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1 hour ago, logboy said:

 

variants are not fear-mongering. the fear is from a variety of fronts - the risk of one that spreads more quickly, and kills more people. you can't predict where and when those more deadly variants appear. vaccination is an attempt to lower opportunities to generate variants; until you get through most of the world's population with vaccines, you're at least risking being back at square one all the time. remember, many countries won't even begin vaccination until next year, and some the year after that. 

every pocket of unvaccinated population across the world is generating new variants, and the lowered chances of vaccinated populations generating variants still also runs the risk too as people travel and drop their guard. when you realise there are billions of people on the planet, the number of variants now and in the future is huge; i think we're into many thousands identified already. even once vaccinated, you are (of course) at risk of it failing to deal with what you can catch. watch fauci make this pretty clear this week to rand paul - you don't catch it or vaccinate against it and solve it one individual at a time but collectively and in an ongoing battle rather than one that ends. you are facing something evolving to deal with being battled against and avoided, not passed around. 

for those that receive a flu vaccine each year, you might realise the relevant issues a little more clearly : it's an adjusted vaccine that's issued periodically, to deal with a selection of current prevalent / dominant / most dangerous variants that's described as being one condition under an umbrella term. i've already seen elderly folk here in england doing what i read usually happens with vaccinations that are required for large populations : they relax and think they don't need to be worried any more. problem is, variant appear without you or anyone necessarily knowing they're there and you can still carry a virus (and spread it) even when your chances of becoming seriously ill from them might be dramatically reduced by the current version of the vaccine you've received.

THANK YOU 

I'm terrible at getting into debates online and generally avoid it, I get way too stressed out and "pulled in" to the computer world and it's not good for my health.  So I feel like you expressed what I would have wanted to say, very well, in your post. 

I'm also strongly opposed to the idea of vaccination cards being used as passes for safe travel, at this stage. Yeah obviously it makes sense to do that with other diseases/vaccines that have been in use for some time and have solid science backing them up. But it's way too early for that with COVID. People need to stop acting like we've figured this thing out. We haven't yet. We're getting there, but we're not there yet. 

People getting pissy that they are being deprived of leisure travel need to stfu and suck it up. 

Edited by toaoaoad
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Well after 7 days in a row treating 40-odd patients daily without any available PPE I unsurprisingly came down with coronavirus symptoms on Monday. All feels a bit weird at home as my wife (who also

grandpa in the ICU .. doctors giving him a 50/50 chance. oof. miserable.

Thanks Jules!

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1 hour ago, logboy said:

you can't predict where and when those more deadly variants appear. vaccination is an attempt to lower opportunities to generate variants; until you get through most of the world's population with vaccines, you're at least risking being back at square one all the time.

variants is a real issue for sure. hopefully, since now,current covid vaccines seems to be efficient on new variants...

but for example in a particular area in france, they discovered a new variant a few weeks ago, wich is not more deadly or contagious, 

but this variant is not detected by standard pcr testing ! , so it created  clusters in a very short amount of time.

people were symptomatic but the test was negative, yet some days after some of them went hospital because actually they do have serious covid issues indeed.

so they figured out something was wrong an they realised that some of the variants could not be detected by some of the testing protocols.

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https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_1181

Coronavirus: Commission proposes a Digital Green Certificate

Quote

Today the European Commission is proposing to create a Digital Green Certificate to facilitate safe free movement inside the EU during the COVID-19 pandemic. The Digital Green Certificate will be a proof that a person has been vaccinated against COVID-19, received a negative test result or recovered from COVID-19. It will be available, free of charge, in digital or paper format. It will include a QR code to ensure security and authenticity of the certificate. The Commission will build a gateway to ensure all certificates can be verified across the EU, and support Member States in the technical implementation of certificates. Member States remain responsible to decide which public health restrictions can be waived for travellers but will have to apply such waivers in the same way to travellers holding a Digital Green Certificate.

Vice-President for Values and Transparency, Věra Jourová said: “The Digital Green Certificate offers an EU-wide solution to ensure that EU citizens benefit from a harmonised digital tool to support free movement in the EU. This is a good message in support of recovery. Our key objectives are to offer an easy to use, non-discriminatory and secure tool that fully respects data protection. And we continue working towards international convergence with other partners.”

Commissioner for Justice, Didier Reynders, said: “With the Digital Green Certificate, we are taking a European approach to ensure EU citizens and their family members can travel safely and with minimum restrictions this summer. The Digital Green Certificate will not be a pre-condition to free movement and it will not discriminate in any way. A common EU-approach will not only help us to gradually restore free movement within the EU and avoid fragmentation. It is also a chance to influence global standards and lead by example based on our European values like data protection.”

Key elements of the regulation proposed by the Commission today:

  1. Accessible and secure certificates for all EU citizens:

  • The Digital Green Certificate will cover three types of certificates –vaccination certificates, test certificates (NAAT/RT-PCR test or a rapid antigen test), and certificates for persons who have recovered from COVID-19.

  • The certificates will be issued in a digital form or on paper. Both will have a QR code that contains necessary key information as well as a digital signature to make sure the certificate is authentic.

  • The Commission will build a gateway and support Member States to develop software that authorities can use to verify all certificate signatures across the EU. No personal data of the certificate holders passes through the gateway, or is retained by the verifying Member State.

  • The certificates will be available free of charge and in the official language or languages of the issuing Member State and English.

  1. Non-discrimination:

  • All people – vaccinated and non-vaccinated – should benefit from a Digital Green Certificate when travelling in the EU. To prevent discrimination against individuals who are not vaccinated, the Commission proposes to create not only an interoperable vaccination certificate, but also COVID-19 test certificates and certificates for persons who have recovered from COVID-19.

  • Same right for travellers with the Digital Green Certificate –where Member States accept proof of vaccination to waive certain public health restrictions such as testing or quarantine, they would be required to accept, under the same conditions, vaccination certificates issued under the Digital Green Certificate system. This obligation would be limited to vaccines that have received EU-wide marketing authorisation, but Member States can decide to accept other vaccines in addition.

  • Notification of other measures – if a Member State continues to require holders of a Digital Green Certificate to quarantine or test, it must notify the Commission and all other Member States and explain the reasons for such measures.

  1. Only essential information and secure personal data:

  • The certificates will include a limited set of information such as name, date of birth, date of issuance, relevant information about vaccine/test/recovery and a unique identifier of the certificate. This data can be checked only to confirm and verify the authenticity and validity of certificates.

The Digital Green Certificate will be valid in all EU Member States and open for Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway as well as Switzerland. The Digital Green Certificate should be issued to EU citizens and their family members, regardless of their nationality. It should also be issued to non-EU nationals who reside in the EU and to visitors who have the right to travel to other Member States.

The Digital Green Certificate system is a temporary measure. It will be suspended once the World Health Organization (WHO) declares the end of the COVID-19 international health emergency.

Next Steps

To be ready before the summer, this proposal needs a swift adoption by the European Parliament and the Council.

In parallel, Member States must implement the trust framework and technical standards, agreed in the eHealth network, to ensure timely implementation of the Digital Green Certificate, their interoperability and full compliance with personal data protection. The aim is to have the technical work and the proposal completed in the coming months.

Background

To comply with the measures to limit the spread of the coronavirus, travellers in the EU have been asked to provide various documents, such as medical certificates, test results, or declarations. The absence of standardised formats has resulted in travellers experiencing problems when moving within the EU. There have also been reports of fraudulent or forged documents.

In their statement adopted following the informal video conferences on 25 and 26 February 2021, the members of the European Council called for work to continue on a common approach to vaccination certificates. The Commission has been working with the Member States in the eHealth Network, a voluntary network connecting national authorities responsible for eHealth, on preparing the interoperability of vaccination certificates. Guidelines were adopted on 27 January and updated on 12 March, and the trust framework outline was agreed on 12 March 2021.

Today the Commission adopted a legislative proposal establishing a common framework for a Digital Green Certificate. The Commission also adopted a complementary proposal to ensure that the Digital Green Certificate is also issued to non-EU nationals who reside in Member States or Schengen Associated States and to visitors who have the right to travel to other Member States. Separate proposals to cover citizens and non-EU citizens are necessary for legal reasons; there is no difference in treatment of citizens and eligible non-EU citizens for the purpose of the certificates.

The latest information on coronavirus measures as well as travel restrictions provided to us by Member States are available on the Re-open EU platform.

 

 


 

en_green_certif_just_reg130_final.pdf

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1 hour ago, toaoaoad said:

I'm also strongly opposed to the idea of vaccination cards being used as passes for safe travel, at this stage.

I personally don't know enough about immunology to have a strong opinion about this this at this stage.  Being too cautious is less dangerous than not being cautious enough, I guess.  You gotta have experts (immunologists etc.) decide on whether vaccination certificates are a good idea from a medical standpoint or not, if it can be done safely etc.  I’m sure the European Commission had medical advisors when preparing the proposal.  But there are also business interests involved, as always in politics, lobbying etc.  Especially considering who is in charge of the European Commission at the moment.  But if it can really be done safely it would be a pretty good thing.

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11 hours ago, toaoaoad said:

THANK YOU 

I'm terrible at getting into debates online and generally avoid it, I get way too stressed out and "pulled in" to the computer world and it's not good for my health.  So I feel like you expressed what I would have wanted to say, very well, in your post. 

I'm also strongly opposed to the idea of vaccination cards being used as passes for safe travel, at this stage. Yeah obviously it makes sense to do that with other diseases/vaccines that have been in use for some time and have solid science backing them up. But it's way too early for that with COVID. People need to stop acting like we've figured this thing out. We haven't yet. We're getting there, but we're not there yet. 

People getting pissy that they are being deprived of leisure travel need to stfu and suck it up. 

i’m usually very similar in my behaviour in online discussions.

i’ve noticed a lot of relative difficulty in formulating ideas and theories, explanations, coming from people meeting here that are from across the globe. interesting to see a worldwide issue play out in different ways, and limit or alter views on what is happening, in what’s expressed in contributions.

it’s a huge exercise in revealing people’s ability to logically think through the effects and consequences of behaviours and actions, and an ongoing one in ever-evolving ways. i suspect countries that resist acknowledging the pandemic (from their leadership down) will be increasingly problematic, and vaccine nationalism will worsen, stresses will rise and conflicts risked. some kind of passport system, probably digital in most places, will likely be one solution to need to get people (safely?!) moving across borders despite movement being lethal too.

at every stage were still lacking in understanding, and new stages, facets and aspects come to light as the bigger picture is gradually picked over. each country has both their individual, unpredictable and repeated (familiar) ones to spot and deal with, as well as their part in a global one that’s against usual levels of cooperation, too.

Edited by logboy
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29 minutes ago, logboy said:

some kind of passport system, probably digital in most places, will likely be one solution to need to get people (safely?!) moving across borders

This passport system would probably not only be used for making moving across borders more safe and convenient (in that you don't have to quarantine yourself for 2 weeks whenever you've crossed a border when you are vaccinated), it would also allow for exceptions in local lockdowns (e.g. exceptions in stay-at-home orders).  It might make sense to have something like that.

Edited by dingformung
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Are other countries besides the US discussing the possibility of employers requiring proof of vaccinations for employment?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/20/2021 at 10:54 AM, MaartenVC said:

For some reason covid-19 infections and hospital admissions are slowly rising again in Belgium...
Recently, both my uncle and his wife have been admitted in hospital for covid-19.
Their age could be a bit of a risk. I hope they'll get better.
My gf is/was really looking forward to being allowed to go to work again in the month of May.
(she's a waitress in bar for beer enthusiasts)
But if the numbers keep rising I can't imagine the government will allow bars to open again in May.

My uncle died last week to Covid-19.
My aunt (his wife) survived it.

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On 3/20/2021 at 9:17 PM, toaoaoad said:

People getting pissy that they are being deprived of leisure travel need to stfu and suck it up. 

I haven't seen my gf living in China for 16 months now. If it takes a vaccination to see her again then just I'll happily take any of the available vaccines.

China recently made business travel to China easier if you've had the Chinese vaccine, but the Chinese vaccine is not currently available in Finland.:facepalm: They are planning to extend the rule to other vaccines, but who knows how long that change will take.

On 3/21/2021 at 9:45 AM, Rubin Farr said:

Are other countries besides the US discussing the possibility of employers requiring proof of vaccinations for employment?

My friend living in Ecuador had to get vaccinated to be able to go back to lecturing and the Chinese vaccine was the only one available..

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3 hours ago, Roo said:

Wore a mask for the very first time today!

Didn't fall for it. 😄

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I’m scheduled to get the vaccine next week, my parents have got it, and my wife and daughter got their first shots. No side effects really, other than arm pains. We had Covid a couple months ago and for us it was pretty minor, but I still haven’t got my smell all the way back.

I just heard on NPR yesterday that music festivals were being scheduled again. I really wanted to go to Movement again, the one a couple years ago with Orbital was awesome, and then the next year Covid hit and Underworld canceled. That was the last real show I had been to (well I saw Tim and Eric live, but not the same thing haha). I had tickets to see Kraftwerk last July- canceled. 

It’s really nice to see that they are scheduling events, even tho I haven’t seen anything I’m too crazy about. 

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1 hour ago, psn said:

Didn't fall for it. 😄

Seriously. Been in a lucky area, today was the first time that I’ve happened to head out on a rare mandatory mask day. Otherwise never see them. Nearest cases 2000km away right now.

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I'm at least half-immune now, though I've never experienced symptoms since this all started. Second vaccination is on 4/20 of all days (not by my choosing)

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I'm scheduled to get my first shot on Tuesday. I have to drive an hour away, but that's fine. It's a nice drive, and it took forever to find an appt. I'm just glad this shit is nearing the final stretch.

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16 hours ago, Braintree said:

 I'm just glad this shit is nearing the final stretch.

odd use of the phrase ‘final stretch’. i’d say ‘end of the beginning’, and even then, denial is rife within leaders of some countries, so not even close to wrapping their heads around there being a problem, let alone solving it. variants will generate, vaccines will require revisions, problems will persist. likely for decades.

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5 hours ago, logboy said:

odd use of the phrase ‘final stretch’. i’d say ‘end of the beginning’, and even then, denial is rife within leaders of some countries, so not even close to wrapping their heads around there being a problem, let alone solving it. variants will generate, vaccines will require revisions, problems will persist. likely for decades.

More like the beginning of the end. It's probably not really going to be over for another year and half if you really get down to it.

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29 minutes ago, Rubin Farr said:

Haven’t seen much writing yet on how long the vaccines prove effective before a booster is needed:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/long-covid-19-vaccine-protection-204000577.html

nightly news here and NPR said 6 months at least w/fauci interviews and others. 

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/legault-quebec-april-6-covid-19-measures-1.5977107

glad the government is looking out for the well-being of its society by shutting everything down again

dunno why they've got a picture of legault indicating the size of his penis tho

Edited by Cryptowen
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