Coronavirus COVID-19

[Satans Little Helper]

1 hour ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

hey thanks for the honest reply!  No troll here, I realize the potential pitfalls of asking a music making community about medical science, but if anything I’m venting frustration over a few things:

1) No long term science is performed on drugs that make it past the phase iii clinical trials and licensure by the fda. this is a HUGE mistake.  After the clinical trials for vaccines the drug companies offer every participant the drug and don’t follow up on any of the participants that refuse (most do not).

2) these are drugs in phase iii clinical trials (where theoretically you start to gather long term data).  We’re already mandating it in some instances for travel, school, and work. Too soon?

3) The science and politics have become intertwined as both you and I have stated already, and I would add that the major media outlets are all acting as corporate mouthpieces for the drug manufacturing companies.  I’m not going full Zeff and saying that making money is bad, what I’m saying is that I don’t trust any of them for dissemination of factual information anymore.  CNN’s technical director was recently caught undercover talking about how they are actively engaged in propaganda, falsifying information, selectively reporting stories that support their agenda, etc.  Think it an isolated incident?

So when I petition an unlikely source as this place for good information (some has been provided already, so not a fully futile gesture), I’m really just trying to get good information.  The algorithms have changed, censorship of ideas has begun, and anybody that questions the “mainstream narrative” gets demonized, demonetized, deplatformed, or outright banned and their content scrubbed.  People have been backing up content provided by seemingly good faith actors just trying to reach their own objective conclusion about What the Hell is Going on in This World.  If this isn’t concerning to you then 

Let me start with saying you shouldn't point the finger towards others (dcom) and their "assumptions" as you so obviously have lots of them yourself. As you should be able to notice in that post you've written.

ad 1: You say it's a "HUGE" mistake. How so? Why "HUGE"?

I mean, ideally you'd like to know long term effects. But the reality is, researching long term effects are incredibly difficult, if possible, to do. Apart from being very expensive, it's extremely hard to keep confounding aspects out of the equation. And another issue I have with your argument is that given the amount of treatments that have gotten market access this way, and the amount of issues that have come from there being not enough knowledge about potential longterm effects, you'd expect these policies would have changed if there had been serious issues on a regular basis. 

Also note that all manufacturers have to structurally monitor for side-effects in the population. And continuously monitor the quality of the treatments that get put on the market.

edit: and most negative effects will show up shortly or even immediately. (how long term is long term btw? you'd want society to wait a couple of decades for a new cancer treatment?)

ad 2: Yeah, the reasoning being that government *really* want to open their societies up as soon as possible. So any excuse helps.

ad 3: In a situation like this - global pandemic - it's inevitable that politics and science get real close to one another. Not saying they're intertwined. Although, during Trump's presidency, things got intertwined in the worst way possible (eg. a president pretending to know science and using his platform to advise using chlorosomething). Currently, I'd argue things have normalised to the extent that scientists (with authority, like Fauci) can actually speak scientific facts, to the best of their ability. Without repercussion (from a guy with an orange head). 

Also "I would add that the major media outlets are all acting as corporate mouthpieces for the drug manufacturing companies" is an assumption. Mostly baseless I would argue. At least, do media outlets all over the world say different things? And if not, would you seriously argue that all media outlets all over the world just happen to act as corporate mouthpieces for the industry? That's a big tinfoil hat to fill!

"The algorithms have changed, censorship of ideas has begun,"

Have you noticed the amount of misinformation? Have you noticed the impact of misinformation in social media? If that isn't concerning you.. dude, whatever.

As far as I can tell, most of the stuff that's been taken off line was garbage anyways. And there's still plenty garbage left (opposing viewpoints included), so I don't see a big issue here. Please give examples of massive censorship. If you want to have a blast, you could go full Zeff and give a minute description of the censorship situation in China.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Satans Little Helper

[zero]

7 minutes ago, Wunderbar said:

I got my shot yesterday from some guy off the street. 

[Wunderbar]

1 minute ago, zero said:

I mean he is a nice fella, He is been providing me with drugs since i was in middle school.

[Braintree]

5 hours ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

Also, careful with your assumptions.  While I’m not a medical doctor, I have studied molecular biotechnology, microbiology, taught university level health sciences, and generally understand enough about the sciences to be able to interpret raw data and peer review.  So plz watmm, try harder

Please reply with where you taught so I know not to send my kids there.

[BCM]

jesus christ it's well in here

[Claudius t Ansuulim]

ok, maybe I haven’t been clear enough about what it is I’m on about (written language is so 2 dimensional). So, global vaccination campaign. coronaviruses, while relatively slow to mutate compared to say influenza, will mutate. Serious question here: does theorized immunity conferred by said vaccines extend to any or all mutations? I’m pretty sure that answer is no regarding the latter, which if that’s the case *may* lead to the “arms race” Dr. Vanden Bossche described in the video I linked. To put it another way, you’re creating a selective pressure that is akin to how we end up with Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus (there are differences for sure, but I point to this as an example of how a pharmacological approach can cause more virulent strains through selective evolutionary pressures). If anybody here has any evidence to the contrary I’d love to see it, but at this point I’m not expecting anybody from watmm to be able to provide the types of counterpoints I’m looking for (except dan. way to go dan!). It looks like we’re headed towards a world where everybody will be asked to take an annual CoV booster shot, which I’m FINE WITH as long as it’s not MANDATORY. you all wanna be guinea pigs for the pharmaceutical companies? fine. just leave me out of it *storms out of room in full tinfoil body armor*

 

feel free to gratuitously facepalm this post

[Wunderbar]

10 minutes ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

ok, maybe I haven’t been clear enough about what it is I’m on about (written language is so 2 dimensional). So, global vaccination campaign. coronaviruses, while relatively slow to mutate compared to say influenza, will mutate. Serious question here: does theorized immunity conferred by said vaccines extend to any or all mutations? I’m pretty sure that answer is no regarding the latter, which if that’s the case *may* lead to the “arms race” Dr. Vanden Bossche described in the video I linked. To put it another way, you’re creating a selective pressure that is akin to how we end up with Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus (there are differences for sure, but I point to this as an example of how a pharmacological approach can cause more virulent strains through selective evolutionary pressures). If anybody here has any evidence to the contrary I’d love to see it, but at this point I’m not expecting anybody from watmm to be able to provide the types of counterpoints I’m looking for (except dan. way to go dan!). It looks like we’re headed towards a world where everybody will be asked to take an annual CoV booster shot, which I’m FINE WITH as long as it’s not MANDATORY. you all wanna be guinea pigs for the pharmaceutical companies? fine. just leave me out of it *storms out of room in full tinfoil body armor*

 

feel free to gratuitously facepalm this post

  I feel like your font-size choice is linked to some unresolved childhood trauma of not being heard. Lets unpack that.

[Claudius t Ansuulim]

copied and pasted from notes app, as I’ve stated previously. when I pasted I saw the “paste as plain text” option, but then I saw Bilbo Baggins holding the ring saying “why should I?”

[dcom]

I'm Finnish. We have probably one of the best healthcare systems in the world, and it costs practically nothing to go to the doctor. Our health insurance is handled by the state (no, it's not communism) and it's paid for from taxes. We have no fear of life-destroying debt from medical procedures, and as a nation, we Finns trust our government and health care system - which isn't trying to make as much money as possible from the care. Besides national health insurance there's mandatory work health insurance, which is paid for by our employers. I have an extended one that allows me to go to any healthcare provider I choose, and I pay nothing. Zero. All vaccinations I've ever had have been free. I've had the influenza shot for yonks every year. My last major operation years ago was a tonsillectomy to alleviate sleep apnea - free, with two weeks fully paid sick leave for recovery. Meds have a yearly cost cap, when you reach it you pay only a fraction of the price for all meds after that. When our son was born, the delivery and three day stay at the hospital with our own room and five meals a day for both parents cost us a total of 100 €.

I don't fear vaccines because I live in a country where we can trust them by default. A Finnish anti-vaxxer is an evolutionary regression.

Edited April 29, 2021 by dcom

[Wunderbar]

29 minutes ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

copied and pasted from notes app, as I’ve stated previously. when I pasted I saw the “paste as plain text” option, but then I saw Bilbo Baggins holding the ring saying “why should I?”

I feel like we made a breakthrough here, same time next week?

[chenGOD]

57 minutes ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus

Bacteria and viruses are quite different animals. So not sure why you’re bringing up MRSA

from the massively censored MSM https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/30/mutations-could-make-current-covid-vaccines-ineffective-soon-survey.html

Here’s the actual survey: https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/two-thirds-epidemiologists-warn-mutations-could-render-current-covid-vaccines

And from that survey - “The overwhelming majority —88 percent— said that persistent low vaccine coverage in many countries would make it more likely for vaccine resistant mutations to appear. ”

You understand why we can’t leave you out of the tracking chip vaccine roll-out comrade?

 

[Claudius t Ansuulim]

2 hours ago, Braintree said:

Please reply with where you taught so I know not to send my kids there.

Prager U

[Rubin Farr]

1 hour ago, Wunderbar said:

  I feel like your font-size choice is linked to some unresolved childhood trauma of not being heard. Lets unpack that.

yeah enough with the large font.

[Claudius t Ansuulim]

oh man I’m so fucking tempted *fights the urge*

[Claudius t Ansuulim]

17 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Bacteria and viruses are quite different animals. So not sure why you’re bringing up MRSA

from the massively censored MSM https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/30/mutations-could-make-current-covid-vaccines-ineffective-soon-survey.html

Here’s the actual survey: https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/two-thirds-epidemiologists-warn-mutations-could-render-current-covid-vaccines

And from that survey - “The overwhelming majority —88 percent— said that persistent low vaccine coverage in many countries would make it more likely for vaccine resistant mutations to appear. ”

You understand why we can’t leave you out of the tracking chip vaccine roll-out comrade?

 

Thanks Chen!!! That speaks exactly to my point. We’ll be chasing our tails endlessly with this thing.  For note I only brought up MRSA as an example of how a pharmacological approach can cause more virulent strains through selective evolutionary pressures

 

[chenGOD]

15 minutes ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

Thanks Chen!!! That speaks exactly to my point. We’ll be chasing our tails endlessly with this thing.  For note I only brought up MRSA as an example of how a pharmacological approach can cause more virulent strains through selective evolutionary pressures

 

We’ll be chasing our tails endlessly if people refuse to vaccinate, for sure. 
 

As to the point about selective evolutionary pressures: this may be true, but it doesn’t negate the usefulness of vaccines. This article explains it quite well so even dummies like me can understand it: https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/

[Claudius t Ansuulim]

Again, speaks to my point. You’d have to simultaneously vaccinate every potential reservoir (ie host organism) on earth as well as socially distance and wear a mask (get those chickens to mask up!) for over two weeks in order for this virus to be eliminated. for every strain. otherwise resistance is futile, and just like in Marek’s Disease, more virulent strains will be potentially be selected for.

[jaderpansen]

1 hour ago, dcom said:

I'm Finnish. We have probably one of the best healthcare systems in the world, and it costs practically nothing to go to the doctor. Our health insurance is handled by the state (no, it's not communism) and it's paid for from taxes. We have no fear of life-destroying debt from medical procedures, and as a nation, we Finns trust our government and health care system - which isn't trying to make as much money as possible from the care. Besides national health insurance there's mandatory work health insurance, which is paid for by our employers. I have an extended one that allows me to go to any healthcare provider I choose, and I pay nothing. Zero. All vaccinations I've ever had have been free. I've had the influenza shot for yonks every year. My last major operation years ago was a tonsillectomy to alleviate sleep apnea - free, with two weeks fully paid sick leave for recovery. Meds have a yearly cost cap, when you reach it you pay only a fraction of the price for all meds after that. When our son was born, the delivery and three day stay at the hospital with our own room and five meals a day for both parents cost us a total of 100 €.

I don't fear vaccines because I live in a country where we can trust them by default. A Finnish anti-vaxxer is an evolutionary regression.

in b4 "finland doesn't exist".

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

Again, speaks to my point. You’d have to simultaneously vaccinate every potential reservoir (ie host organism) on earth as well as socially distance and wear a mask (get those chickens to mask up!) for over two weeks in order for this virus to be eliminated. for every strain. otherwise resistance is futile, and just like in Marek’s Disease, more virulent strains will be potentially be selected for.

If you read the article all the way through, you’ll see they still provide solid evidence for continuing with vaccinations. This was written before COVID, so it’s not propaganda to convince you to take a vaccine for the globalists or something. 
 

To save time:

Quote

Over time, then, in a world of leaky vaccinations, a pathogen might evolve to become deadlier to unvaccinated hosts because it can reap the benefits of virulence without the costs — much as Marek’s disease has slowly become more lethal to unvaccinated chickens

And:

Quote

researchers concerned with vaccine-driven evolution stress that the phenomenon is not in any way an argument against vaccination or its value; it’s just a consequence that needs to be considered, and one that can potentially be avoided. By thinking through how a pathogen population might respond to a vaccine, scientists can potentially make tweaks before it happens. They might even be able to design vaccines that encourage pathogens to become less dangerous over time.

 

[Rubin Farr]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/free-beer-pot-and-savings-bonds-vaccinators-are-desperate-to-get-americans-to-roll-up-their-sleeves-01619718456?siteid=yhoof2

[dcom]

11 hours ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

Prager U

I'm not sure if you're invoking Poe's Law in jest or not, but if you're not and you've seriously "taught" at PragerU... well, according to Media Bias/Fact Check:

Quote

Overall, we rate PragerU Questionable based on extreme right-wing bias, promotion of propaganda, the use of poor sources who have failed fact checks, and the publication of misleading information regarding immigration and climate change.

Wikipedia:

Quote

Despite the name, PragerU is not an academic institution and does not hold classes, grant certifications or diplomas, and is not accredited by any recognized body. PragerU's videos over a range of topics including climate change, racial issues, politics, and opposition to immigration have been criticized as misleading or factually incorrect.

Sourcewatch lists some content topics:

Quote

• American Pride
• Black Conservatism
• Diversity of Presenters
• Environmental Issues and Climate Change Denial
• Religious Issues
• American Identity
• Strong Pro-Israel Stance

It's a right-wing propaganda site pumping out five-minute YouTube videos catering for the unintellgentsia. I wouldn't even joke about being associated to sewage like that.

Edited April 30, 2021 by dcom

[psn]

Stone cold killer ^ :D

[Satans Little Helper]

I feel dirty

[iococoi]

[Rubin Farr]