2020 US Election

[caze]

Just now, dingformung said:

Democratic Socialism has more to do with Communism than with Social Democracy? We must live on different planets.

Democratic Socialism is anti-free market, socially owned means of production; Social Democracy is free market capitalism with a beefy social welfare system and progressive taxation.

[auxien]

27 minutes ago, caze said:

America in general has not articulated these distinctions well at all. 'Liberal' no longer refers to actual Liberalism, it means left-wing social democracy. Bernie didn't help by calling himself a Democratic Socialist, which does have more in common with Communism than Social Democracy (if you want to own the means of production you're a commie, basically), and Social Democracy was more in line with what his actual platform was (what Americans mistakenly refer to as liberal).

Americans in general seem to have a poor understanding of these ideological categories, and the politics of other nations and their relations to such categories

- hence the common misconception that all of Europe is Socialist and that Scandinavian countries in particular are some kind of socialist utopia (this is a misconception from the left and the right), in many ways European countries are more free market oriented.

honestly, and i'm speculating but i don't think i'm exaggerating here, most Americans who vote these days are too under-educated/willfully stupid to understand those distinctions between more complex party systems than just Democrat or Republican. it's been trending for decades toward a more lifestyle/social choice rather than just policy choices...the dumbing down of a generation or two is pretty clear here imo.

i've got a little bit of hope for the gen z/millennial crowd getting to voting age now (as in many of them are actually going to vote now that they're getting older, not just at 18 years old of course, young people dont vote lol), it feels like they're a little more aware and closer to being able to critically think...and the generation behind them (whatever that's called), i'm really hoping for some changes over the next couple decades.

[dingformung]

16 minutes ago, caze said:

Democratic Socialism is anti-free market, socially owned means of production; Social Democracy is free market capitalism with a beefy social welfare system and progressive taxation.

We could ping-pong about this for hours, I guess. Let's just say that both models are pretty far away from a money free and domination free society like you would have in communism. "Socialism" and "Communism" have become somewhat toxic terms, because of a) American anti-socialist/anti-communist propaganda and b) self-identification with socialism and communism of regimes like the Soviet Union or China (which in fact are/were the opposite of either). Thinkers like Marx would have hated the Soviet Union and seen it as a fascist autocracy that only branded itself with that term.

The problem with "free market" is that a lot of politicians seem to think that the market becomes freer the more you deregulate it, while the opposite is the case.

 

[Hi Guys]

I think honestly trump got most of his non die hard votes from people that fell for the right’s scare tactic that anything democrat leads to communism. And I don’t get why or how they are so successful at making that totally stupid argument. Nobody thinks we are headed towards communism? Really?

[Nebraska]

patriot distraught over election results in Georgia. its now time to die for big T

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[Hi Guys]

Just now, Nebraska said:

patriot distraught over election results in Georgia. its now time to die for big T
 

 

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Limbaugh should volunteer for caller

[dingformung]

10 minutes ago, auxien said:

millennial crowd getting to voting age now

Millenials are born in the 80s till late 90s, so they have been in voting age for a couple of years. The oldest millenials are 40 now, the youngest twenty something.

[caze]

 

 

[Hi Guys]

1 hour ago, caze said:

 hence the common misconception that all of Europe is Socialist and that Scandinavian countries in particular are some kind of socialist utopia (this is a misconception from the left and the right), in many ways European countries are more free market oriented.

I will say I don’t think I ever viewed them as a “socialist utopia” but there’s a reason they’re generally at or near the top of the “happiest countries” lists. Really it’s kind of a broader “why can’t America have healthcare and a social safety net, vacation time, maternal and paternal time etc on these levels” with the developed countries that can and do this stuff

[Brisbot]

 

1 hour ago, Upset man said:

I think sanders really failed us in not more clearly distinguishing the difference between the argument the republicans made (socialism = communism) and the reality of what democratic socialism is and I’ll never understand why he they etc didn’t pursue clarity. 

 Everytime Sanders got an interview on a liberal media network CNN it was full of gotcha questions and also misleading questions, so liberals who just keep up with the large networks are going to think the dude is socialist. Seems like every time I talk about Bernie with a liberal in their 40s and up, they are convinced the guy is a socialist.

And then after Bernie loses they LOVE to have him on to bring over us crazy communist liberals. In 2016 ( and maybe 2020 idk I stopped paying attention) he got more screentime at the larger media networks when he was endorsing Hillary. 

All of that leads to obfuscation. No wonder when the primary comes around people are hooked into different narratives, and it's more than just the liberal or conservative narrative. There are like.. 8.

HOWEVER as some people have pointed out, Sanders should have said he was a social democrat. Not a democratic socialist. I think he chose the latter because it had 'democrat' first. Big mistake.

[caze]

 

 

[caze]

2 minutes ago, Brisbot said:

HOWEVER as some people have pointed out, Sanders should have said he was a social democrat. Not a democratic socialist. I think he chose the latter because it had 'democrat' first. Big mistake.

Sanders actually is a Democratic Socialist though, it's just that he knows that nobody is going to nationalize the US economy any time soon, so his policy platform ended up being a solidly Social Democratic one (a less economically sensible and further left version of what Biden was proposing). So when he says that he's a Democratic Socialist he's being truthful, it's just that he sees it more of a transition from first getting a more Social Democratic system in place, and then transitioning even further left after that.

[Hugh Mughnus]

2 minutes ago, caze said:

 

 

Lol their incompetence really knows no bounds. It’s like a Charlie Chaplin silent film, a bunch of morons running around. 

[may be rude]

1 hour ago, Upset man said:

I think honestly trump got most of his non die hard votes from people that fell for the right’s scare tactic that anything democrat leads to communism. And I don’t get why or how they are so successful at making that totally stupid argument. Nobody thinks we are headed towards communism? Really?

i think i need to repeat this more:

if you repeat something enough, people believe it

this is a statistically proven phenomenon. it's also a persuasion/suggestion/hypnosis technique. trump learned this kind of manipulation from stone, who may have read some books. trump has been actively utilizing hypnotic language on the masses for years. simple language, repetition, soothing cadences. he's like a shitty, dark wizard.

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by very honest

[may be rude]

"no collusion," "fake news," "it's a hoax," "witch hunt," "russia, russia, russia," "crooked hillary." it's not an accident that he repeated these primitive messages, ad infinitum. that is deliberate hypnotic suggestion, and it worked. he learned it from stone, who made his living with exactly that kind of deceptive pr branding. 

it's actually a tell. when trump is earnestly repeating one of these boiled-down suggestions, you know he is consciously scheming for some purpose.

and now, "it was rigged," "there was voter fraud," "they stole the election." remember that trump was deploying this messaging before the election, while he was in a position and had time to do something, if there actually were an election fraud in play, but he didn't. he was just interested in sewing the message. he was doing this just about every single day of october, in place of campaign messages! why?

Edited November 20, 2020 by very honest

[dingformung]

41 minutes ago, caze said:

Sanders actually is a Democratic Socialist though, it's just that he knows that nobody is going to nationalize the US economy any time soon, so his policy platform ended up being a solidly Social Democratic one (a less economically sensible and further left version of what Biden was proposing). So when he says that he's a Democratic Socialist he's being truthful, it's just that he sees it more of a transition from first getting a more Social Democratic system in place, and then transitioning even further left after that.

What makes you think that he secretly wants to nationalise the entire the economy?

Sure, parts of the economy should be socialised, such as healthcare, the prison system, public transport, etc. (or at least it makes sense to do that) but that's about it. He didn't ever propose that the government should take control over private companies (like in China), as far as I know.

If anything, under him the governmental influence on certain parts of the economy, such as the tracking and surveillance business, would have decreased. The Silicon Valley is largely financed by the US government and most of the tech giants have military people in their directorate as of now. He would have denationalised this part of the economy again as it should be (also, it has nothing to do with "free markets" if a super power pushes a couple of companies and gives them advantages on the world market by using all their influence).

[Cryptowen]

scenario where trump team somehow manages to overturn election results in the eyes of the law: shitload of ppl go crazy, because this would be seen as clear proof that a totalatarian dictator had taken over the USA

scenario where trump concedes: shitload of ppl go crazy because this would be clear proof that the globalists are calling the shots & are about to use The Great Reset to make you start eatin bugs & shit

honestly i'm glad mother nature is about to dump six months of "literally chill the fuck out" on us, i'm not ready for civil war

[ignatius]

ed norton's take. didn't know his dad was a federal prosecutor

 

 

 

[Brisbot]

13 hours ago, Cryptowen said:

The problem is that I feel like there are shitloads of ppl on the right who would echo that exact sentiment, except replace "fascism" with "globalism/the NWO" and "Trump" with "Biden/Harris". Increasingly it feels like both sides are inhabiting distinct realities in which their side is the voice of the people & the other side represents a demonic force that wants to instill tyranny (not advocating for horseshoe theory here or suggesting that some vague "every side has its flaws" stance is the way to go here, just noting that there does seem to increasingly be a total breakdown of communication between the poles)

For me it's just mostly about where the overton window is, and how difficult it is to move to the left. In 2016 it was definitely more to the left. Now in 2020, after 4 years of constant propaganda from both sides and fighting in and between "both" sides, it is to the right. There are like twice as many alternate  narratives now than there was 4 years ago. Both parties have done an excellent job of obfuscating the truth. I'm not sure how much is deliberate from the democrats, or if it is just something that is occuring since democrats have had not much to do besides react to what the party of Trump is doing.

Trump has successfully shifted politics to the right. I have no clue how it can go back to the left either when you have a hollow democratic party who's best attribute is that they aren't Trump. Goal 1 is to find a way to get rid of all of the fake news narratives, and then worry about more progressive policies. But it's hard when the centrist dems also have gotten into telling half-truths and not picking their battles right when Trump does something stupid. They ended up complaining about everything, which led Trump supporters to come up with the "Orange Man Bad" meme.

In 2016 the election was about electing a more populist candidate than the typical Republican or Democratic candidate, and the two 'populists' were Trump and Bernie. Though Trump was a pretend populist because he realized back then that's what the people want and where the wind was blowing, and he really was nothing like Bernie putting their policies side by side. But they were still both populists. But that was the narrative. That's when Bernie should have been elected if he were ever going to. Even with a senate and congress against him. It was the best time.

Now in 2020 the USA is in full backpedal mode. This election was solely about getting Trump out of office. That's it. Actually caring about policy was mostly irrelevant. That's just the simple truth.

I am not sure what 2024 will hold. I have a feeling it will still be similar to the 2020 election. Regardless we need to be more strategic about it depending on who is running and their chances of becoming president.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Brisbot

[hijexx]

Sounds like Trump got trolled by the Michigan legislators that he summoned. They showed up with a letter asking for more stimulus and said their elections were fine.

[ignatius]

17 minutes ago, hijexx said:

Sounds like Trump got trolled by the Michigan legislators that he summoned. They showed up with a letter asking for more stimulus and said their elections were fine.

awesome. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/politics/michigan-house-speaker-will-meet-trump/index.html

The leaders said they also talked about Covid-19 relief with the President, and delivered a letter requesting more federal funds to fight the pandemic. They also said that they had accepted Trump's invitation to the White House meeting "as we would accept an invitation from any sitting President if asked to meet at the White House."

[Nebraska]

If President Trump comes out and says: ‘Guys, I have irrefutable proof of fraud, the courts won’t listen, and I’m now calling on Americans to take up arms,’ we would go

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-fraud-insight-idUSKBN2801D4

not sure why big T isn't giving the order. patriots around the country are waiting for orders

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[may be rude]

friendly PSA that the dems want to pass the MORE act - Marijuana Opportunity, Reinvestment and Expungement Act. They can probably get it through the house but may have trouble in the senate. winning the 2 GEORGIA seats that are up in the january run-off could help.

in 2022, many GOP senate seats are up, and the dems have a good shot to take the senate. here is the wiki page listing the senate seats that are up in 2022.

the MORE act was sponsored by KAMALA HARRIS. the dems have the house and white house. if they take the senate in 2022, or this january, then we can all grow plants. now is the time to start working so that we can freely smoke in the free world, in our lifetime. god bless america

 

 

Quote

"[The MORE Act] will likely pass the House on partisan lines because the Democratic party has promoted criminal and cannabis reform. It will not likely garner any traction in the Senate, also for partisan reasons that the majority of Republican Senators are against cannabis reform," he said.

https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cannabis/20/09/17476193/the-more-act-wont-pass-congress-but-cannabis-insiders-say-thats-ok-for-now

Edited November 21, 2020 by very honest

[luke viia]

1 hour ago, Nebraska said:

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-fraud-insight-idUSKBN2801D4

not sure why big T isn't giving the order. patriots around the country are waiting for orders

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sweet fancy abraham that article is full of frighteningly all american malarkey.

“There’s millions and millions of Trump votes that were just thrown out,” said Hedrick, 70, a retired teacher and librarian. “That computer was throwing them out.”

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“If I’m being manipulated by Trump ... then he is the greatest con man that ever lived in America,” Caleb Fryar said. “I think he’s the greatest patriot that ever lived.”

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In Sundown, Texas, Mayor (emphasis viia's) Jonathan Strickland said there’s “no way in hell” Biden won fairly. The only way he’ll believe it, he said, is if Trump himself says so.

“Trump is the only one we’ve been able to trust for the last four years,” said Strickland, an oilfield production engineer. “As far as the civil war goes, I don’t think it’s off the table.”

[ignatius]

"booger side out"