2020 US Election

[zero]

25 minutes ago, trying to be less rude said:

he's literally a simpsons character. 

which has always been one of the main problems with him. do we take him seriously? or is he just putting on an act, a stand up show, which he does to stroke his ego and get $ out of all this. even the Jan. 6th thing started as something of a joke, like some sort of maga festival in front of the capitol with dudes in costumes selling hot dogs...and of course escalated into the shit show it became, thanks to the inmates deciding to run the asylum, so to speak.

that's why I have a hard time comparing him to a much more by-the-book totalitarian/authoritarian leader like Hitler, because I really don't think that's what trump intended on becoming...or turning this place into a Nazi state. any authoritarian inklings that started being tossed around throughout his term more or less started taking shape solely due to his massive ego, and adoration for Putin, etc. and other leaders that actually DO want to rule their countries like kings. trump only continued on down this path because backing off of it would make him look weak, his fan base kept egging him on, and so forth.

bottom line - I don't think there's enough gas in the tank to complete some sort of massive government overthrow, as has been alluded to. even if those dickwads who stormed the capitol did kill Pelosi, Pence, or other heinous acts, there wasn't enough planning laid out as to what to do next. yes I know I've seen images from the event that made it look like some of those militia guys had it all mapped out, but IMO this is like some duck dynasty scooby-doo shit planning. taking hostages resulting in a stand-off with the military? how do you think that would pan out. they'd all be scoped out of existence.

[may be rude]

4 hours ago, zero said:

which has always been one of the main problems with him. do we take him seriously? or is he just putting on an act, a stand up show, which he does to stroke his ego and get $ out of all this.

cash-grabbing is a big part of his equation. he raised more with stop-the-steal than he did for the election campaign, i think

 

4 hours ago, zero said:

even the Jan. 6th thing started as something of a joke, like some sort of maga festival in front of the capitol with dudes in costumes selling hot dogs...and of course escalated into the shit show it became, thanks to the inmates deciding to run the asylum, so to speak.

here we differ. more will come out on this, both from doj and from the house committee, over the coming year. but i will say that doj has already charged multiple participants with conspiracy to disrupt the congressional proceeding. and there are likely to be more similar or worse charges.

 

4 hours ago, zero said:

that's why I have a hard time comparing him to a much more by-the-book totalitarian/authoritarian leader like Hitler, because I really don't think that's what trump intended on becoming...or turning this place into a Nazi state.

i didn't believe timothy snyder, the yale historian who specializes on authoritarianism, in 2016 when he sounded the alarm that trump was an authoritarian. but he saw the checklist checked. assault the press, question election legitimacy, pander to prejudice, stoke political violence, announce intent to prosecute political opponents, etc. anyway, as the years went on, i became convinced that there was something dark lurking in that dude. we know he was compromised. he was compromised as soon as he lied about ongoing business dealings with russia. that's kompromat, the russians knowing he lied about that. he was compromised again when his team hid the trump tower meeting with russians about russian state assistance to the trump campaign. they hid that for a year. kushner, jr and manafort were at the meeting, you think trump didn't know? they lied on their background checks, it wasn't revealed until a year later. that's another thing that could be lorded over him. that's how intel develops agents. incrementally compromise them more and more. 

 

4 hours ago, zero said:

I don't think there's enough gas in the tank to complete some sort of massive government overthrow, as has been alluded to.

trump support has gone up since january 6th! polling shows around half of republicans take the big lie seriously. this is a profound threat to american democracy. 

 

4 hours ago, zero said:

even if those dickwads who stormed the capitol did kill Pelosi, Pence, or other heinous acts, there wasn't enough planning laid out as to what to do next.

it's interesting because in a coup, the military is a major player. the pentagon was very concerned about the prospects of trump using the military in his attempts to stay in power. he requested the national guard deployed in DC for jan 6, in the days leading up to it. the DC national guard has 1 commander and that commander is directly commanded only by the president. there were multiple plans. see: the eastman memo, the clark letter, and the meadows powerpoint. the meadows powerpoint suggested declaring a national emergency. the military slow-walked the deployment of the guard on january 6th, because they feared how it could be used. multiple plans were being tossed around, in trump camp, about how to stay in power, despite the state-certified election results. it looks like one very concerning plan, which may have ended up being their best hope, was to indefinitely delay the certification. it seems that we came very close to an emergency being declared and the guard being deployed and the certification being put on hold. then there were several plans in motion by which to claim various states' electors were bad, and to, in some cases by threat, get states to produce alternate electors.

 

it was a full-on coup attempt. more will be coming out. but there's already enough to call it.

Edited January 6, 2022 by trying to be less rude

[zero]

^ idk man...I just have a hard time believing there was an actual coherent plan in place as to what to do next after storming the capitol. and all those other tentacles shooting out in all directions to try and keep him in power just seemed so desperate, unfocused, and with next to zero chance of becoming reality. throw anything at the wall to see if it sticks type planning. that's how his whole presidency sorta was lol.

this is largely IMO of course, and based on reading articles online, so maybe there was some overarching game plan strategy that will be brought to light. and yeah, I've never actually thought long and hard about how coup's of this nature are supposed to happen exactly, so maybe it does start with the maga clowns being sent in, and then things go down hill from there. like you said, military overthrow is usually what one thinks when the word coup it used, and this was of a different flavor than that.

 

[may be rude]

29 minutes ago, zero said:

^ idk man...I just have a hard time believing there was an actual coherent plan in place as to what to do next after storming the capitol. and all those other tentacles shooting out in all directions to try and keep him in power just seemed so desperate, unfocused, and with next to zero chance of becoming reality. throw anything at the wall to see if it sticks type planning. that's how his whole presidency sorta was lol.

this is largely IMO of course, and based on reading articles online, so maybe there was some overarching game plan strategy that will be brought to light. and yeah, I've never actually thought long and hard about how coup's of this nature are supposed to happen exactly, so maybe it does start with the maga clowns being sent in, and then things go down hill from there. like you said, military overthrow is usually what one thinks when the word coup it used, and this was of a different flavor than that.

 

a big part is the pence pressure campaign. the eastman memo goes over it, and it's well-verified. pence had to publish a letter on the morning of jan 6 saying he would not go along with it. then trump sicked the mob on him.

 

pence doing what trump wanted, and discounting certain states, would have been a constitutional crisis all by itself. and think of how sycophantic pence was! we're lucky he didn't.

 

the crowd was invited by trump weeks in advance. qanon circles had been priming attendees with a "storm the capitol" mantra. many were dopes, as you describe. within the crowd of dopes were many who were armed with not only mace and stun guns but also firearms, which are banned in dc. 2 pipe bombs were left at dnc headquarters and rnc headquarters in dc.

 

not only was pence being pressured and threatened, so were congress. trump could have called off the mob at any point, but he didn't, for more than 2 hours. people from all sides were begging him. it would have taken a tweet.

 

militias had caches of weapons stored across the river in a hotel as part of quick response team. bannon was informing his podcast audience the day before that they were approaching the objective and that things would happen fast. oath keepers were with roger stone that morning and later at the capitol. 

 

i'm not saying they were all trying a coup. many were victims of deception and pawns. but it was part of a coup attempt. there were plans, there were conspirators, there were intents to thwart the transfer of power, including by threat, violence, and corrupt use of doj. textbook coup stuff, even without the military.

 

it will be very interesting to see what doj and the house committee lay out.

 

thanks for hearing me out.

Edited January 6, 2022 by trying to be less rude

[joshuatxuk]

@trying to be less rude @zero - I don't consider it a "coup" as I don't want to conflate that with the actual technical and historical term. Ironically the conservative and establishment elements of the Pentagon and Federal government in general were key to preventing Trump from attempting one.

This was very much an attack and attempt a violent revolution / overthrow. It's a miracle of timing, key decisions but admirable staffers, legislators and certain cops that prevented Democrat legislators from being outright apprehended or killed. The absolutely frightening aspect of all of this is a sizeable minority of people in this country have either downplayed the event or applauded it outright. One of the two major parties and their supporters in the public, media, and government office are complicit to it being encouraged. 

Bear in mind this storming occurred without the mob being organized and armed with guns. While there is evidence of collusion and insider tip offs the extent of support from key figures in elected office, LE, and the military could have easily been far greater. Summer of 2020 and Jan. 6th, 2021 are sort of a slow-burn version of 9/11 in terms of sea change and confused yet alarming preview of things to come. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by joshuatxuk

[zero]

29 minutes ago, joshuatxuk said:

The absolutely frightening aspect of all of this is a sizeable minority of people in this country have either downplayed the event or applauded it outright. One of the two major parties and their supporters in the public, media, and government office are complicit to it being encouraged. 

the fact that all these R politicians are trying to downplay and defend the event is sickening. it is a sad reflection on the state of society in general. traits that have historically applied to those in positions of leadership, and humans in general, such as showing accountability, leading with dignity, humbleness...these are slowly being written out of the script and replaced with trump-like behavior. finger pointing, immaturity, messaging with racist undertones. tantrums are being rewarded, wasn't my fault, etc...I just don't know how we reign this in? the R party seemingly will not disavow this type of behavior, seeing as large chunks of their constituents all act and think the same way, and vote accordingly!

social media, as has been brought up time and time again on here, IMO is the catalyst for this behavioral change we see throughout society. lol culture. creating and weaponizing false information posted online, resulting in people doubting straight up facts, was probably not what the social media godfathers intended. but it is what it is now, and whether or not them banning certain bad actors and deleting outright false content helps, is yet to be seen. gonna sound like an old man here, but I just don't remember "it" being this bad before FB, twitter, etc. started. 

[EdamAnchorman]

32 minutes ago, zero said:

the fact that all these R politicians are trying to downplay and defend the event is sickening. it is a sad reflection on the state of society in general. traits that have historically applied to those in positions of leadership, and humans in general, such as showing accountability, leading with dignity, humbleness...these are slowly being written out of the script and replaced with trump-like behavior. finger pointing, immaturity, messaging with racist undertones. tantrums are being rewarded, wasn't my fault, etc...I just don't know how we reign this in? the R party seemingly will not disavow this type of behavior, seeing as large chunks of their constituents all act and think the same way, and vote accordingly!

social media, as has been brought up time and time again on here, IMO is the catalyst for this behavioral change we see throughout society. lol culture. creating and weaponizing false information posted online, resulting in people doubting straight up facts, was probably not what the social media godfathers intended. but it is what it is now, and whether or not them banning certain bad actors and deleting outright false content helps, is yet to be seen. gonna sound like an old man here, but I just don't remember "it" being this bad before FB, twitter, etc. started. 

This shift in traits displayed by leadership is certainly sickening, but it us up to us to stop it.

These morons who are supporting Trump didn't just appear out of nowhere, they've been living in our neighborhoods all along.  It is my read on the situation that they haven't participated in politics in the past for whatever reason (anti-gov., lack of trust in gov., general apathy, etc.).  But Trump and his ilk have awakened them, and the internet and social media have allowed them to coalesce and organize and have a somewhat common and deafening voice.

In the US, leaders are elected by the people who participate in government, and often who participate the loudest.  These morons have come out of the woodwork and have solidified themselves as a powerful voting bloc.  It's no wonder there are leaders who are catering to them.  The only way to beat them in the short term is for all of us reasonable people to stand up and participate in government and try to be "louder" than they are.  We can't be quiet.  Demand that our leaders be reasonable.  Long term, I dunno, maybe implement critical thinking education at young ages.

[luke viia]

Honestly, more people like the concerned folks in this thread need to be running for office. I know, I know, it's a clown show. But who else is gonna do it, if not us? More crusty old folks? If gun-toting moon-faced racist tradwives can gather political steam, so can vinyl-hoarding, p-locking, lol-rolling big brains. 

[ignatius]

some people were definitely there to kidnap and kill someone. other people along for the ride.. but it was a coup attempt. probably not that last. 

2022 will be a backend coup or soft coup via state houses overturning election results if needed. likely the republicans will sweep back into power in the house/senate w/big wins. 

the left in congress need to wake up.. these people don't care if the left takes the high road.. they don't care how they're "remembered by history".. they don't fucking care. they take power and do whatever the fuck they want while they have it. the left seems to not understand this though it's been this way since the 1990s

[EdamAnchorman]

24 minutes ago, luke viia said:

Honestly, more people like the concerned folks in this thread need to be running for office. I know, I know, it's a clown show. But who else is gonna do it, if not us? More crusty old folks? If gun-toting moon-faced racist tradwives can gather political steam, so can vinyl-hoarding, p-locking, lol-rolling big brains. 

The media has to change, too.  I was watching some congressman being interviewed by NBC (left-leaning show).  He was something like the only R member of the house to be openly critical of Trump or something. He was making valid criticisms of the left and right and saying stuff like we need to get back to civil discourse in Congress instead of escalating, but the host was just hammering him to try and get him to say bad things about Trump and the right in general so that they could get a juicy soundbite.

Edited January 6, 2022 by randomsummer

[zlemflolia]

2 hours ago, randomsummer said:

The media has to change, too.  I was watching some congressman being interviewed by NBC (left-leaning show).  He was something like the only R member of the house to be openly critical of Trump or something. He was making valid criticisms of the left and right and saying stuff like we need to get back to civil discourse in Congress instead of escalating, but the host was just hammering him to try and get him to say bad things about Trump and the right in general so that they could get a juicy soundbite.

NBC is a far right capitalist network, there are no left-leaning shows on it

[usagi]

 

[ignatius]

we've crossed all the streams

[zlemflolia]

1 hour ago, usagi said:

 

an eclectic mixture of many extremely important facts outside mainstream reporting and the public consciousness, combined with batshit insane nonsense, all used to prop up an obfuscated fascist worldview using different vocabularies and topics from what historical fascists use to reach the same flawed conclusions.  the inevitable result of what happens when you take the US education system and add the internet on top of it then give it to people as their only escape from the drudgery of a miserable reality of wage slavery

[usagi]

I'm just disappointed Andrew couldn't get him to buss a quick freestyle yano.

[Rubin Farr]

That shit show Cyber Ninjas had to fire everyone and shut down from the torrent of lawsuits and fines.

[EdamAnchorman]

11 hours ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

NBC is a far right capitalist network, there are no left-leaning shows on it

Ok, tovarishch, while you're not wrong from a global standpoint I meant left-leaning for the US or Democratic party-leaning, but I think you already knew that and were just being a troll.  Imagine that.

Edited January 7, 2022 by randomsummer

[Nebraska]

right wingers are in a jam. while trump tries his best to distance himself from jan 6th, most right wingers have taken the leap to convincing themselves it didn't happen. fox realized this when they called biden's win, but congress hasn't caught up because they were the target.

enter tucker carlson: he noticed ted cruz acknowledging jan 6th in congress and gave him a call to appear on his show. ted, innocently assumed it's more "talking points" he has to repeat, but tucker seems adamant he explain himself. ted doesn't seem to understand why tucker is doing this and keeps repeating his chestnut that he was taken out of context, but tucker isn't buying none of it

ted

[cern]

Is there any proof that Trump ordered strictly to people to storm Capitolium??

 

[Nebraska]

4 minutes ago, cern said:

Is there any proof that Trump ordered strictly to people to storm Capitolium??

yes there is.

[zlemflolia]

5 hours ago, randomsummer said:

Ok, tovarishch, while you're not wrong from a global standpoint I meant left-leaning for the US or Democratic party-leaning, but I think you already knew that and were just being a troll.  Imagine that.

I wasn't being a troll I was stating a fact.  America is detached from reality and statements made as if they're true and normal just because they're in a US context should be fact-checked.  The democratic party of the US is also far right

Edited January 7, 2022 by ilqx hermolia xpli

[may be rude]

1 hour ago, cern said:

Is there any proof that Trump ordered strictly to people to storm Capitolium??

 

he didn't say "go crime" but once they were in, he refused to tell them to leave until hours later, after the cops had beat them back anyway. literally everyone was begging him for hours to ask them to leave, but he wouldn't. he was watching on tv, rewinding and rewatching, excited. so, this demonstrates the intent that he wanted it. he's a master of hiding behind strategically vague wording. the people interpretted that this is what he wanted, and he knew that, but he was careful not to say it explicitly.

 

 

hiding behind ambiguous wording helps people get away with things sometimes but not all the time. plenty of mob bosses who thought they were insulated by never stating the criminal things explicitly, nevertheless, go to prison.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by trying to be less rude

[exitonly]

As the president of the united states, he told everyone for months that the election had been stolen, that our democracy was coming to an end and that stopping the certification of the votes was the last possible thing we could do to save the United States.  If you yell fire in a crowded theater and people get trampled, you will be held responsible. I don’t see how this is any different, regardless of the exact phrasing that was used that day.

[EdamAnchorman]

1 hour ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

I wasn't being a troll I was stating a fact.  America is detached from reality and statements made as if they're true and normal just because they're in a US context should be fact-checked.  The democratic party of the US is also far right

America is not detached from reality, there is just a different standard here compared to the European standard.  Is that OK for you?  Sure in America as a whole, the "center" of politics is probably far more conservative compared to Europe, but within the American political landscape, NBC is more "left-leaning" compared to our center.  Dunno how many times I have to say that.

Edited January 7, 2022 by randomsummer

[zlemflolia]

19 minutes ago, randomsummer said:

America is not detached from reality, there is just a different standard here compared to the European standard.  Is that OK for you?  Sure in America as a whole, the "center" of politics is probably far more conservative compared to Europe, but within the American political landscape, NBC is more "left-leaning" compared to our center.  Dunno how many times I have to say that.

I'm just not going to sit by and have people call mainstream media in the US "left-leaning" when it's all far-right.  I will correct them