user Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 56 minutes ago, modey said: What a surprise, now they're ripping off the Devilfish mod.. http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/behringer-unauthorised/ Yeah, that's ugly af. I would more than gladly pay the price mentioned in that post (2x current td-3 retail) for an authorized, quality devilfish modded td3 and I think many people would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, modey said: What a surprise, now they're ripping off the Devilfish mod.. http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/behringer-unauthorised/ He's an idiot, making all those demands and asking up to 15% for essentially a name tag... Don't you guys watch Dragon's Den? Edited February 5, 2020 by chim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thawkins Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, chim said: He's an idiot, making all those demands and asking up to 15% for essentially a name tag... Don't you guys watch Dragon's Den? I thought the guy.. uhh.. also designed and is actively producing the mod. Behringer gets to win this one basically because it's too expensive for DevilFish to patent and trademark it properly and sue Uli. And 15% happens only after 10k units, which is a lot actually. And if that 15k is australian dollars.. you probably can't even buy a soda bottle with that amount, right? Incredible dick moves from big B. Edited February 5, 2020 by thawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acid1 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I kinda want one now I understand the corruption and theft behind it. Makes it more murderous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, thawkins said: I thought the guy.. uhh.. also designed and is actively producing the mod. Behringer gets to win this one basically because it's too expensive for DevilFish to patent and trademark it properly and sue Uli. And 15% happens only after 10k units, which is a lot actually. And if that 15k is australian dollars.. you probably can't even buy a soda bottle with that amount, right? Incredible dick moves from big B. Forgive the blasphemy, but if we're being pragmatic I don't see the enormous R&D contribution in adding potentiometers for stuff like accent decay and a couple filter switches. Maybe a big deal for a DIY manufacturer, but Behringer are already reverse-engineering these huge workhorses. It's obvious the original offer is the extent of "good faith" Behringer is willing to show, they're not out to do charity. It's not a fair system and if Robin Whittle had any sense he'd see the enormous disadvantage he's in. Considering the narrow margins 10-15 percent is really asking a lot, let alone the nerve of asking to move the device into a different price bracket. I wonder what percentage of the original price would make a noticeable impact on his current income? How many Devilfish mods does he turn around these days? It's a dick move indeed, especially adding "DF" on the pirate version, but that's the nature of the business... Edited February 5, 2020 by chim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thawkins Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, chim said: Forgive the blasphemy, but if we're being pragmatic I don't see the enormous R&D contribution in adding potentiometers for stuff like accent decay and a couple filter switches. Maybe a big deal for a DIY manufacturer, but Behringer are already reverse-engineering these huge workhorses. It's obvious the original offer is the extent of "good faith" Behringer is willing to show, they're not out to do charity. It's not a fair system but if Robin Whittle had any sense he'd see the enormous disadvantage he's in. Considering the narrow margins 10-15 percent is really asking a lot, let alone the nerve of attempting to move the device into a different price bracket. I wonder what percentage of the original price would make a noticeable impact on his current income? How many Devilfish mods does he turn around these days? It's a dick move indeed, especially adding "DF" on the pirate version, but that's the nature of the business... I don't actually know a lot about DevilFish, but "couple of potentiometers" is kind of downplaying the effort, I feel. Kind of like looking at a Mondrian piece and saying "not that complicated, just a bunch of squares and shit". What I am saying is that yeah the changes might not amount to much at first sight, but hey if it's not an enormous R&D contribution then Behringer could you know figure it out themselves instead of ripping off. I am not angry at you, it's just the situation of what you are saying is basically - this big company did not have to offer DF a deal, so they should be happy with the penny shavings. Nobody's forcing Behringer to clone this design - they are being abusive and the attitude of "just give in to the bully, nothing you can do anyway", is improving fuck all. I wonder if there was a sort of umbrella organisation for handling this kind of legal deals for a bunch of home tinkerers, would this happen? I mean you can't expect every small shop to retain a lawyer and do the copyrights/trademarks/patents, but maybe many small shops could. That said maybe DF's ask was too much, who knows. Pretty sure though that Behringer has expertise in negotiating this sort of deals, whereas DF does not. They are just a 2 person shop doing stuff making what they love. What particularly irks me about your post is that you say "the nerve of moving the device to a different price bracket" - to this I'd say who the fuck cares, Behringer had the nerve to rip off a whole design and then try and paper it over with some pathetic amount of money. Sorry for the rant, this situation is kind of shitty. Edited February 5, 2020 by thawkins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thawkins Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) I mean at this point why should they be nice to Behringer? In situations like this, laws and copyrights are supposed to you know protect the small guy from getting steamrolled. In practice, yeah they should be nice to Behringer because in the current world order you got to try and please big corps even as they are jiggling your privates while trying to get your wallet out. Edit: I swear today's afternoon coffee was weird, this may explain all these posts... Edited February 5, 2020 by thawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chim Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) It's a shame for sure but there's not a lot of corporations out there who would do right in this situation. The whole enterprise of cheap replicas prevents that kind of overhead. I'm not taking Behringer's side (at least not beyond the hope that they make smart decisions to stay in business) and don't think Robin should be nice.... He's getting steamrolled. All I'm saying is he could've been a bit smart in a shitty situation and perhaps enjoy some notoriety to a new audience. Maybe there would even have been a small royalty deal in there. What would you have done? The noble route here means just about fuck all, although that alone could be understood, seeing it's a decades long love child. It's the list of counter terms that strongly suggest he's out of touch. Edited February 5, 2020 by chim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modey Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 As ridiculous as Robin's requests were, at the end of the day it was a bit of a dick move of Behringer to just go ahead with an exact clone of the Devilfish mod. I'm kinda done with this Behringer clone stuff now. I'm not against anyone buying them, but I personally won't be buying any, even after having my eye on the Neutron and/or Wasp for a little while. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCM Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 way to cut off your nose to spite your face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thawkins Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diatoms Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 stillwaitingfortheacidtodrop:) bewaretheyellowsmiley raveahead :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak of the week Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 On 2/5/2020 at 12:26 AM, modey said: What a surprise, now they're ripping off the Devilfish mod.. http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/behringer-unauthorised/ so basically instead of getting $15k this guy will get nothing since he can't patent his shit and behringer will clone it? A+ move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braintree Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 The Devil Fish mod is great and everything, but I don't think it's worth $8,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 The mod is 3$ in parts, apparently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thawkins Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 9 hours ago, Braintree said: The Devil Fish mod is great and everything, but I don't think it's worth $8,000. I see $1391 for the most tricked out option here http://www.firstpr.com.au/rwi/dfish/prices-int/ Your link just had a bunch of surf boards in them so I did not see what you were referring to. I guess this is what you get for relying on Google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thawkins Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 8 hours ago, psn said: The mod is 3$ in parts, apparently. Electronics components are generally cheap as hell, especially when bought in bulk - no surprise there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Yeah, but Behringer's pricing model seems to be BOM + 30%. Hard to compete with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limo Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Yeah, and the Devilfish guy's pricing model seems to be: whatever the market will bear for soldering a couple of bucks worth of components. So: shrug. Nice for him he managed to build a business out of it for thirty years, but now it's back to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modey Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 fucking hell "lol it's only $3 in components anyone could make it" isn't the kind of argument I thought I'd see here 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thawkins Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, modey said: fucking hell "lol it's only $3 in components anyone could make it" isn't the kind of argument I thought I'd see here I wonder if they go "my kid could have done this" at an art museum. If they even have a kid... and like they'd ever go to a museum..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Member Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 : ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psn Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 38 minutes ago, modey said: fucking hell "lol it's only $3 in components anyone could make it" isn't the kind of argument I thought I'd see here Strawman-ing much? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limo Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, thawkins said: I wonder if they go "my kid could have done this" at an art museum. If they even have a kid... and like they'd ever go to a museum..... This is different, though ... it's a guy milking a thirty year old invention that is little more than a minor extension to someone else's forty year old device. Only reason he could make a business out of it because most people don't like taking a soldering iron to their electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diatoms Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 TD-3 who's gonna be my acid buddy when it arrives:) not to collaborate with but to gently remind each other the self is the key to unlocking that rave acid from those yellow smiley boxes:) KEEP AT IT HAVE FUN and the ACID WILL COME ALIVE:) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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