more just a salty snack while drinking or as a textural thing on tacos. quite good.

^sounds like those cricket chips might have been the same thing.  earthy taste but mild and a vehicle for whatever seasoning is put on them

 

also a related project, the artist pedro reyes made a proposal for "the grass-whopper".. a silly title but its a real product, a patty made from chapulines.  it included cost/environmental/nutritional calculation how it could offset meat production.

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^ That sounds like something I'd be willing to try. Grasshoppers and crickets are biologically related after all.

I think I remember seeing something online several years ago that insects may increase in size over time if exposed to high amounts of oxygen. Imagine that kind of scenario in the near future being implemented by some company like Monsanto as a more cost-effective alternative to existing ungulate and galliform livestock. Farms of giant crickets and grasshoppers...totally wouldn't backfire

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No I understand that, I just meant that any vegan or vegetarian I've met is strictly opposed to GMO, so wasn't sure if/how they'd be receptive to tissue engineering...

 

I'm conflating two separate philosophies only because all of the vegans/vegetarians I've met do so also. I'm in camp GMO=good all the way for all of the reasons you've pointed out.

 

Edit: also sorry again for being such a cunt yesterday, no excuses but alcohol turns me into a real POS (as you and usagi and p much the whole forum has pointed out). I have issues, that's not the real me. 

The whole evil GMO thing is over-rated. I mean the genes selected for are on generally ones for growth and changing flavor... for example making corn a little more sweet. Then again the people against GMOs probably think it changes a lot of things

 

Also, been there done that with alcohol. I've decided a few months back to stop drinking and stop smoking. I was tired of being in a bad mood all the time

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No I understand that, I just meant that any vegan or vegetarian I've met is strictly opposed to GMO, so wasn't sure if/how they'd be receptive to tissue engineering...

 

I'm conflating two separate philosophies only because all of the vegans/vegetarians I've met do so also. I'm in camp GMO=good all the way for all of the reasons you've pointed out.

 

Edit: also sorry again for being such a cunt yesterday, no excuses but alcohol turns me into a real POS (as you and usagi and p much the whole forum has pointed out). I have issues, that's not the real me. 

The whole evil GMO thing is over-rated. I mean the genes selected for are on generally ones for growth and changing flavor... for example making corn a little more sweet. Then again the people against GMOs probably think it changes a lot of things

 

Also, been there done that with alcohol. I've decided a few months back to stop drinking and stop smoking. I was tired of being in a bad mood all the time

 

 

We shouldn't mess around too much because DNA is basically code executed on the human biological computational machine, and I'm no biologist but everything I'm aware of suggests that it's extreme spaghetti code.  You can't just change genes without externalities.  But the hate against it is mostly propagated by ignorant people

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