Coronavirus COVID-19

[caze]

13 minutes ago, Mesh Gear Fox said:

sometimes i think this, but can his ego handle being a 'loser'??

I'm sure that his levels of self delusion are such that no matter what the situation or context, his ego would remain unharmed from his own pov.

[dingformung]

10 minutes ago, Enthusiast said:

It’s inaccurate because Germany changed its behavior later? What?

Right. But how is that "throwing under the bus"? When there weren't enough supplies the non-existing supplies couldn't be sent to Italy and now that there are supplies they are sent to Italy. How is that "throwing under the bus"?

[caze]

Germany is also helping other countries clear their testing backlogs, they have the biggest capacity for performing tests in the EU now.

[Limo]

6 hours ago, Enthusiast said:

Why would it be a very big problem for Austria or Finland? The whole point of eurobonds is that if one country experiences an economic problem, they can still borrow at a reasonable rate based on how attractive the eurozone is as a whole. 

 

 

Right, but when Italy starts borrowing the Euro zone as a whole becomes a lot less attractive because Italy is such a big part of it, resulting in Finland and Austria having to borrow at much more unfavorable rates.

Also, don’t listen to what Salvini says. He’s an opposition politician whose throwing under a bus talk is for local consumption, to get his poll numbers back up.

[Enthusiast]

5 hours ago, rhmilo said:

Right, but when Italy starts borrowing the Euro zone as a whole becomes a lot less attractive because Italy is such a big part of it, resulting in Finland and Austria having to borrow at much more unfavorable rates.

Also, don’t listen to what Salvini says. He’s an opposition politician whose throwing under a bus talk is for local consumption, to get his poll numbers back up.

I know who Salvini is thanks. I made the point several pages ago that all this plays into his hands perfectly. This is bad news for Europe as a whole. But hey, as long as Finnish and Austrian bond yields remain unchanged while they, along with NL and Germany, reap the huge economic rewards of a huge trade surplus with rest of the eurozone - why should they care? It's not hard to see where this ends.

[Enthusiast]

10 hours ago, darreichungsform said:

Right. But how is that "throwing under the bus"? When there weren't enough supplies the non-existing supplies couldn't be sent to Italy and now that there are supplies they are sent to Italy. How is that "throwing under the bus"?

Germany is part of the single market. Germany illegally banned exports of ventilators and ppe to other members of the single market when Italy was in dire need of help.  If you don't understand what the phrase "thrown under the bus" means, I can't help you.

[Limo]

If you think a German government is going to send medical supplies to another country, even a fellow EU member, before making sure they have enough for their own people, aka their voters, well, then I can't help you.

[dingformung]

3 hours ago, Enthusiast said:

Germany is part of the single market. Germany illegally banned exports of ventilators and ppe to other members of the single market when Italy was in dire need of help.  If you don't understand what the phrase "thrown under the bus" means, I can't help you.

As far as I understand it, there weren't enough supplies at the beginning because large contingents were sent to China before. All I'm saying is, Italy does receive help during the crisis and will receive help when the pandemic is contained and it needs economical aid, no matter how much Salvini yells that the EU betrays them, but of course there could be done more I bet, and should be. The question was if corona bonds will on the long run cause more damage than they are good, which is likely, as far as I can see it (but I'm prone to erring). Can't you see the possible political disruptions it could cause? 

[goDel]

Yeah, the whole bonds thing is an awful idea to start with. And the irony that Italy, who were shitting all over anything EU related before this crisis, suddenly wants solidarity in terms of eurobonds is equally distasteful, imo. We want to help them. But not by giving them structural access to our bank-accounts. That's not solidarity. If you don't want the EU to influence your national budgets/expenses, you shouldn't expect access to our bank-accounts either. 

The eurobonds thing is not a solution. And certainly not one which would work in the short run. The fact they want to solve an immediate problem with a solution which would be years away, even if it would have broader support, says a lot, imo.

Might as well give Nigel Farage EU funding to build a wall around the UK to keep all the foreigners out. Out of solidarity. Yeah, right. We should have EU funding for his Brexit party - after Brexit! - as well, I'm sure.

[Enthusiast]

Hang on, who wants access to your bank accounts? Nobody is asking for money from Holland.

[Enthusiast]

6 hours ago, rhmilo said:

If you think a German government is going to send medical supplies to another country, even a fellow EU member, before making sure they have enough for their own people, aka their voters, well, then I can't help you.

The German government wouldn't be "sending" supplies that it does not own. Germany violated treaties that it signed along with other members of the single market, it's easy enough to see why this sort of behaviour might be a problem. 

[dingformung]

46 minutes ago, Enthusiast said:

The German government wouldn't be "sending" supplies that it does not own. Germany violated treaties that it signed along with other members of the single market, it's easy enough to see why this sort of behaviour might be a problem. 

But what does that have to do with corona bonds? Who claimed that all countries behaved correctly all the way through?

I agree with your stance that richer countries like Germany should be more generous especially in times like these, especially considering that they are the biggest profiteers of the EU. I'm just worried that corona bonds don't lead to the effects you wish for and on the long run lead to more European disintegration rather than to more European integration. Things that sound good from a moral perspective and look good on paper don't necessarily translate as well into reality as you might hope.

Spoiler

And we all know that all South Europeans are lazy and lie in the sun all day while the diligent and hard working people of Northern Europe have to pay for their luxurious life style and prostitutes.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by darreichungsform

[Enthusiast]

8 minutes ago, darreichungsform said:

But what does that have to do with corona bonds? Who claimed that all countries behaved correctly all the way through?

You literally began this by accusing Italians of being criminals and using that as your argument against eurobonds 

Quote

On the other hand, Italians are accused of not being able to handle money and being corrupt. A not very far-reaching accusation if we are being honest. Much of the money would surely go to Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra and Sacra Corona Unita and so on. It’s not all that far-fetched and scandalous to come to the conclusion that help should be given through different, more controlled and safe channels that don’t endanger the overall political climate of whole Europe.

 

[dingformung]

3 hours ago, Enthusiast said:

You literally began this by accusing Italians of being criminals and using that as your argument against eurobonds 

 

No, this wasn't my main argument, as I stated a couple of times. As you can see I didn't accuse Italians in general but do you really disagree that the Italian Mafia is very powerful and influences politics and politicians? The whole vegetable industry of Europe is based on human trafficking and slave work, lots of it happens on Italian ground organized by the various Italian criminal organizations, who pimp refugees. They kill people, they produce and distribute child pornography etc. Somehow when Arabic clans do stuff like this it's evil but we tend to look away when our own European friends have a problem with this stuff. Corruption definitely is an argument. Don't underestimate it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/20/tomatoes-italy-mafia-migrant-labour-modern-slavery

On 4/13/2020 at 8:57 PM, darreichungsform said:

I think it's smart not to allow the corona bonds. It would strengthen the right wing parties in Western Europe, who are finally about to disassemble themselves, also as a result of their poor judgement, ludicrous statements and their incompetence in the Corona issue. The creditworthiness of countries that are already indebted would improve if all EU countries were jointly liable, and therefore theoretically lead to more favourable terms for bonds for indebted countries. At the same time, the reliance on corona bonds could also be seen as an indicator of poor creditworthiness, and thus have a paradoxical effect, which is not necessarily likely but definitely something to consider. Ultimately, richer countries would probably have to bear the overall burden in the end, without being able to have the slightest say in the financial policies of the beneficiary countries, and that for a long, long time, for years and years to come. That would destroy the political landscape of the not profiting countries and resurrect right-wing parties. Instead, the countries concerned should be helped through other, more targeted channels (which incidentally also happens but is not mentioned in the media too much). I am not a friend of Merkel, but she has the right attitude on this question.

The sad thing is that old stereotypes and nationalisms are reviving, especially in Italy (which has a problem with nationalism anyway). For example, Tullio Solenghi, a well-known Italian comedian, says: “The Germans provoked the First World War, the Germans provoked the Second World War. The Germans exterminated 6 million Jews in the gas chambers and the Germans who still have this ruthless arrogance today in economic terms but always to consider themselves a superior race, still feel superior today ". And someone tell me again that the Dutch are undiplomatic, lol (even though I’m aware that it’s a difference if a Comedian or an official says stuff like this).
On the other hand, Italians are accused of not being able to handle money and being corrupt. A not very far-fetched accusation if we are being honest. Much of the money would surely go to Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra and Sacra Corona Unita and so on. It’s not all that far-fetched and scandalous to come to the conclusion that help should be given through different, more controlled and safe channels that don’t endanger the overall political climate of whole Europe.

Edited April 14, 2020 by darreichungsform

[chenGOD]

Man you guys - the corona bonds are a good idea in theory, but the problem is you insist on acting like a nation state but still allow members to set their own monetary and fiscal policies. This is obvious lunacy.

Signed,

An ignorant canadian.

 

p.s. are we all dead yet?

[ignatius]

Omg.


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/florida-governor-desantis-wwe-professional-wrestling-essential-conoravirus-service.html


Florida Governor Expands Pandemic Essential Services to Include Professional Wrestling

[dingformung]

25 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Man you guys - the corona bonds are a good idea in theory, but the problem is you insist on acting like a nation state but still allow members to set their own monetary and fiscal policies. This is obvious lunacy.

Signed,

An ignorant canadian.

 

p.s. are we all dead yet?

Yeah that's something that's discussed. Do we need a European finance minister? Something Macron is really into, which should make you suspicious, but a difficult matter

[chenGOD]

If you don't want to have the same fucking stupid discussion every two years (or whenever the shady southern europeans decide to slack off, or the dutch decide to be rude, or the germans arrogant) then yes, you should have European finance ministry that sets fiscal and monetary policy for the Eurozone.

(also better integration makes it easier to implement policies like the GDPR, or AML directives).

[goDel]

1 hour ago, Enthusiast said:

Hang on, who wants access to your bank accounts? Nobody is asking for money from Holland.

Sure. Italy just want to borrow their own money while the rest will be a warrant for their spending. Or, I want to make a loan, but because I can't do it with the interest you can, maybe you can sign the loan for me? And I don't want your money! No, it's just your rating I'm after, because I'm fucked and can't give a fuck about you anyways. Thank you! Sign here, please. 

O and by the time we fucked you over, we'll leave the EU anyways. Better to go our own ways. Solidarity, bitches!

[Alcofribas]

i sugest greece overtake the euro by financing the country with the gyro and let's see what happens

[Limo]

I love how this thread is a Euro nationalist wank fest one half of the day and Americans whining about Trump the other.

I’m signing off now, see you tomorrow. Let’s pick up on @darreichungsform’s suggestion and do some slamming of Macron. Anyone game?

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by rhmilo

[goDel]

No. I love how he shakes TRumps hands! Nice and firm.

[Alcofribas]

i have a source telling me the origin of the virus was not the bat but was a handshake from trump. unconfirmed

[IDEM]

21 minutes ago, Alcofribas said:

i sugest greece overtake the euro by financing the country with the gyro and let's see what happens

Mmm, gyrobonds ...

[dingformung]

33 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

I love how this thread is a Euro nationalist wank fest one half of the day and Americans whining about Trump the other.

I’m signing off now, see you tomorrow. Let’s pick up on @darreichungsform’s suggestion and do some slamming of Macron. Anyone game?

 

Euro nationalism is the best nationalism in the world. All other nationalisms suck