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oh lord, this fucking guy is back

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Seems like a cool dude to me tbh :catrecline:

 

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5 minutes ago, ManjuShri said:

Seems like a cool dude to me tbh :catrecline:

 

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But he has a different opinion than me! He is a bad person

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some of their newer stuff is a little self indulgent at times, sure, but there's not a lot of it i would call structureless, or completely random.

Edited by mushroom
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15 hours ago, mushroom said:

some of their newer stuff is a little self indulgent at times, sure, but there's not a lot of it i would call structureless, or completely random.

Every art is self-indulgent.

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ok then let's imagine a sliding scale of self indulgence. on one end is say, gantz graf. taut. perfectly paced and structured. compelling. never overstays its welcome. on the other end is 9chr0 and all end.

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on the same end of this imaginary spectrum as gantz graf is any track from Draft or Untilted. that (now middle O_o) period of ae was their best imo. I love their entire catalogue and they hit a lot of the same peaks nowadays, and for sure their newest stuff is way better than their earliest stuff, but they frequently have issues with making material that remains interesting for the runtime they allot it.

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For me, the more-so "complex" albums like Draft 7.30 and Untitled takes relistens to have some tracks grow on ya. I enjoyed them the first time around, but now I love tracks like P.:NTIL and Sublimit. Even though my favorite era of Autechre was around 1994-2001, I still get a kick out of their music and how they've grown as artists. Every album has something I enjoy from it (especially Exai. Such a cool record).

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4 hours ago, mushroom said:

ok then let's imagine a sliding scale of self indulgence. on one end is say, gantz graf. taut. perfectly paced and structured. compelling. never overstays its welcome. on the other end is 9chr0 and all end.

No they're not. They just require a different type of listening. 

Why do you blame your impatience on the track?

Where on your self-indulgence-scale would be Sederunt principes by Pérotin?  Eine kleine Nachtmusik by Mozart? Movements for Orchestra by Webern? String Quartet II by Feldman?

Sorry if I'm attacking too hard on this, but I can't stand this "self indulgence" criterium against art. I often read it in reviews of Malick-movies, and just don't understand it. I think it's ridiculous.

There is the term l'art pour l'art. In art there is a place for just being what it is. It's false to criticise it with "self indulgence": to turn something aesthetical in negative, you know?

You should accept them for the experience what they are and not expect something they aren't.

For what it is, all end is perfectly paced and structured. No difference from Gantz Graf.

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4 hours ago, Chabraendeky said:

No they're not. They just require a different type of listening. 

Why do you blame your impatience on the track?

Where on your self-indulgence-scale would be Sederunt principes by Pérotin?  Eine kleine Nachtmusik by Mozart? Movements for Orchestra by Webern? String Quartet II by Feldman?

Sorry if I'm attacking too hard on this, but I can't stand this "self indulgence" criterium against art. I often read it in reviews of Malick-movies, and just don't understand it. I think it's ridiculous.

There is the term l'art pour l'art. In art there is a place for just being what it is. It's false to criticise it with "self indulgence": to turn something aesthetical in negative, you know?

You should accept them for the experience what they are and not expect something they aren't.

For what it is, all end is perfectly paced and structured. No difference from Gantz Graf.

You're certainly right that every statement about art is per se subjective -- which also means that it's perfectly alright to classify any musical work by Webern, any movie by Malick, any novel by Pynchon or Alan Moore as self-indulgent (even though in literature it's mostly synonym with "overly verbose"). What this usually implies is that the ratio between effort and effect (as experienced by the listener/spectator/reader), the narrative economy if you will, is experienced as missing the mark. I think it's a fair point to make, at least against art that in some way endeavors to entertain. It is no accident that "l'art pour l'art" is so often used as a derogatory term ... Of course, it's also perfectly alright to dismiss this as pure drivel if you feel different.

Edit: Also, despite your claim, there certainly are structural differences btw. "All End" and "Gantz Graf". The job of the critic (or anyone with a critical mindset) would be to establish what these differences are and evaluate them. To negate them, however, is hardly enlightening.

Edited by IDEM
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The only ends the tracks can be placed on for comparison are nodes of this hypercube

8-dimensional-hypercube.gif

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5 hours ago, IDEM said:

You're certainly right that every statement about art is per se subjective -- which also means that it's perfectly alright to classify any musical work by Webern, any movie by Malick, any novel by Pynchon or Alan Moore as self-indulgent (even though in literature it's mostly synonym with "overly verbose"). What this usually implies is that the ratio between effort and effect (as experienced by the listener/spectator/reader), the narrative economy if you will, is experienced as missing the mark. I think it's a fair point to make, at least against art that in some way endeavors to entertain. It is no accident that "l'art pour l'art" is so often used as a derogatory term ... Of course, it's also perfectly alright to dismiss this as pure drivel if you feel different.

Edit: Also, despite your claim, there certainly are structural differences btw. "All End" and "Gantz Graf". The job of the critic (or anyone with a critical mindset) would be to establish what these differences are and evaluate them. To negate them, however, is hardly enlightening.

I mean "narrative economy" is not an obligatory criteria for art. There is a great history in art for neglecting it completely. If that is obviously a choice of the artist to do so, it's  wrong to demand it. It's like complaining about the lack of colour by a BW movie.

I meant not that gantz and all end have the same structure, only that both have structure.

Edited by Chabraendeky
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10 hours ago, Chabraendeky said:

No they're not. They just require a different type of listening.

Why do you blame your impatience on the track?

Where on your self-indulgence-scale would be Sederunt principes by Pérotin?  Eine kleine Nachtmusik by Mozart? Movements for Orchestra by Webern? String Quartet II by Feldman?

Sorry if I'm attacking too hard on this, but I can't stand this "self indulgence" criterium against art. I often read it in reviews of Malick-movies, and just don't understand it. I think it's ridiculous.

There is the term l'art pour l'art. In art there is a place for just being what it is. It's false to criticise it with "self indulgence": to turn something aesthetical in negative, you know?

You should accept them for the experience what they are and not expect something they aren't.

For what it is, all end is perfectly paced and structured. No difference from Gantz Graf.

You say they require "a different type of listening". Attentive listening? Non-attentive? While driving? Falling asleep? While working? In a dark room? On speakers? Headphones? In a club? Taking a walk in the park? From what kind of listening standpoint should I offer criticism?

Let's step back a bit. When I said that some of Autechre's newest material -- that is, elseq and NTS -- can be self indulgent, I mean that some of it is long for the sake of wanting to have a lot of material, or to make a track seem more epic in scope, when I consider the content of their previous 10+ minute long tracks. This is as it seems to me, and it should be noted here that whether Sean and Rob actually put a lot of time and effort into all end but just kind of blagged out Gantz Graf in an hour, or vice versa, is immaterial.

If a track makes me grow impatient, then why am I not to include that in a criticism of it? Again, from what standpoint can I offer criticism? What aspects of a piece of music shall I make note of, and what shall I let pass? Or does this place for allowing a piece of art to be what it is, exclude criticism entirely? Why do I have to place it there? Is, "I really loved the sound design and rhythm of this track but the latter bit went on too long," not a valid criticism? Here, I can only speak for what I like and dislike. These are the aspects I enjoyed, and these are the aspects I did not.

all end was great when it was part of bladelores, and also when it was a part of splesh. In the form where it takes up an entire CD, I see nothing but a gimmick.

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I like turtles.

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28 minutes ago, mushroom said:

You say they require "a different type of listening". Attentive listening? Non-attentive? While driving? Falling asleep? While working? In a dark room? On speakers? Headphones? In a club? Taking a walk in the park? From what kind of listening standpoint should I offer criticism?

Let's step back a bit. When I said that some of Autechre's newest material -- that is, elseq and NTS -- can be self indulgent, I mean that some of it is long for the sake of wanting to have a lot of material, or to make a track seem more epic in scope, when I consider the content of their previous 10+ minute long tracks. This is as it seems to me, and it should be noted here that whether Sean and Rob actually put a lot of time and effort into all end but just kind of blagged out Gantz Graf in an hour, or vice versa, is immaterial.

If a track makes me grow impatient, then why am I not to include that in a criticism of it? Again, from what standpoint can I offer criticism? What aspects of a piece of music shall I make note of, and what shall I let pass? Or does this place for allowing a piece of art to be what it is, exclude criticism entirely? Why do I have to place it there? Is, "I really loved the sound design and rhythm of this track but the latter bit went on too long," not a valid criticism? Here, I can only speak for what I like and dislike. These are the aspects I enjoyed, and these are the aspects I did not.

all end was great when it was part of bladelores, and also when it was a part of splesh. In the form where it takes up an entire CD, I see nothing but a gimmick.

 

I don't know, I think the point of the NTS stuff was a big exploded version of an album. If you listen to all 4 parts as a whole, it is sequenced with the ups and downs of a regular album. If it was an 80 minute album, all end would be a 10 minute closer but as an 8 hour album, it is a 1 hour closer. Its all relative. I for one love that they are exploring longer length tracks. It may make you grow impatient but for others, it feels very right. Again, all relative. Im all for them not repeating themselves and exploring different outlets and such.

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10 hours ago, mushroom said:

 

If a track makes me grow impatient, then why am I not to include that in a criticism of it? Again, from what standpoint can I offer criticism? What aspects of a piece of music shall I make note of, and what shall I let pass? Or does this place for allowing a piece of art to be what it is, exclude criticism entirely? Why do I have to place it there? Is, "I really loved the sound design and rhythm of this track but the latter bit went on too long," not a valid criticism? Here, I can only speak for what I like and dislike. These are the aspects I enjoyed, and these are the aspects I did not.

all end was great when it was part of bladelores, and also when it was a part of splesh. In the form where it takes up an entire CD, I see nothing but a gimmick.

Okay, then say that. My criticism was only with the term "self indulgent". 

You dislike what you want.

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On 6/25/2019 at 4:17 AM, BobDobalina said:

I thought part of the story with Inacoonadavida was that there was pressure, either explicit or implied, for the release to fit in with the aesthetic of the greater Artificial Intelligence series, no?

Yes I guess, from the first page of AAA (Sean):

Quote

what we have more of tho is stuff from between LF and Incunabula (mostly stuff Warp didn't want for Incunabula cos it didn't fit the AI theme or whatever)

Edited by th555

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