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3 hours ago, BoomTssPhace said:

Idk about that actually, it seems they've put a lot of r&d into production.

pretty much any company is going to put R&D into a product, but the intent and passion will differentiate the ultimate outcome. Uli doing threads on Gearslutz aren’t about his passion for an instrument, it’s just market research so ultimately what he sells is as cheap as possible while ticking the boxes necessary. 

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Ok, I mean there are a lot of possibilities here.  Let's have a think about a couple.. Scenario 1. On Wednesday on an obscure internet message board you make a post about buying a behringer

I don’t care if he “has a Jewish surname”. What, we can’t make fun of him because he may or may not be a Jew? Tell him to fucking man up. Not every insult is derived from what he identifies as - somet

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22 hours ago, Stickfigger said:

WATMM Crowd: Boo, Booo!

Uli: Are they booing me?

71468174665346: No, they are saying , Booringer

 

.... anyway, not sure if this was posted yet?

 

 

read somewhere that this uses s-trig instead of regular gates. so if you want to use it w/anything other than actual moog modular you need to buy behringer's s-trig -> gate converter. 

perhaps they thought people who own a $20,000 moog modular would expand their systems w/this so they better make it compatible. or maybe ditching s-trig and making the modules work w/gates required too much actual engineering ?

the behringer arp 2600 clone looks decent.. format is smaller and it has both filters. i've zero interest in any of their clones though. hopefully all this low cost gear makes it into the hands of young kids who get savage w/it and learn synthesis. i wonder how much of it is built to last? behringer is gonna do what behringer does. no use getting upset about it. 

 

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16 hours ago, auxien said:

the problem is that Behringer aren’t doing anything for the love of music or musicians or trying to innovate the tools those people are using, it’s that they’re trying to just make money and that’s it. they don’t give a fuck, it’s pure commodity. 

No shit, it's a business! How entitled do you need to be to think that a manufacturer should be doing it 'for the art'. Christ almighty. How many good manufacturers have we lost because the didn't know how to run a business?

I hope these companies continue to make money by offering me commodities that want to purchase.

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13 hours ago, auxien said:

pretty much any company is going to put R&D into a product, but the intent and passion will differentiate the ultimate outcome. Uli doing threads on Gearslutz aren’t about his passion for an instrument, it’s just market research so ultimately what he sells is as cheap as possible while ticking the boxes necessary. 

Exactly how does passion present its self in the development of electrical circuits? I've never had one of my designs refused because it 'lacked passion'.

To give you an analogy, the man who designs the ECU for Fords (a mass market product) is likely just as passionate about his job as the guy who does it for Ferrari (the bespoke sector). But more over, the company who are committing to building tens of thousands of these units are doing so at a greater risk as their out lay is greater and their confidence in design and manufacturing quality must be higher.

I am stunned that any company is committed to reproducing iconic instruments (and actually, forcing a lot of the industry to do so) is so looked down upon. Lots of snobbery here I think. Makes me think that the original manufacturers should have got off their ass and done it themselves.

We need more pragmatism in this industry, less of the pseudo science

Edited by 714681746476436
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1 hour ago, 714681746476436 said:

 

Exactly how does passion present its self in the development of electrical circuits? I've never had one of my designs refused because it 'lacked passion'.

To give you an analogy, the man who designs the ECU for Fords (a mass market product) is likely just as passionate about his job as the guy who does it for Ferrari (the bespoke sector). But more over, the company who are committing to building tens of thousands of these units are doing so at a greater risk as their out lay is greater and their confidence in design and manufacturing quality must be higher.

I am stunned that any company is committed to reproducing iconic instruments (and actually, forcing a lot of the industry to do so) is so looked down upon. Lots of snobbery here I think. Makes me think that the original manufacturers should have got off their ass and done it themselves.

We need more pragmatism in this industry, less of the pseudo science

100% agree with this.  They’re selling that 303 for £130-ish, and the reason they can sell it so cheap is because they’ve had to do no research on the circuit, it’s a tried, tested and abused circuit.  They’ll sell tons of these.  If they were charging £600 for this I’d feel different, but £130?  Bargain.

I’ve made most of my own synths because I enjoy building stuff, the one thing I bought so far was a Waldorf Streichfett because there’s no way I could do a poly synth for that cheap.  This falls squarely into that same bracket.

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Pragmatism went out the window when Richard declared that the smell of vintage analogue makes you make better music 

Edited by chim
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6 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

No shit, it's a business! How entitled do you need to be to think that a manufacturer should be doing it 'for the art'. Christ almighty. How many good manufacturers have we lost because the didn't know how to run a business?

I hope these companies continue to make money by offering me commodities that want to purchase.

calling me entitled is making it pretty obvious you’re reading more into what i wrote than what is actually on your screen.

it’s about balance, B are trying to be Walmart of the synthesizer world. not illegal or even wrong, just capitalism. i don’t like it, but that’s my opinion. we’re allowed to have those and discuss them here, chill out my dude.

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6 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

 

Exactly how does passion present its self in the development of electrical circuits? I've never had one of my designs refused because it 'lacked passion'.

We need more pragmatism in this industry, less of the pseudo science

there’s plenty of passion in something like the DSI Evolver. not in the circuits, obviously that’s a fucking stupid argument that no one is making, but in the design decisions that went into the final product, how it allows for its users to use and abuse it to their own ends that makes it unique and interesting and markedly distinct from any number of similar machines.

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20 hours ago, auxien said:

pretty much any company is going to put R&D into a product, but the intent and passion will differentiate the ultimate outcome. Uli doing threads on Gearslutz aren’t about his passion for an instrument, it’s just market research so ultimately what he sells is as cheap as possible while ticking the boxes necessary. 

I'll have to disagree then because there are plenty of subpar legacy knockoffs that are less than half-assed. I've yet to hear any of these new toys that sound or perform half-assed. Have you seen some of the 303 clones out there? Utter trash but it seems like Behringer chose not to add to the pile. From what i can tell, someone really knows how to reverse engineer

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i just wish he'd clone something rare that i aint already sold.... (ARP 2600 is the first thing ive been mildly interested in, cs80 aint done yet so its vapourware until it comes out)

 

..and add microtuning.

 

Edited by donquixote
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1 hour ago, auxien said:

calling me entitled is making it pretty obvious you’re reading more into what i wrote than what is actually on your screen.

it’s about balance, B are trying to be Walmart of the synthesizer world. not illegal or even wrong, just capitalism. i don’t like it, but that’s my opinion. we’re allowed to have those and discuss them here, chill out my dude.

You don't like capitalism? How the hell do you live? I concede that my post was more strongly worded than I intended, but you do realise that almost all synths are a result of capitalism? I mean, I do own some soviet synths which aren't 'capitalist' but I certainly don't think they were built by passionate, empowered workers - more likely people who were strong armed by Government policy into doing so. They are also no more or less passionate than the capitalist synths I own.

I can't understand what's wrong with everyone being able to afford a synthesiser...

And yes, you are allowed to have an opinion and discuss them - isn't that exactly what we're doing now?

 

1 hour ago, auxien said:

there’s plenty of passion in something like the DSI Evolver. not in the circuits, obviously that’s a fucking stupid argument that no one is making, but in the design decisions that went into the final product, how it allows for its users to use and abuse it to their own ends that makes it unique and interesting and markedly distinct from any number of similar machines.

This is exactly the kind of thing we need to strive to avoid. No, that is not passion, those are basic design considerations. By that logic, the Behringer stuff must be more 'passionate' than the originals because they allows for more control options?! That doesn't make sense to me.

Personally I don't hold any device to an ideal. They are tools for expression, nothing more. I don't care what name is on the box, or what magazine/website has published a nonsense review regarding those. There's no magic in an 808 or 303 - it's a standard set of electrical components in a box which some people grew to fetishise, likely due to the scarcity of the products. Now we have a company selling them new for a few hundred quid, to me that's a result.

1 hour ago, donquixote said:

i just wish he'd clone something rare that i aint already sold.... (ARP 2600 is the first thing ive been mildly interested in, cs80 aint done yet so its vapourware until it comes out)

 

..and add microtuning.

 

Are they really planning a CS80? Or was that a joke?

Edited by 714681746476436
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If they pull the CS80 off it's going to be a gamechanger. My experience of purist gear is a 606 whose hihat section sounded like a circuit bent car alarm within two years and a 707's sequencer gone from bad to unusable in the same time period. Both units were bought for 500 eur twelve years ago. Second hand Roland gear is skyrocketing, good luck hunting units in """mint condition""". Forget what it says on the label and you can get a fully analog-log--log---log...® outboard skeleton crew for under 1000 eur; moog or another 80's monosynth clone, drum machine and a 303, maybe excluded a decent audio interface or sequencer. All warranty covered. You could set it up in a couple months on a normal salary with limited expenses (don't make babies), or at least pull back on bar and restaurant tabs for a quarter. The passionate boutique stuff (Sequential/DSI for starters) quickly approaches passionately exorbitant prices per unit to cover the overhead, and isn't really as versatile. How do you justify that? You really have to love the prophet/oberheim/whatever sound, and probably remind yourself of it 6 months from now. Not sure what the Behringer Arp will go for but that kind of shit was unthinkable not long ago. Shame that the sound of these machines isn't as irresistible after all these years (imo), at least not enough to justify hogging a ton of space. Having the option is super nice though. 

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3 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

You don't like capitalism? How the hell do you live?

71E61F4B-FC47-4DC2-819C-0122A6BB8DA7.jpeg.a0485ef062c01252c9a4a33b9d0fcc92.jpeg

posted this in a thread recently when Joyrex was using that same methodology.  it’s a silly argument and i hope you’re smart enough to realize that.

4 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

I can't understand what's wrong with everyone being able to afford a synthesiser...

no one here has said that.

4 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

This is exactly the kind of thing we need to strive to avoid. No, that is not passion, those are basic design considerations. By that logic, the Behringer stuff must be more 'passionate' than the originals because they allows for more control options?! That doesn't make sense to me.

your argument here doesn’t make any sense to me. B stuff allows for more control options? ...huh? more than what? all B synths are across the board ‘more passionate’ because “more control options”? this is wildly vague and doesn’t make any sense that I can tell. 

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16 minutes ago, auxien said:

71E61F4B-FC47-4DC2-819C-0122A6BB8DA7.jpeg.a0485ef062c01252c9a4a33b9d0fcc92.jpeg

posted this in a thread recently when Joyrex was using that same methodology.  it’s a silly argument and i hope you’re smart enough to realize that.

no one here has said that.

your argument here doesn’t make any sense to me. B stuff allows for more control options? ...huh? more than what? all B synths are across the board ‘more passionate’ because “more control options”? this is wildly vague and doesn’t make any sense that I can tell. 

Whoa, you have missed the mark with this.

Someone criticising capitalism for giving people what they want does not have an argument. I'd ask you to read my post again rather than posting jpg which aren't at all related to the discussion.

So please tell me what was implied when you said "B are trying to be Walmart of the synthesiser world". Because to me, that says they are selling cheap synths to those who want them. The barrier for entry has been lowered, we all benefit.

I'll break it down for you as I see it. Your example was:

"...  but in the design decisions that went into the final product, how it allows for its users to use and abuse it to their own ends that makes it unique and interesting and markedly distinct from any number of similar machines."

Yes? And my response is to tell you that the Behringer stuff actually has new control sets and features which compliment the old designs. Thus this particular argument doesn't work. So they are not just rehashing old designs (in reality, I don't see anything wrong with that) but are improving the available features on them as well.

It takes a new level of snobbery to shun a company looking to sell cheap synthesisers. I can literally see no downside.

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2 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

Someone criticising capitalism for giving people what they want does not have an argument.

i never criticized capitalism. this is the second or third time you've claimed i said a thing i didn't say. 

2 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

the Behringer stuff actually has new control sets and features which compliment the old designs. Thus this particular argument doesn't work. So they are not just rehashing old designs (in reality, I don't see anything wrong with that) but are improving the available features on them as well.

thanks for clarifying, i understand what you were trying to say the first time. Behringer stealing 98% of a product and remarketing it with 2% of changes doesn't negate the fact that they stole it. theft is sometimes okay, yes. not arguing against a new version of a 303 or any such business before anyone gets riled.

but at the end of the day they're not doing even doing a good or interesting take on a 303: it's just the cheapest one. is it maybe still a good and useful tool for a musician? sure! if you or anyone makes some great tunes with it or even nothing but Behringer products i wouldn't give two fucks, i'd enjoy the music. that doesn't mean i can't notice and worry about the possibility that Behringer could be causing a shift in the market for electronic instruments, potentially for the worse. there's always the possibility that it's for the better, and if so, great. hopefully some cheap instruments in the hands of musicians will lead to some new and interesting music. i sure as fuck hope it doesn't lead to thousands of hours of shitty wannabe-acid tracks clogging up our ears, but who's to say just yet. so far, i haven't seen or heard much, if anything, good coming from anyone using any new B synths, even youtube jams/demos. but i'm no connoisseur or hunting down such things of course.

2 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

It takes a new level of snobbery to shun a company looking to sell cheap synthesisers. I can literally see no downside.

snobbery? lol, i'm shunning them because their products are shit, there's plenty of other products that are shit too, i'll talk shit about them too, don't worry :)  and i have plenty of cheap/fucked up gear myself. Behrninger are just the worst out there from what i've seen and heard. i'm 100% about cheap anything when possible, but in general you get what you pay for, especially for something like a musical instrument, so yeah, i'll shun them and talk some shit, but make some music that shuts my mouth or, well, get over it ;)

however if you can see "literally no downside" to a market's perceived value and quality by a situation like this then you're either lying or terribly ignorant.

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You said “not illegal or even wrong, just capitalism. i don’t like it, but that’s my opinion”. You can see how I was confused. 
 

What is exactly shit about the gear? It’s quite literally my occupation to understand the manufacturing quality of electrical gear. Have you ever use the original 808 or 303? Now those have quality issues. They are below the level of children’s toys.

For the record, I’ve opened my Behringer 101 rip off to modify it and I couldn’t believe the quality of the components in there. It would appear to me the Behringer are saving money by having access to good factories and mass production techniques, not low quality components. 

There’s no way any western company would knowingly manufacture something poor quality - the warranty cost would kill them.

Thats right, I can’t see a downside. They are cheaper than the originals, more reliable, easily available and better quality (in the cases I have seen). I don’t give a fuck about the old vanguard. There are no sacred cows in electronics. 

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Seven pages before a thread about a megacorp leveraging economies of scale derailed into politics.

I’m impressed.

I also don’t think the market for analog synths is as large as Behringer seems to think it is, but then I’m “Frequently Wrong About Absolutely Everything”(tm), so ...

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2 hours ago, 714681746476436 said:

What is exactly shit about the gear? It’s quite literally my occupation to understand the manufacturing quality of electrical gear. Have you ever use the original 808 or 303? Now those have quality issues. They are below the level of children’s toys.

It's the same holy grails across the board with the pultecs, PAF pickups and whatnot, it was always cheap shit that usually can't be made to exact specs because the components aren't in production anymore. But it's the kind of cheap shit that happened to get involved in seminal music, so they attain mythical status. 

1 hour ago, rhmilo said:

Seven pages before a thread about a megacorp leveraging economies of scale derailed into politics.

I’m impressed.

I also don’t think the market for analog synths is as large as Behringer seems to think it is, but then I’m “Frequently Wrong About Absolutely Everything”(tm), so ...

Probably loads of indie bands that will be all over the pro 1 clone and model d, everything has an 80's synth hook these days. The electronic scene seems too occupied with vaportrap/whatever to make acid house. Still, watch the vendors and people are buying up the units... 

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