[New BEHRINGER Products]

[d-a-m-o]

[TubularCorporation]

On 11/25/2019 at 3:45 AM, thawkins said:

If it's copying the design and not giving anything back to the original creators, the Behringer clone should go fuck off to the dumpster where it belongs.

It's one thing if a small boutique shop makes a DIY clone of some Moog that is otherwise lots €€€, but Behringer is a huge company that just decided to take other companies R&D, copy that and push out their own cheap thing.

Maybe I am being unfair here, but then I don't see any announcement of a licensing deal.

To be fair, the Jasper is an almost exact clone of the original Wasp Deluxe with a few component changes and a layout designed to make it more DIY friendly, and the VCA hold mod is something that I think was somewhat common to do to original Wasps, so it's not like Behringer copying the position of one switch is exactly a big deal.

 

As far as the original Wasp, I don't think Chris Hugget cares much at this point with all the stuff he's designed since (the Novation Supernova, the operating systems for almost all the classic 90s Akai samplers,the SL series controllers, etc.).

In principle I agree with you, I just don't think this particular clone or even Behringer as a company are uniquely bad.

 

IT'S THE SYSTEM, MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN

 

(it is)

 

 

EDIT: their Moog clones kind of bug me because Moog is actually an employee owned company but even then it's complicated because they aren't cloning current production products, they're selling their stuff to very different markets, and IP law is so broken anyway it's hard to have a consistent stance on anything related to it.

Edited November 26, 2019 by TubularCorporation

[thawkins]

IP law is messed up, but on the other hand so much of the world runs on open source software, but it's rare that the companies who benefit from it give anything substantial back in return.

Public domain designs is the same thing, Behringer seems just to benefit from a lot. On the other hand, I doubt there is much significant R&D done in any big name brand these days. Elektron seems to be the most innovative hardware developer, the others mostly refining the old designs. Most of the cutting edge action is probably happening in some Max patches and - I guess - also Eurorack. I hope this means that future cool stuff will trickle down into "regular" hardware from the modular/livecoding scene.

[TubularCorporation]

Seems like there's a whole lot o cool, innovative desktop synths being made by small companies/individuals these days, really, but a lot of them are a bit on the expensive side for me (I can get or build one fancy thing every year or two plus the occasional cheap old pedal in between)

[Limo]

A lot of open source is paid for by big companies like IBM, Google and now, gasp, Microsoft.

Not the desktop stuff, though. That’s a handful of foundations and some driven amateurs.

Shame that never took off.

As for innovation in Eurorack: I hear this quite often, but what I see is mostly combinations of tried and true concepts being thrown at walls at a dizzying rate hoping some of them will stick.

Or public domain circuits using bog standard - and very cheap - components being sold for a premium because “analog”.

[thawkins]

1 hour ago, rhmilo said:

A lot of open source is paid for by big companies like IBM, Google and now, gasp, Microsoft.

Not the desktop stuff, though. That’s a handful of foundations and some driven amateurs.

Shame that never took off.

As for innovation in Eurorack: I hear this quite often, but what I see is mostly combinations of tried and true concepts being thrown at walls at a dizzying rate hoping some of them will stick.

Or public domain circuits using bog standard - and very cheap - components being sold for a premium because “analog”.

I think Eurorack will end up feeding something back eventually. Like everyone seems to have the Mutable Instruments Braids in their rack, so I expect popular modules like that to end up back in "regular" hardware synths somehow.

As for open source, it simultaneously seems like a really great time and a total desert - companies who make good open source software struggle to make ends meet and you get this ridiculous growth/monetization at all costs bullshit. The only way to survive seems to be either get bought-funded by a big corp like Google, at which point by definition you are not boosting the open source ecosystem but rather the narrow financial interests of your patron. And if you're not lucky, big corp will just erase you by way of copying your product internally and then releasing it, destroying your market.

 

Ok, I'll stop derailing the Uliexpress thread...

[modey]

13 minutes ago, thawkins said:

Like everyone seems to have the Mutable Instruments Braids in their rack, so I expect popular modules like that to end up back in "regular" hardware synths somehow.

Already happening! See Microfreak and *logue examples..

[TubularCorporation]

5 hours ago, rhmilo said:

A lot of open source is paid for by big companies like IBM, Google and now, gasp, Microsoft.

Not the desktop stuff, though. That’s a handful of foundations and some driven amateurs.

Shame that never took off.

As for innovation in Eurorack: I hear this quite often, but what I see is mostly combinations of tried and true concepts being thrown at walls at a dizzying rate hoping some of them will stick.

Or public domain circuits using bog standard - and very cheap - components being sold for a premium because “analog”.

Open source is tricky, people forget that Open Source was actually started by a splinter group from the Free Software Foundation who wanted to soften Free Software to make it monetizable. The whole thing thawkins is talking about above, with open source companies selling out to major software companies?  Being able to do that is actually the main reason the Open source people split off from the Free Software people. Not that Open source is a bad thing but it's a complicated thing that has problems.

Edited November 27, 2019 by TubularCorporation

[qualitycontrol]

This video is about guitar pedals (behringer) but he does an interesting bit at the beginning about how massive and all encompassing it all is.

 

 

[YEK]

 

 

This is a lot of fun. 

[thawkins]

lol

[auxien]

lol

[sheatheman]

My first lol from that meme template. I think it’s one of the worst memes of all time. 

[andrd]

lol

[splesh]

The thing that's great about these Behringer knockoffs of classic synths is they are affordable to the common person who might not have lots of money to spend on gear.

[Silent Member]

4 hours ago, thawkins said:

lol

lol

[donquixote]

my facebook feed is so full of 303 noises right now. it's like the 90s acid revival all over again but like a shit social media version. 

[TubularCorporation]

5 hours ago, draft said:

The thing that's great about these Behringer knockoffs of classic synths is they are affordable to the common person who might not have lots of money to spend on gear.

Yeah, personally I'm fine with it since most of the companies they're knocking off haven't done anything like this themselves in decades (and Moog isn't exactly aiming at the same market as Behringer, plus they discontinued their Model D reissue a while ago), they always add some extra features, and it's not like the eurorack/boutique market hasn't been knocking this stuff off for a couple decades already. I've said it before, but I think clones like this are better done by bigger companies that can take advantage of economies of scale to bring the prices down, and smaller companies are best positioned to do more forward thinking, risky gear that a bigger company would never bring to market for all sorts of reasons.

[Limo]

Dunno. These clones remind me of cheap Chinese truffles: much more affordable than the expensive Italians one, so now everyone with a little bit of disposable income can put them on their pasta. Only trouble is they’re not actually the same thing. They don’t taste anywhere near as good. Maybe it would’ve been better to just get some truffle oil (which is made with an oil industry byproduct) and leave it at that.

[thawkins]

11 hours ago, TubularCorporation said:

Yeah, personally I'm fine with it since most of the companies they're knocking off haven't done anything like this themselves in decades (and Moog isn't exactly aiming at the same market as Behringer, plus they discontinued their Model D reissue a while ago), they always add some extra features, and it's not like the eurorack/boutique market hasn't been knocking this stuff off for a couple decades already. I've said it before, but I think clones like this are better done by bigger companies that can take advantage of economies of scale to bring the prices down, and smaller companies are best positioned to do more forward thinking, risky gear that a bigger company would never bring to market for all sorts of reasons.

The bad thing about this is that the small company actually taking the R&D hit and the risk of bringing a new product will get fuck all, while Uliexpress makes millions off something they actually did not invent.

Sure, legally it's probably fine as the stuff is not patented and nobody is making the things anymore (because the original company went bankrupt due to production costs too high etc.), but that's just the unfairness of the system as a whole.

[TubularCorporation]

But all the stuff they're cloning was made by big, successful companies (mostly(decades ago. I mean don't get me wrong, I have no illusions about any company the size of Behringer being a particularly good thing, I just don't think the IP argument is the main problem and I don't think Behringer is unique in this. No ethical consumption under capitalism and all that.

 

 

EDIT: I'd forgotten about the Behringer Crave, which is kind of the exception - that's really pushing it a bit given that they're almost exactly cloning one of the most (relatively) inexpensive, recent products from a company that, for all of its own sort of issues with becoming a bit of a lifestyle brand, is still an employee owned company, so it's not like they're cloning something Roland abandoned decades ago or even a cheap version of something that Moog sells for the cost of a used car (unless you're pickier about you used cars than any of my friends have ever been) - they'redirectly undercutting probably the most popular current Moog product, and that's a pretty dick move even by corporate standards.

 

 

Not that I've bought anything new from either company or anything (except a $50 Behringer mini mixer that I needed for a couple of shows and then traded away in a matter of months because it sounded pretty bad).

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by TubularCorporation

[YEK]

Thinking about picking up a behringer

It's my first synth. I don't know synthesis and I don't know how to do the patch cable thing 

 

Which one should I get?

Edit: I want something dirty sounding and i like that aphex used to use the ms20.

At the moment in my music I've been sampling my rs7000 so i want something analog to balance it out.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by yekker

[marf]

they are also making a synthi clone

[TubularCorporation]

7 hours ago, yekker said:

Thinking about picking up a behringer

It's my first synth. I don't know synthesis and I don't know how to do the patch cable thing 

 

Which one should I get?

Edit: I want something dirty sounding and i like that aphex used to use the ms20.

At the moment in my music I've been sampling my rs7000 so i want something analog to balance it out.

 

If you can justify the const and don't WANT to get in to patching, I'd say get an Odyssey. Arps sound great and all the demos I've heard of it are comparable to the half broken, vintage v3 Odyssey the drummer in a friend's band used to have.

 

EDIT: if you DO want to get into patching hold out for their 2600.

 

Arps all day.

Edited December 13, 2019 by TubularCorporation

[YEK]

15 hours ago, TubularCorporation said:

If you can justify the const and don't WANT to get in to patching, I'd say get an Odyssey. Arps sound great and all the demos I've heard of it are comparable to the half broken, vintage v3 Odyssey the drummer in a friend's band used to have.

 

EDIT: if you DO want to get into patching hold out for their 2600.

 

Arps all day.

I could do arps on my rs7000 and send to my synths