2020 US Election

[auxien]

2 hours ago, Candiru said:

Bernie really fucked us by running in 2016, and especially by running again in 2020. While I agree with a lot of his rhetoric, he’s an old fogie with no accomplishments, no allies in the senate, and no realistic path for his agenda. Like Trump, he’s a populist telling people what they want to hear, and no way to deliver.

Unfortunately, right wing populism beats left wing populism every time, so he was only ever a spoiler candidate. As much as people love him, all he ever did was help Trump get elected twice and ensure we get nothing close to his agenda. 

yup.

[ignatius]

2 hours ago, Candiru said:

Bernie really fucked us by running in 2016, and especially by running again in 2020. While I agree with a lot of his rhetoric, he’s an old fogie with no accomplishments, no allies in the senate, and no realistic path for his agenda. Like Trump, he’s a populist telling people what they want to hear, and no way to deliver.

Unfortunately, right wing populism beats left wing populism every time, so he was only ever a spoiler candidate. As much as people love him, all he ever did was help Trump get elected twice and ensure we get nothing close to his agenda. 

the electoral college really fucked us by existing in 2016. Clinton won by 3 million votes but that damn electoral college didn't care.. but of course if Clinton had even campaigned in Wisconsin and Michigan maybe she could've won over that damn electoral. college. 

 

srsly.. there's plenty of blame everywhere. something like 70,000 votes gave. trump the election. the DNC fucked up, Russia dabbled and in some cases more than dabbled in election interference but. trump had the most well organized on line facebook campaign to date. his campaign guy went to facebook and said "tell us everything" about ads and reaching voters.. they had a place set up and facebook employees were embedded there to help trump's people run their on line show. 

facebook went to Clinton's people and said "hey, do you want to set up something similar?" and they said "No thanks" 

so, imo dumping all the blame in any one place is wrong. 

[Brisbot]

This time around the main thing about my attitude that is different is that whether or not Bernie wins the nomination, we must suck it up and vote for the Dem nominee.  Even if the nominee constantly eye rolls at our base and ignores us as Hillary did while trying to appeal to conservatives by the right pivot by promising stupid things such as revealing the existence of aliens. At least the Dem nominee won't get rid of Obamacare.

35 minutes ago, auxien said:

yup.

yeah, the conservative democrats had nothing to do with it. It was the crazy liberals yeeeeaaah. Why didn't they just plan things perfectly and wait until 2030 to become a thing when they would have a much higher chance of winning? So their fault. They should have just voted for the Green party.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Brisbot

[Candiru]

Let's put it this way, taking back the House in the 2018 midterms by gaining 40 seats was not done by going further to the left. As discouraging as that may be, it was really important to just win. It was done by running candidates that were most likely to win their local elections. If Bernie is polling lower than a moderate Dem candidate in swing states Hillary lost in 2016, why would you want him to be the nominee if he's already set up to lose? Because The DNC was unfair to him? I can see why the DNC doesn't like him now.  

[auxien]

17 minutes ago, Brisbot said:

yeah, the conservative democrats had nothing to do with it. It was the crazy liberals yeeeeaaah. Why didn't they just plan things perfectly and wait until 2030 to become a thing when they would have a much higher chance of winning? So their fault. They should have just voted for the Green party.

don't think Candiru or anyone else said 'conservative democrats had nothing to do with it'. Bernie 'spoiling' the dem primaries/party wasn't/isn't the only problem, Clinton wasn't a good nominee for starters. but Sanders (who, for the thousandth time, isn't even a fucking Democrat) running in for the nomination from the Democratic party has not helped the party. the Democratic party needs help, and Bernie so far seems to have only damaged it.

i'm not a Democrat nor do i think they're running a very good party tbh, but they're the ones closest to my personal take on most issues, so 9 times out of 10 i vote for them. 

57 minutes ago, ignatius said:

the electoral college really fucked us by existing in 2016. Clinton won by 3 million votes but that damn electoral college didn't care.. but of course if Clinton had even campaigned in Wisconsin and Michigan maybe she could've won over that damn electoral. college. 

so, imo dumping all the blame in any one place is wrong. 

electoral college has been there, it was a known quantity and concern, and Clinton's team didn't handle it correctly.

there's PLENTY of blame to go around. Bernie shares some of it.

[ignatius]

17 minutes ago, auxien said:

don't think Candiru or anyone else said 'conservative democrats had nothing to do with it'. Bernie 'spoiling' the dem primaries/party wasn't/isn't the only problem, Clinton wasn't a good nominee for starters. but Sanders (who, for the thousandth time, isn't even a fucking Democrat) running in for the nomination from the Democratic party has not helped the party. the Democratic party needs help, and Bernie so far seems to have only damaged it.

i'm not a Democrat nor do i think they're running a very good party tbh, but they're the ones closest to my personal take on most issues, so 9 times out of 10 i vote for them. 

electoral college has been there, it was a known quantity and concern, and Clinton's team didn't handle it correctly.

there's PLENTY of blame to go around. Bernie shares some of it.

I was being a touch sarcastic about the electoral college. 

also, some people think we shouldn't have a two party system but it's the only way for candidates to be taken seriously or something. regardless, Bernie. was a legitimate candidate. the DNC fucked up and probably didn't need to. Hillary was going to win the nomination regardless of their shenanigans.  Russia. changed voter rolls in some places. swapped people's first/last names and stuff so when they showed up to vote they couldn't because name no matchy.  among. other things.. lot's of shit could've been done differently, better etc.. pretty sure Bernie came out and. said "don't vote for the orange man" in 2016. a bunch of Bernie or die people just stayed home in some places but I don't think those places mattered.  it really was Wisconsin, Michigan that made a difference. there were some shenanigans there also. 

I think trump was inevitable in some ways.. if not him then someone like him.

that Chomsky video up there as usual from Chomsky,  rings. true. 

re: suck it up and. vote for whoever opposes trump.. yes. obviously.i don't get people who spitefully stayed home in 2016 instead of voting for Clinton.  at a minimum she wouldn't have put kids in cages. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by ignatius

[Brisbot]

The voters decide what a party is. Each party has changed many times and have never had this solid definition of what they stand for. The politicians who are popular are symptoms of where America is mentally and it is currently undergoing a major transition.

The Republican party was fundamentally changed by Trump supporters. Republicans like Mitt Romney can argue until their face is blue that true Republicans don't act like Trump does and have honor. But the reality is that Mitt is now from a different era as Trump has basically taken over the party. Trump IS the Republican party now. Imagine if Trump ran as another conservative party instead of as a Republican. That would be incredibly foolish of him.

The same thing must happen with Democrats. There is no way we will see a three or four party America in our lifetimes, so if we want to see change we have to take over the Democratic party. What it means to be Democrat must change if there is going to be change. Otherwise it's a complete waste of time voting for anyone but the conservative/centrist/"Jordan Peterson classical liberal" whatever you wanna call it Democrat. Because if a party could only ever be defined as this rigid thing, nothing would change.

And if no one pushes for someone like Bernie, it's not going to happen. The Green Party will not win in our lifetimes. I'm a democrat who supports Bernie.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Brisbot

[Candiru]

They have to change their messaging on a national level, and really sell these policy ideas as a way to rebuild the middle class, and give the working class more opportunities. Without saying socialism or previously supporting socialist juntas. Both Trump and Bernie supporters both agree on elites rigging the system against them, they just have different branding. Use that in your favor. Run on Trump's plans to cut social security. Also, they need to stay away from intersectionality/identity politics, because sooner or later, everyone gets involved(impoverished rural white people living in opiate hellholes hearing about White Privilege = voting for Trump, can't say I blame them), and quite a few people realize it's a tool of the managerial class designed to keep people from getting on the same page. The idea of open borders is similar, a goal shared by the campus kids (who somehow also think we can have medicare for all if we do this) and the Libertarian Right who just wants to take advantage of cheap labor.  

[zlemflolia]

14 minutes ago, Brisbot said:

The voters decide what a party is. Each party has changed many times and have never had this solid definition of what they stand for. The politicians who are popular are symptoms of where America is mentally and it is currently undergoing a major transition.

The Republican party was fundamentally changed by Trump supporters. Republicans like Mitt Romney can argue until their face is blue that true Republicans don't act like Trump does and have honor. But the reality is that Mitt is now from a different era as Trump has basically taken over the party. Trump IS the Republican party now. Imagine if Trump ran as another conservative party instead of as a Republican. That would be incredibly foolish of him.

The same thing must happen with Democrats. There is no way we will see a three or four party America in our lifetimes, so if we want to see change we have to take over the Democratic party. What it means to be Democrat must change if there is going to be change. Otherwise it's a complete waste of time voting for anyone but the conservative/centrist/"Jordan Peterson classical liberal" whatever you wanna call it Democrat. Because if a party could only ever be defined as this rigid thing, nothing would change.

And if no one pushes for someone like Bernie, it's not going to happen. The Green Party will not win in our lifetimes. I'm a democrat who supports Bernie.

This pretty much sums it up.  Defining the Democratic party as the DNC is really defining the will of the left in the US as being defined by the rules an independent organization decides upon.  If the DNC takes the nomination away from Bernie when he wins a clear plurality of votes, they are essentially a hostile organization enacting a coup upon the Democratic party.  Because the Democratic party is what the people want it to be.  Otherwise we have to have a revolution within the Democratic party and overthrow the DNC itself through simply forcing in candidates like Bernie, the only one who isn't a reactionary capitalist, and the only one who so far actually matches the will of the most energized masses of the country.

[dingformung]

6 hours ago, ignatius said:

that Chomsky video up there as usual from Chomsky,  rings. true. 

Yeah, it was an answer to auxien about calling the GOP "one of the most dangerous organisations". I hope he watched the video and changed his opinion from incorrect to correct.

[auxien]

2 hours ago, darreichungsform said:

Yeah, it was an answer to auxien about calling the GOP "one of the most dangerous organisations". I hope he watched the video and changed his opinion from incorrect to correct.

i did watch it, it was boring because it didn't say a damned thing anyone who's been paying attention didn't already see as plainly obvious for decades. most of his argument was blaming both political parties, then pivoting at the end to say 'and this is why Republicans are the worst' (which they are) but the first half of his argument didn't directly support the second. then at the end he makes that ludicrous claim that Rs are one of the most dangerous organizations in the world because...they 'support' climate change and nuclear war/military budget (Rs and Ds are not far from each other when it comes to support of the insane military budget).... so most of his argument is ACTUALLY that both politcal parties are shit, but the Rs are slightly worse because of their slowrolling issues related to climate change. which is much closer to a valid assessment of facts (even tho this is not his conclusion is for some reason).... but all that means is that America is a 'dangerous organization'. no argument from me here on that. every American, despite who they vote for or don't vote for, shares the blame equally. sorry. and his final 'there's nothing that's been as dangerous to the species, ever' is ...um, okay. way to go off the deep end there with your argument. denial of climate change is serious, very serious, very dangerous, very very bad. but the Republican party isn't the cause of it, nor are they solely to blame for America's current contribution to it (that blame goes to Americans, all of us, our habits, etc.).

tl;dr if you wanna claim America is world-class bad, go for it. but saying everything in America that is bad or just the things that America does that are bad is because of the Republican Party alone is fucking ludicrous and shows bias, stupidity, or maybe just simple ignorance. 

now if you wanna claim Trump is currently making things demonstrably worse independent of the greater country's will, and with the support of the Republican elites and voters, i'll listen to that. could Trump be leading the Republicans towards what Chomsky is claiming? perhaps, but that requires a more time and more slide towards a vague dictatorship that's currently happening. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by auxien

[dingformung]

Well, I didn't watch it so I can't say anything about it, but thanks for the summary.

 

[auxien]

6 minutes ago, darreichungsform said:

Well, I didn't watch it so I can't say anything about it, but thanks for the summary.

any time

[dr lopez]

thoughts and prayers for auxien rn

[zlemflolia]

bernie's unstoppable, nevada in the bag, hes going to win every state on super tuesday. 

[auxien]

35 minutes ago, dr lopez said:

thoughts and prayers for auxien rn

why

i generally like Bernie. would rather him than half the others, and certainly would rather him than Trump

^i'd still rather Warren tho.

that said, this shit definitely still aint over. Bernie's definitely in a better position after tonight but when you're running in the Dem primary and your two most powerful supporters are Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump, well, gotta start looking sideways at some things. not sure most people are smart enough for that tbh

Edited February 23, 2020 by auxien

[dr lopez]

lol @ putin

[dingformung]

This post right there again shows that you simply can't reason with angry Warren bros like auxien.

[ambermonk]

You actually buy into that bullshit Russia narrative with Bernie that MSNBC is pushing? Hahahahahahahaha

It's only because he's killin' it in NV. They're getting desperate.

[auxien]

12 minutes ago, dr lopez said:

lol @ putin

 

11 minutes ago, ambergonk said:

You actually buy into that bullshit Russia narrative with Bernie that MSNBC is pushing? Hahahahahahahaha

It's only because he's killin' it in NV. They're getting desperate.

y'all think US intelligence agencies privately telling Sanders' campaign about attempted Russian interference a month ago is an MSNBC narrative? y'all really are as bad as Trump's MAGAists at this point. not to mention it happened to some extent in 2016 as well. let's just ignore reality guys, okay.

Edited February 23, 2020 by auxien

[dingformung]

What is so far-fetched about Russia supporting the candidate that promotes the foreign policy that they imagine benefits them most? Isn't that basically what secret services are for? Pretty normal and not scandalous. Bernie pushes for more peaceful foreign relations and it makes sense that the Russians imagine that it might help them if he is president. After Trump their second choice, I imagine

[dr lopez]

yeah the results of all the primary/caucuses so far tell a completely different story from general internet conversation. if you never saw the results and you lived on twitter you would think warren was neck and neck with bernard. but the truth is he appeals to ALLLLLL the people the warren fans WISH she appealed to. They live in cult-of-personality denial. I don't give a shit about bernie's personality, how smart he is, how much of a wonk he is etc etc .. things warren-stans say about her. i care that he connects with workers who are disadvantaged by providing clear goals, not wonky details. amazing how her team didn't understand this. really funny too.

[dingformung]

1 minute ago, auxien said:

 

y'all think US intelligence agencies privately telling Sanders' campaign about attempted Russian interference a month ago is an MSNBC narrative? y'all really are as bad as Trump's MAGAists at this point. not to mention it happened to some extent in 2016 as well. let's just ignore reality guys, okay.

I hate to say that I agree with you here

[Brisbot]

yeeeah my boi Bernie gettin 'dem. W's.
 

 

[auxien]

2 minutes ago, dr lopez said:

yeah the results of all the primary/caucuses so far tell a completely different story from general internet conversation. 

Twitter is whatever you want to see, just like the rest of the world. i don't see any Warren supporters nor Warren herself saying a single bad word about Sanders, or really anyone except Bloomberg. what i've seen has also been lots of Bernie support and some amount of Berniebro bullshit.