2020 US Election

[zlemflolia]

4 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Good lord. so if you're in the top 1% of the rest of the world, you're oppressed? Here's the deal - beyond some basic human rights, you're not owed anything. Not having a swimming pool doesn't make you oppressed. Breathing shitty air doesn't make you oppressed.

try to walk into a store if you're hungry and take a sandwich and walk out and eat it

you'll be handcuffed to protect the property rights of the 1%

9 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

The topic is democratic socialism you utter bellend. Also, the vast majority of workers I've ever met should be nowhere near controlling the means of production.

democratic socialism means to most the implement of socialism through democracy.  socialism is worker control of the means of production.  and ok, that's your judgment of those workers you've met, and it's anecdotal

[dingformung]

12 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Good lord. so if you're in the top 1% of the rest of the world, you're oppressed? Here's the deal - beyond some basic human rights, you're not owed anything. Not having a swimming pool doesn't make you oppressed. Breathing shitty air doesn't make you oppressed.

But being systematically manipulated, brainwashed with a neo-liberal doctrine and utilized as work force is oppression. There are worse forms of it, sure. I really dislike the "you're not owed anything" stance. Individuals have to devote their whole existence to working for capitalist elites while at the same time they "aren't owed anything"? That's too simple. We live in a society ya know

Edited February 24, 2020 by darreichungsform

[goDel]

Dear god...

Don't know where to begin. Euhm....the human race is fucked!?

 

[BCM]

Zeffolia, are you like 15?

[dingformung]

It's immature to like socialism. Grow up and become a conservative, Zeff

[BCM]

not what I'm saying though is it?

[dingformung]

I do admit that it's not exactly what you were saying, yes

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, darreichungsform said:

We live in a society ya know

Right, which is where the whole thing about basic human rights I mentioned comes from. Beyond that, nah not really you know? Oppression is cruel, malicious, and unjust treatment, over a long period of time. Having to work a 9-5 behind an office desk is not any of those things. 

[dingformung]

2 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Right, which is where the whole thing about basic human rights I mentioned comes from. Beyond that, nah not really you know? Oppression is cruel, malicious, and unjust treatment, over a long period of time. Having to work a 9-5 behind an office desk is not any of those things. 

But I find it more entertaining to call it oppression... Kinda wears out the meaning of the word, which is bad, but... ya know

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, Zeffolia said:

try to walk into a store if you're hungry and take a sandwich and walk out and eat it

you'll be handcuffed to protect the property rights of the 1%

democratic socialism means to most the implement of socialism through democracy.  socialism is worker control of the means of production.  and ok, that's your judgment of those workers you've met, and it's anecdotal

Except the vast majority of restaurants/stores are not owned by the 1%. You’ll be handcuffed to protect the property rights of society. If you’re hungry and broke, there are numerous options in most of the urban centres in Canada and America to get free food, in both the immediate term and longer term. It’s not as easy as it should be, certainly but there are options.  

I always understood democratic socialism to  be equivalent to social democracy, however I do see that they are defined distinctly. In which case my admiration for Sanders has decreased somewhat. Markets (well-regulated) are a far better means of distributing goods and services than worker control over the same. 

[dingformung]

2 hours ago, chenGOD said:

 If you’re hungry and broke, there are numerous options in most of the urban centres in Canada and America to get free food, in both the immediate term and longer term. It’s not as easy as it should be, certainly but there are options.  

But why create poverty in the first place?

The US and Canada are rich and could pay every citizen an unconditional basic income. It would create a framework in which people aren't driven by an existential fear of becoming poor and marginalized.

Edited February 24, 2020 by darreichungsform

[BCM]

how would you propose to pay for a basic income for everybody of working age in the US?

how much would it be?

let's do some quick sums:

there are approximately 210 million people of working age in the US.

let's give them all a modest basic income of say, $1000 per month/$12k per year. not enough to really be useful or do anything with, better yourself, buy a house, save anything etc. but maybe just enough so you don't starve.

12,000 x 210,000,000 = 2,520,000,000,000.

let's call it $2.5 trillion dollars per year.

just how would this ever be achieved? even at half that amount ($500 per month basic income) it's still well over a trillion dollars per year.

this is what i'm getting at when i ask if someone is 15 etc - there needs to be some rationality here. just coming up with ideas that sound good but have zero basis in reality, (and are based on emotion) isn't going to help anything.

i actually do agree that at some point in the future, we will hopefully do away with money and capitalism and maybe live in an enlightened society based on different driving factors and different measures of being successful. that is hundreds, if not thousands of years away though and would hinge on very star trek-esque technology being invented to free humans from "work" and make money and capital obsolete.

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, darreichungsform said:

But why create poverty in the first place?

The US and Canada are rich and could pay every citizen an unconditional basic income. It would create a framework in which people aren't driven by an existential fear of becoming poor and marginalized.

Nobody is out there creating poverty (unless you’re a minority in one of those places, then god help you-note, some sarcasm there), there is limitless opportunity for us in these countries. Especially as a white dude, which I assume is 95% of this board. 

[dingformung]

14 minutes ago, BCM said:

how would you propose to pay for a basic income for everybody of working age in the US?

how much would it be?

let's do some quick sums:

there are approximately 210 million people of working age in the US.

let's give them all a modest basic income of say, $1000 per month/$12k per year. not enough to really be useful or do anything with, better yourself, buy a house, save anything etc. but maybe just enough so you don't starve.

12,000 x 210,000,000 = 2,520,000,000,000.

let's call it $2.5 trillion dollars per year.

just how would this ever be achieved? even at half that amount ($500 per month basic income) it's still well over a trillion dollars per year.

this is what i'm getting at when i ask if someone is 15 etc - there needs to be some rationality here. just coming up with ideas that sound good but have zero basis in reality, (and are based on emotion) isn't going to help anything.

i actually do agree that at some point in the future, we will hopefully do away with money and capitalism and maybe live in an enlightened society based on different driving factors and different measures of being successful. that is hundreds, if not thousands of years away though and would hinge on very star trek-esque technology being invented to free humans from "work" and make money and capital obsolete.

Well, then thanks for responding genuinely and taking the idea seriously.

A basic income could be financed through a financial transaction tax. It was calculated that in Switzerland a financial transaction tax of 0.3% would be enough to pay every Swiss citizen 2000 Swiss franks (that's roughly 2000 US dollars) a month. Of course, Switzerland is different and very rich, in a country like the US the transaction tax would have to be higher. Let's just say 3%. It would mean that anytime you move money around (transfer or withdraw) 3% would be taken away. You withdraw 100 dollar from the ATM and it would charge you 3 dollars. This tax would target the finance economy and high-frequency stock trading because that's where all the money is. There is much more money floating around in the finance economy than there is in the real economy so it would be totally wrong and probably impossible to finance it through higher income tax.

Yes, I'm aware that the US is far away from implementing such a model but I still think it's important to have and express these ideas.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by darreichungsform

[dingformung]

2 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Nobody is out there creating poverty (unless you’re a minority in one of those places, then god help you-note, some sarcasm there), there is limitless opportunity for us in these countries. Especially as a white dude, which I assume is 95% of this board. 

I think there are structural redistribution mechanisms that justify phrasing it that way

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, darreichungsform said:

I think there are structural redistribution mechanisms that justify phrasing it that way

Please, elucidate.

[dingformung]

25 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Please, elucidate.

There are many examples of redistribution mechanisms from the bottom to the top. In the US one would be the exploitation of sickness through the pharma industry, especially in combination with the health insurance situation in that country

Edited February 24, 2020 by darreichungsform
prepositions

[J3FF3R00]

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by J3FF3R00

[dr lopez]

i respect nebraska for just bein horny on main at all times

[chenGOD]

17 minutes ago, darreichungsform said:

There are many examples of redistribution mechanisms from the bottom to the top. In the US one would be the exploitation of sickness through the pharma industry, especially in combination with the health insurance situation in that country

Redistribution == creating poverty?

I ain't gonna fuck with that logic. I will totally agree though that the US is particularly fucked in executing its social compact.

If they want to fix it, getting back on topic, I don't know that fracturing the democratic party is the way to go, based on what happened in the UK.

[dingformung]

4 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Redistribution == creating poverty?

Redistribution can mean creating poverty, yes.

[auxien]

How Does the World View the 2020 Democratic Primary These Days?

[YangYing]

1 minute ago, auxien said:

How Does the World View the 2020 Democratic Primary These Days?

makes me loose faith in democracy

[dingformung]

8 minutes ago, auxien said:

How Does the World View the 2020 Democratic Primary These Days?

Following up the tradition of me spamming this thread with slightly off-topic and/or troll-y remarks I'm gonna go ahead and say: Well done US, you finally got at least 2 politicians that aren't right-wingers. Sanders & Warren. I have huge hope that either gets picked as the nominee and ultimately wins the election. Fuck Trump.

Edited February 24, 2020 by darreichungsform
wait a sec, this wasn't even off topic

[ignatius]

There are many examples of redistribution mechanisms from the bottom to the top. In the US one would be the exploitation of sickness through the pharma industry, especially in combination with the health insurance situation in that country

For a few decades wealth has gone to the top and wages have been flat for most everyone else. While simultaneously cutting services, not spending on infrastructure, cutting Medicare etc and pay for very expensive wars.

So, bottom up is exactly what’s happened and is still happening. Trumps budget proposal makes it even worse. Cutting further into Medicare and social security. Also all kinds of smaller programs like free school lunches for poor kids.

Shit, Reagan was the first to pay for tax cuts to wealthy by taxing social security. The first time that was ever done.

All those tax cuts have to come from somewhere. Usual it’s cuts to things for middle class and poor people plus adding to the deficit which will get paid down later (or never) most likely by the middle class through taxes and cuts