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35 minutes ago, thefxbip said:

The vaccine works and most people dying right now over here are unvaccinated people. Being unvaccinated and working in health is extremely irresponsible. If i was a cancer patient or vulnerable patient i would be quite pissed at people like my mom.

Whatever progress we have made is in great part due to vaccine. 

I repeat once again what the hell the you propose instead of vaccines??? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-cytotoxic-idUSL2N2O01XP

Does the vaccine still “work” if it causes cancer down the road?  It takes a long time to evaluate these kinds of things, I get it, people are dying now, so we need something. The treatments that primary care physicians use for covid patients varies, but all the evidence points towards the ventilators causing more damage than potential good, yet we still used them instead of the pharmaceuticals that showed promise early on in the pandemic and now it seems have enough evidence to be adopted on a national level by some countries.  I’m not trying to “red-pill” anyone (except maybe kakapon and toaoad) *winks and kisses*

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1 hour ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

sounds like your mom is of sound mind to me. I’ve never been “anti-vax” before, I still defer to medical treatments I think are necessary, I just don’t think this one is necessary, I don’t think “herd immunity” will ever be reached, I think we’ll always be dealing with some variant of this virus (ie it is endemic), and I don’t really think you can call this thing a “vaccine” if you have to take annual boosters.  And I agree with her that it’s “experimental” in that there has never been an mrna vaccine on the market, ever.  And it sure looks like money got in the way of viable treatments early on in order to justify the eua for the vaccines.  I followed up on the WHO link provided after one of my previous posts mentioned Ivermectin, and then my singular source of good critical information, The Dark Horse Podcast, had Robert Malone on it, and he mentioned that he had been approached by the Department of Defense to investigate Ivermectin but the WHO wanted a working mechanism for how the drug impacted the virus directly so he abandoned it.  He also mentioned that all evidence pointed to Ivermectin being an effective treatment, and that it looked like that evidence was clear pretty much from the getgo. And for those unfamiliar Robert Malone is the guy THAT FRIGGIN’ INVENTED MRNA VACCINES. So none of this “but he ain’t a specialist” tomfoolery.  I was going to link the dark horse podcast here with him on it but it’s been pulled off of youtube.  Malone, who started up Moderna, also said he would not take the vaccine manufactured by his former company had he known then what he knows now.  A FOIA’ed (or rather the Japanese equivalent) document of safety data for the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines revealed that the vaccine, once administered, does not stay in the deltoid muscle as it’s supposed to but rather travels throughout the body within minutes and traces of the lipid nanoparticle were found throughout the body with concentrations in the spleen, liver, adrenal glands, ovaries, and bone marrow.  Though no direct evidence was found, it could be inferred that the spike protein is released in these areas of the body as well.  And instead of allowing for the free and fair dissemination of ideas every effort is being made to silence any information that is critical of the vaccines.  Not only is it un-american (free speech much?) but holy fuck batman, does it not concern you when places like youtube, which people use to get an idea of what’s happening in the world, censor videos of people reporting their side effects from this vaccine as “misinformation” or “disinformation”?  Or wikipedia removing Malone from the page on mrna vaccines and how they were invented AFTER he had become critical of them?  Hey mods, feel free to delete this post, it seems like there are plenty here who think that’s perfectly fine.

being an authority on something doesn't mean you're immune from making mistakes or reasoning badly, which is a likely scenario here, as the vast majority of the scientific community seems to disagree with this dude - i'm not saying he's necessarily wrong btw, it's just that you're using an argument from authority as if it had any value. i don't give a shit if that dude is the pope lol. 

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While the other vaccines do tend to confer a longer lasting immunity some do as you mentioned require boosters.  The flu shot is a poor example because they develop those years in advance for how it’s hypothesized that the flu will mutate, and it’s hardly an immunization if the immunoresponse is that short-lived.  So if you think it’s a good idea to already be talking about boosters for these vaccines before they’re even fully evaluated or approved by the fda then I’ve got some choice words for ya

1 minute ago, brian trageskin said:

being an authority on something doesn't mean you're immune from making mistakes or reasoning badly, which is a likely scenario here, as the vast majority of the scientific community seems to disagree with this dude - i'm not saying he's necessarily wrong btw, it's just that you're using an argument from authority as if it had any value. i don't give a shit if that dude is the pope lol. 

this is the argument I see made all the time, yet whenever any level of scrutiny is applied the idea of gestalt amongst the scientific community falls apart.  That’s a whole ‘nother can o’ worms tho

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Oh by the way. The guy seems like he's seeking attention and lying from the straight go as being the best expert and inventor to get it.

https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd (with references links)

It is Dr. Katalin Karikó and her collaborator Dr. Drew Weissman who are more commonly credited with laying the groundwork for mRNA vaccines.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "mRNA vaccines teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies." mRNA vaccines are a new sort of vaccine; the COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna were the first.

On his personal website, Twitter, and LinkedIn, Dr. Robert Malone has been promoting himself as the inventor of mRNA vaccines. This is misleading. In 1989, Malone published a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While this paper is an example of his important contribution to the then-emerging field, it does not make him the inventor of mRNA vaccines.

According to Stat News, "for decades, scientists have dreamed about the seemingly endless possibilities of custom-made messenger RNA or mRNA." According to the New York Times, "For her entire career, Dr. Kariko has focused on messenger RNA, or mRNA — the genetic script that carries DNA instructions to each cell’s protein-making machinery. She was convinced mRNA could be used to instruct cells to make their own medicines, including vaccines."

While Malone's research may have been important, scientific breakthroughs don't always boast a sole "inventor." Instead, they come about through the work of many.

The COVID-19 pandemic has given rise to a lot of potentially dangerous misinformation. For reliable advice on COVID-19, including symptoms, prevention, and available treatment, please refer to the World Health Organization or your national healthcare authority.

 

Edited by thefxbip
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41 minutes ago, Claudius t Ansuulim said:

this is the argument I see made all the time, yet whenever any level of scrutiny is applied the idea of gestalt amongst the scientific community falls apart.  That’s a whole ‘nother can o’ worms tho

i have no idea what gestalt means but given the context, i guess it means cohesion or consensus or something. my point is that given the methods that science uses to acquire knowledge, i'm very skeptical when i hear about an expert disagreeing with the vast majority of experts. it's only reasonable to assume that there's probably a good reason why the majority disagrees with the minority, other than alleged conflicts of interest. 

Edited by brian trageskin
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12 minutes ago, thefxbip said:

Oh by the way. The guy seems like he's seeking attention and lying from the straight go as being the best expert and inventor to get it.

https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd (with references links)

It is Dr. Katalin Karikó and her collaborator Dr. Drew Weissman who are more commonly credited with laying the groundwork for mRNA vaccines.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "mRNA vaccines teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies." mRNA vaccines are a new sort of vaccine; the COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna were the first.

On his personal website, Twitter, and LinkedIn, Dr. Robert Malone has been promoting himself as the inventor of mRNA vaccines. This is misleading. In 1989, Malone published a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While this paper is an example of his important contribution to the then-emerging field, it does not make him the inventor of mRNA vaccines.

According to Stat News, "for decades, scientists have dreamed about the seemingly endless possibilities of custom-made messenger RNA or mRNA." According to the New York Times, "For her entire career, Dr. Kariko has focused on messenger RNA, or mRNA — the genetic script that carries DNA instructions to each cell’s protein-making machinery. She was convinced mRNA could be used to instruct cells to make their own medicines, including vaccines."

While Malone's research may have been important, scientific breakthroughs don't always boast a sole "inventor." Instead, they come about through the work of many.

The COVID-19 pandemic has given rise to a lot of potentially dangerous misinformation. For reliable advice on COVID-19, including symptoms, prevention, and available treatment, please refer to the World Health Organization or your national healthcare authority.

 

good deal, thanks for the clarification.  We can now dismiss anything this person says as “disinformation” and scrub any content they post from search results. Thanks.

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At the end of the day im not a scientist nor an expert and as i view things it comes down the fact that if you catch covid there is: risk of death+ short+mid+long terms effects, this is proven and observable and that the vaccine had trials and was deemed safe and that the vast majority of the worry is speculation.

Between the two i choose taking the vaccine because covid has actual and many observable negative effects. It seems to me to be way less of a gamble. As someone with no scientific training that's all how i view things and i trust in the good faith of the health scientific community.

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5 minutes ago, thefxbip said:

At the end of the day im not a scientist nor an expert and as i view things it comes down the fact that if you catch covid there is: risk of death+ short+mid+long terms effects, this is proven and observable and that the vaccine had trials and was deemed safe and that the vast majority of the worry is speculation.

Between the two i choose taking the vaccine because covid has actual and many observable negative effects. It seems to me to be way less of a gamble. As someone with no scientific training that's all how i view things and i trust in the good faith of the health scientific community.

but now rdj isnt gonna buy you a pint!

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No amount of evidence to the contrary will convince someone who thinks they're privy to something that no-one else knows and/or accepts as true. If anything, the voice of the overwhelming majority standing on the proverbial shoulders of  giants of established science and trustworthy sources will make them dig their heels even deeper in the dirt, exclaiming that people are not ready to accept "the truth" about the world populace being controlled, manipulated and lied to in service of some insidiously nefarious entity.

I'm not a scientist, I'm an autodidact (self-taught) so basically everything I claim to know is by definition suspect, but I choose to lean in on the expertise of a couple of thousand years of scientific progress instead of cherry-picked solipsistic self-claimed experts producing algorithm-friendly bullshit videos on the internet with dubious credentials and conspiracy theory rhetoric.

I understand and admit that the COVID vaccines have unknown long-term effects, because there is simply not enough data to analyze and make inferences from, but coupled with active misinformation and conspiratorial campaigning from parties whose motivation for such is suspect we've ended up in a situation where a noisy, sensitive and obnoxious minority is pushing absolute bullshit wherever and whenever they can, cussing people because their beliefs are not uncritically shared - ridiculed, even.

I know people crave certainty, it's an evolutionary need. I know people feel powerless against huge, global things like COVID. I know people love to feel that they're special. I know there's a lot of people spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories because they lack the knowledge to critically assess the information (metaknowledge, Dunning-Kruger being the obvious keywords here) - this is also about education: most bullshit peddlers are (statistically) less educated (so don't take this personally and carpet-bomb me in your qualifications, real or imaginary).

While I subscribe to the adage "I would rather have ques­tions that can’t be an­swered than an­swers that can’t be ques­tioned" (dubiously attributed to Feynman), there is a proper way to question the answers, and it has a method - something the tin-foil helmeted cohort isn't using.

Personally it's really hard for me to constantly and repeatedly encounter bullshit without saying anything, because there's so much of it nowadays. I become condescending and oftentimes even rude, because I just can't fathom wherefore people invest their time and personality into bullshit and sling it around like apes hurling feces at the spectators in the zoo. Like religious zealots they think they're absolutely right and under the impression that if only everyone else understood what they know, the universe would be a better place, all the while making the universe a worse place with their bullshit - and they take immediate offense if their views are not accepted as valid.

Better living through chemistry - less than three weeks to my second jab.

Edited by dcom
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18 hours ago, BCM said:

enough. enough now.

fair warning - this thread will be closed on the 19th july. we need to stop with all the spreading of fear. it's not achieving anything and i want no part of it.

Happy to hear this is ending, the fear needs to stop and the world needs to move on and learn to accept this virus like they do with colds / flu even IF it is more harmful, it's not going away,

Research should be focused on treatments for those who are infected rather than endlessly chasing the impossible goal of "zero covid"

I get that some people think us who're happy for things to be moving towards normal again (yeah right..) think we're selfish but I think the world has been massively selfish in how it's accepted everything that's happened in the last 18 months and the negative impact that it'll have on many generations to come, most of all, the impact this will all have on children. I don't know how many people here experienced trauma as a kid but I did and believe me, it's a life long ordeal to come to terms with and process / let go of, I'd much rather be using my energy else where (like making music!) but instead I so often need to turn my attention towards the trauma as it repeatedly gets in the way of me living my life. Now we're going to have a whole generation of traumatized children who had no say in any of this and it seems to me that no one stopped for a minute to think about the consequences it'd have on them.

All this online censorship of professionals doesn't exactly inspire confidence within me for the direction that humanity and our leadership is headed, this has yet again been example of governments taking advantage of an emergency to seize powers that we'll now never get back.

Reality is, everyone's going to die, there's a billion different ways it could happen and it could be right NOW that it happens, the majority of us haven't been at more risk over the last 18 months than the rest of our lives (unless you want to include risk of suicide) I find it so hard to believe that everything that's happened in the world over the last 18 months was purely in response to a virus that imposed such a low risk on the majority.

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There's always a bunch of fruitcakes with some "alternative ideas". Sometimes it's better that way. And sometimes it just isn't. When it comes to getting rid of this pandemic, it just isn't. But fruitcakes will be fruitcakes. So we just have to accept that. And make sure that the majority does what is right for all. Looking at the US, currently, half of the population being (fully) vaccinated is an issue that needs to be addressed.

What I have no tolerance for though is the kind of cynical attitude where people justify their inaction with the excuse that they don't believe a large enough sample of the population will get vaccinated anyways. So it wouldn't make sense to be vaccinated themselves either. That's just some self-fulfilling BS. If you're a functioning adult you understand the responsibility you have in being part of a greater good. Or part of the ambition.

Quote

rather than endlessly chasing the impossible goal of "zero covid"

That's a rather self-serving misrepresentation of why national policies are the way they currently are. The goal is not "zero covid" you tinfoil capped moron. The goal is to be able to re-open society. And yes, everyone is well aware that covid won't go anywhere soon. But if we manage to re-open societies and get a better grip on the pressure on the healthcare systems, that should be an outcome we could all be happy with. No matter where you stand on getting vaxxed or not. Currently though, our best and most quick way out of this lockdown is through people being vaxxinated. Simple as that. 

And no, this is not an argument against effective treatments. But those treatments will not get us out of the current lock down. It's really that simple. This virus spreads too quick. And given the features of the delta variant, it looks like it evolves into versions spreading ever more quickly. 

The only alternative is to have everyone infected/resistent. If that's you idea of a better alternative, you can explain that to all relatives of covid related deaths. And also give a shout out to the people working in your healthcare system. Because you're basically giving them the middle finger.

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A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. . . . An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning: another instance of the fact that the future lies with the youth.

-- Max Planck.

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1 hour ago, Petajaja said:

Happy to hear this is ending, the fear needs to stop and the world needs to move on and learn to accept this virus like they do with colds / flu even IF it is more harmful, it's not going away,

Research should be focused on treatments for those who are infected rather than endlessly chasing the impossible goal of "zero covid"

I get that some people think us who're happy for things to be moving towards normal again (yeah right..) think we're selfish but I think the world has been massively selfish in how it's accepted everything that's happened in the last 18 months and the negative impact that it'll have on many generations to come, most of all, the impact this will all have on children. I don't know how many people here experienced trauma as a kid but I did and believe me, it's a life long ordeal to come to terms with and process / let go of, I'd much rather be using my energy else where (like making music!) but instead I so often need to turn my attention towards the trauma as it repeatedly gets in the way of me living my life. Now we're going to have a whole generation of traumatized children who had no say in any of this and it seems to me that no one stopped for a minute to think about the consequences it'd have on them.

All this online censorship of professionals doesn't exactly inspire confidence within me for the direction that humanity and our leadership is headed, this has yet again been example of governments taking advantage of an emergency to seize powers that we'll now never get back.

Reality is, everyone's going to die, there's a billion different ways it could happen and it could be right NOW that it happens, the majority of us haven't been at more risk over the last 18 months than the rest of our lives (unless you want to include risk of suicide) I find it so hard to believe that everything that's happened in the world over the last 18 months was purely in response to a virus that imposed such a low risk on the majority.

The ability to “move on” highly depends on which country you live in. As most of us reside in the “rich” countries, being tone deaf to the unimaginable suffering in countries that don’t have access to the more dependable vaccines is unbecoming. Even though I’m not religious, I am soo thankful the vaccines arrived before Delta. I cannot imagine the carnage that would have ensued in 2021, and variants were a big concern of mine last year, before the media really found it to be their next shiny object, same with boosters.

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1 hour ago, Satans Little Helper said:

What we've all heard a million times already.

Some nice projecting you're doing there ?

Your response essentially amounts to 'fuck you' and it's funny that that's always the response anyone gets when they at all question the narrative on this, if everyone's thoughts on it are so stupid it shouldn't be difficult to address them so that person doesn't continue to spread supposed misinformation.

I'm sorry, what exactly was it I said that warrants calling me a "tinfoil capped moron"?

You say the only alternative is for everyone to get infected but that really isn't the case is it? if only the world was so simple that everything could be reduced to black or white.

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For some reason I can't edit my post but I was going to add:

Also to add, I, my partner, my parents, several of my friends have already had Covid and survived it without issue, I see no reason for why we still need to risk out future health with taking a vaccine with no long term safety data. It's funny you mention being part of the greater good and I see this endlessly echo'd now since the pandemic but I didn't see people doing jack for the greater good prior, everyone was more than happy living their selfish little lives ignoring actual racism, actual threat to the environment, actual issues of inequality and injustice in the world.

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33 minutes ago, Petajaja said:

Also to add, I, my partner, my parents, several of my friends have already had Covid and survived it without issue, I see no reason for why we still need to risk out future health with taking a vaccine with no long term safety data.

You're discounting the over four million people who have died from COVID because you and your close family have survived it without vaccinations. That's about as callous and insensitive as you can get towards those perished - you've been statistically very lucky, but then again, as a Westerner with access to high-quality medical care you probably didn't have to worry about it that much anyway - you've played the game using the lowest difficulty setting there is, and now you're gloating.

This is the other kind of bullshit prevalent nowadays, the "me and mine had the disease and it was nothing, the vaccine is unnecessary" crowd - they're equally dangerous compared to the misinformation and conspiracy theory rejects. Just because you've had good luck (or access to high-quality medical care) - or you're fabricating your story for whatever reason - doesn't mean that the rest of humanity needs to suffer and/or die when preventative medicine is available. Yes, there might be long-term effects, but I'm betting that the effect will be millions and millions of saved lives.

Edited by dcom
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Stumbled across a community testing mobile station today, so I obliged.  Very easy.  Gave my e-mail address so they could send my result, which arrived negative within half an hour.  They gave me a pack of home self test Rapid Antigen tests too.   Job done and now I feel ok visiting my vulnerable grandad at the weekend.

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