How does the World view China these days?

[auxien]

58 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

You're right, and I did actually forget about that, but that's also abhorrent.

58 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Arguable but you don't want to go back and forth - weird flex but whatevs.

i dont care to argue with you about it, because you're obviously On One and i honestly couldn't care less about your opinion about my country, particularly based on the ignorance you're displaying ITT the last couple pages. 'dur, oh yeah Guantanamo lol i forgot har hur derp'

58 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

US reported incarceration rate sure, but again, the fixes are quite easy in comparison

i cut off China because if you're comparing 'fixing' America's legal and policing and government policies and at any point claiming it is 'quite easy' (even w the qualifier of 'in comparison') you're a lot less intelligent than i was giving you credit for.

58 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

In China, not so simple, because you have a lot of people in prison for doing things like criticizing the government. If the government turns around and lets those people out, they essentially sanction criticism of the CCP.

thousands of people were assaulted and arrested by their government, right here in the US, just last year, for speaking up against said government. if you don't see that, you're a total idiot.

31 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Also - here's the difference, yes those things happen in the US. In China though, it's policy and law, and people are scared to raise high hell about it, because they'll go to prison for it.

no one said China is not different than the US. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by auxien

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, auxien said:

dur, oh yeah Guantanamo lol i forgot har hur derp

Yeah I legit forgot, sue me.

Edit: probably the reason I forgot is because Guantanamo is supposed to be some super top secret site (that doesn’t make what happens there right) whereas in China this is just, prison. 

2 hours ago, auxien said:

is 'quite easy' (even w the qualifier of 'in comparison')

It is quite easy in comparison, because it's easily observable, and it's very clear what the problem is, because transparency still exists in the US justice system even if it is fucked up.

2 hours ago, auxien said:

thousands of people were assaulted and arrested by their government, right here in the US, just last year, for speaking up against said government. if you don't see that, you're a total idiot.

See this: https://forum.watmm.com/topic/98414-how-does-the-world-view-china-these-days/?do=findComment&comment=2866182

 

2 hours ago, auxien said:

no one said China is not different than the US. 

Except for Zeff.

Again, the whole point is not to say that the US doesn't have it's problems, because surely you do (we have issues up here in Canada as well, not quite to the level of the US, but they exist), rather, a comparison with China is not valid because the situation in China is so much worse. Like it's hard to fathom how much worse it is in China. And when you have tankies spouting off ignorant bullshit about how China would never use military power to achieve foreign policy goals, or that they're a communist nation on the rise to prosperity through communism, and that we can ignore the truly horrific human rights violations because some of those same issues exist in the US, it's pretty goddamn gross.

2 hours ago, auxien said:

i honestly couldn't care less about your opinion about my country

You cared enough to quote me tons, cheers

[ignatius]

btw q good GITMO related movie is The Mauritanian. relevant to this thread i guess. based on true story so facts + hollywood dramatizations it still holds up. well written etc.

 

 

[zlemflolia]

50 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Except for Zeff.

Again, the whole point is not to say that the US doesn't have it's problems, because surely you do (we have issues up here in Canada as well, not quite to the level of the US, but they exist), rather, a comparison with China is not valid because the situation in China is so much worse. Like it's hard to fathom how much worse it is in China. And when you have tankies spouting off ignorant bullshit about how China would never use military power to achieve foreign policy goals, or that they're a communist nation on the rise to prosperity through communism, and that we can ignore the truly horrific human rights violations because some of those same issues exist in the US, it's pretty goddamn gross.

You cared enough to quote me tons, cheers

itd be great if we could just like not lie about what other people have said

your sentences don't even make sense.  communist nation on the rise to prosperity through communism>? they havent achieved communism, they haven't even achieved socialism

they are led by their communist party and their stated goal, one which they seem to be moving towards, is the achievement of socialism. the same cant be said for any openly capitalist states

we all know communism is better than capitalism if you could achieve it, yet capitalist states don't even bother stating that they hope to achieve it one day, they in fact actively oppose it militarily hence the current state of the world and the ruin facing anyone who tries socialism, and the reason is clear - class conflict

i am communist.  am i communism or have i achieved communism? no

china is communist.  is their economic mode of production communist or have they achieved communism? no

Edited April 9, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[ignatius]

cum sandwich. 

lol

[auxien]

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

3 hours ago, auxien said:

i honestly couldn't care less about your opinion about my country

You cared enough to quote me tons, cheers

you're not cute. 

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

3 hours ago, auxien said:

no one said China is not different than the US. 

Except for Zeff.

where'd he say this? seriously, i ain't read every word of the last few pages so please do quote it. 

 

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

rather, a comparison with China is not valid because the situation in China is so much worse.

this is also very dumb. comparisons that are illuminating are valid.

[chenGOD]

53 minutes ago, auxien said:

you're not cute. 

where'd he say this? seriously, i ain't read every word of the last few pages so please do quote it. 

 

this is also very dumb. comparisons that are illuminating are valid.

I never claimed to be.

Somewhere back there. 
 

It’s not an illuminating comparison. Unless you mean it illuminates the gap in a pretty fucking horrific place and a somewhat shitty place. 

[Braintree]

WATMM: "We're fans of intelligent dance music, arguably the most technologically and compositionally advanced form of electronic music."

*gets caught in a pissing contest about who has fewer prisoners*

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

china is communist.  is their economic mode of production communist or have they achieved communism? no

Lol wut?

2 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

we all know communism is better than capitalism

Uh no. 

52 minutes ago, Braintree said:

WATMM: "We're fans of intelligent dance music, arguably the most technologically and compositionally advanced form of electronic music."

*gets caught in a cumming contest about who has fewer prisoners*

Better?

[zlemflolia]

34 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Lol wut?

Uh no. 

Better?

classless moneyless stateless society not better? clearly is if you can do it. your complaint is your perception on the methods

[ignatius]

[auxien]

55 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Somewhere back there. 

It’s not an illuminating comparison. Unless you mean it illuminates the gap in a pretty fucking horrific place and a somewhat shitty place. 

so your argument is that Zeff said a thing but you can’t prove it? yeah that’s a good look. 

‘don’t compare significant and similar aspects of two of the largest and most important countries in the world right now, that can in no way be illuminating’ is a thing i’m sure many very intelligent people would say, chen. 

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

3 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Except for Zeff.

Again, the whole point is not to say that the US doesn't have it's problems, because surely you do (we have issues up here in Canada as well, not quite to the level of the US, but they exist), rather, a comparison with China is not valid because the situation in China is so much worse. Like it's hard to fathom how much worse it is in China. And when you have tankies spouting off ignorant bullshit about how China would never use military power to achieve foreign policy goals, or that they're a communist nation on the rise to prosperity through communism, and that we can ignore the truly horrific human rights violations because some of those same issues exist in the US, it's pretty goddamn gross.

 

Expand  

itd be great if we could just like not lie about what other people have said

your sentences don't even make sense.  communist nation on the rise to prosperity through communism>? they havent achieved communism, they haven't even achieved socialism

they are led by their communist party and their stated goal, one which they seem to be moving towards, is the achievement of socialism. the same cant be said for any openly capitalist states

we all know communism is better than capitalism if you could achieve it, yet capitalist states don't even bother stating that they hope to achieve it one day, they in fact actively oppose it militarily hence the current state of the world and the ruin facing anyone who tries socialism, and the reason is clear - class conflict

i am communist.  am i communism or have i achieved communism? no

china is communist.  is their economic mode of production communist or have they achieved communism? no

 

Since I don't particularly like being called a liar:

Per you calling the US and China the same:

From this post:

Quote

so basically the same surveillance the US does to its citizens, significantly better treatment than it gives to regions suffering from terrorism (bombing them all), and the same police treatment the US gives to minorities.

And from this post:

Quote

i'm not sitting here trying to say the US is worse about every single bad thing about china, but it's the same in the US.

Per you saying that China dragged itself out poverty by communism (you actually said socialism so still wrong just with different terminology)

On 2/23/2021 at 9:51 PM, cyanobacteria said:

china did not drag anyone out of poverty through capitalism, but by socialism

Per you ignoring atrocities

On 2/23/2021 at 9:59 PM, cyanobacteria said:

my memories of the general takes of these people, and I'm making no personal claims here, is that the Uyghur "genocide" is CIA propaganda mostly propagated by some dude named Adrian Zens, surrounding China's method of deradicalizing extremist muslims and giving women free access to birth control technologies to improve their living conditions, as well as providing education to them all, and that some evidence suggesting this is that most muslim majority countries support China's policies whereas those speaking out the most are the very same countries murdering countless muslims in the middle east in their oil wars.  i can't say it doesn't make sense to have such a perspective

So no, I'm not lying about the things you're saying.

25 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

classless moneyless stateless society not better? clearly is if you can do it. your complaint is your perception on the methods

A classless society would be, sure, although we haven't seen one of those in, ever.

Moneyless no, stateless no. The communist mode of production is wasteful and inefficient and if you take a basic macro class you can figure out why. But let's leave the econ lessons for another thread and talk about China?

The thing here is that I may come across as someone who hates China, when what I actually despise is their government. Chinese culture (both classical and modern) has so much to offer. Incredible films, incredible stories, great thinkers, some incredible food as well (I do prefer Korean and Japanese but can not deny that there is some amazing Chinese food).

 

 

 

[zlemflolia]

1 minute ago, chenGOD said:

 

Since I don't particularly like being called a liar:

Per you calling the US and China the same:

From this post:

And from this post:

Per you saying that China dragged itself out poverty by communism (you actually said socialism so still wrong just with different terminology)

Per you ignoring atrocities

my memories of the general takes of these people, and I'm making no personal claims here, is that the Uyghur "genocide" is CIA propaganda mostly propagated by some dude named Adrian Zens, surrounding China's method of deradicalizing extremist muslims and giving women free access to birth control technologies to improve their living conditions, as well as providing education to them all, and that some evidence suggesting this is that most muslim majority countries support China's policies whereas those speaking out the most are the very same countries murdering countless muslims in the middle east in their oil wars.  i can't say it doesn't make sense to have such a perspective

So no, I'm not lying about the things you're saying.

A classless society would be, sure, although we haven't seen one of those in, ever.

Moneyless no, stateless no. The communist mode of production is wasteful and inefficient and if you take a basic macro class you can figure out why. But let's leave the econ lessons for another thread and talk about China?

The thing here is that I may come across as someone who hates China, when what I actually despise is their government. Chinese culture (both classical and modern) has so much to offer. Incredible films, incredible stories, great thinkers, some incredible food as well (I do prefer Korean and Japanese but can not deny that there is some amazing Chinese food).

 

Expand  

Expand  

 

 

every one of your commentaries on the quotes from me that you posted are all nonsense and wrong

[chenGOD]

7 minutes ago, auxien said:

so your argument is that Zeff said a thing but you can’t prove it? yeah that’s a good look. 

‘don’t compare significant and similar aspects of two of the largest and most important countries in the world right now, that can in no way be illuminating’ is a thing i’m sure many very intelligent people would say, chen. 

I made a nice little post just above, I was on my phone before but thought better to back up what I said.

Not very similar, but surely significant. So what magic light bulb went off when comparing the Chinese and US criminal justice systems? Don't do it like the Chinese do? Or that the US criminal justice system needs reforming? I'm not intelligent but even I knew these things.

4 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

every one of your commentaries on the quotes from me that you posted are all nonsense and wrong

I didn't provide any commentary, simply quoting your words back to you.

[auxien]

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

Not very similar, but surely significant. So what magic light bulb went off when comparing the Chinese and US criminal justice systems? Don't do it like the Chinese do? Or that the US criminal justice system needs reforming? I'm not intelligent but even I knew these things.

seeing how a country like China, far closer to a 'police state' (whatever that nebulous term represents in my Western cultural mindsest) than many, is really not very far removed from what i already knew to be true of America's policing (and of course America in some ways even being provably worse) is to me illuminating. i can line up the things i know or am learning into columns and measure them myself. that's often a helpful way for me to learn. 

but if you think being a cunt to others because they find something interesting or insightful in a way that you don't is a better means of interaction on a forum, then please do continue. it makes you look very smart, i promise, and we're all much smarter for your last few pages of insight, thanks. i mean, you've even got goDel out from whatever rock he's been under and got him reacting with those who disagree with you, so you know, you're definitely on the right track if he's taking your side. 

7 hours ago, auxien said:

no one said China is not different than the US. 

i was wrong about this, for the record. Zeff was definitely stacking them basically 1-to-1 in these posts you quoted chen, but he also wasn't very far off to do so in the ways he did imo. equating them a bit more than i would, but the comparisons and similarities are valid (at least mostly: i can't speak to the 'treatment to regions suffering from terrorism' aspect as i'm pretty unfamiliar with China's current status here, and admittedly only partly familiar with America's)

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

Per you calling the US and China the same:

From this post:

Quote

so basically the same surveillance the US does to its citizens, significantly better treatment than it gives to regions suffering from terrorism (bombing them all), and the same police treatment the US gives to minorities.

And from this post:

Quote

i'm not sitting here trying to say the US is worse about every single bad thing about china, but it's the same in the US.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by auxien

[Extralife]

[ignatius]

 

[Hugh Mughnus]

P disappointed to see you slinging shade aux. No offense. Just not used to it I suppose.

I don’t see how Chen’s posts are so offensive to the point you’d respond as you have. 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Hugh Mughnus

[chenGOD]

38 minutes ago, auxien said:

seeing how a country like China, far closer to a 'police state' (whatever that nebulous term represents in my Western cultural mindsest) than many, is really not very far removed from what i already knew to be true of America's policing (and of course America in some ways even being provably worse)

So far no one has provided anything that shows America is probably worse, or even similar. 

 

39 minutes ago, auxien said:

but if you think being a cunt to others because they find something interesting or insightful in a way that you don't is a better means of interaction on a forum, then please do continue. it makes you look very smart, i promise, and we're all much smarter for your last few pages of insight

If you think I’ve been a cunt to you, sorry. I’ve been nothing but straightforward, except perhaps the last line about illuminating things. Don’t think I’ve been particularly cuntish to anyone except zeff, because he is a churlish cad. (Where did you see goDel?)
 

I simply do not find it credible that people are seriously comparing the US and Chinese criminal justice systems in any meaningful way, as they are not even based on the same legal system (US is common law while China is Civil).

As an example, police in China can detain suspects up to 37 days before a prosecutor approves the arrest.

The penalty for theft in China can land you life imprisonment. 
 

I dunno man, but I gotta think even as a POC, you’d rather be in the American justice system than in China.

[ignatius]

50 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

So far no one has provided anything that shows America is probably worse 

in america.. might have to share a cell w/bill cosby.

[chenGOD]

13 minutes ago, ignatius said:

in america.. might have to share a cell w/bill cosby.

[ambermonk]

Just now, ignatius said:

in america.. might have to share a cell w/bill cosby.

He turn the bootyhole into a Jello pudding cup

[auxien]

On 4/9/2021 at 11:10 PM, Hugh Mughnus said:

P disappointed to see you slinging shade aux. No offense. Just not used to it I suppose.

I don’t see how Chen’s posts are so offensive to the point you’d respond as you have. 

no offense taken, because i honestly don't care about how i'm perceived or if i'm disappointing others. i say what i say when i choose to, & whatever follows is out of my hands man. me calling chen a cunt because he's shitting on a way that others learn and choose to view information is valid imo: trying to discount others choice of reading, absorbing, enjoying, learning, etc. is worth calling out 100% of the time. maybe he didn't intend them that way, but that's what was underlying his constant argumentative tack, so fuck him, he was being a cunt and got called it....but also who gives a shit? i don't think he's crying about it, if i'd gathered he was the type to get up in arms over something like that i would've been a bit more tactful. if he told me he was hurt, i'd care and i'd PM him about it, i ain't got no ill will towards him or anyone much at all (even Schlitze is being mostly decent lately ffs! lol) i've agreed with chen on plenty of things, but if i disagree and i think it's worth pointing out i'll do so. i've been a cunt plenty of times, and i wouldn't take offense to being called one when i was. that's how i am, for better or worse. 

On 4/9/2021 at 11:23 PM, chenGOD said:

So far no one has provided anything that shows America is probably worse, or even similar. 

American incarceration rates per capita was something like 600/100k, China's was approx 100/100k. 6 times as many people as a portion of the total population incarcerated is worse, full stop, end of that. even if China's numbers are fudged as you've been implying over and over (and may be totally valid) i doubt even then the 'real' numbers are worse than America. 

that's one example. China is worse than America in some ways no doubt, as everyone admits. this is a point with Zeff more than me, ultimately.

On 4/9/2021 at 11:23 PM, chenGOD said:

If you think I’ve been a cunt to you, sorry. I’ve been nothing but straightforward, except perhaps the last line about illuminating things. Don’t think I’ve been particularly cuntish to anyone except zeff, because he is a churlish cad. (Where did you see goDel?

being a cunt, even to Zeff who i've surely disagreed with plenty, deserves to be noted. i don't mind being called a shit if i am being a shit. sometimes it's valid. i don't think being a cunt about others' learning was valid, and i didn't see much in what Zeff said to be a cunt to him specifically either...but i'm sure not his keeper. don't be a cunt unless it's warranted is my only point.

goDel's been reacting is all. stay that way g  jk idc goDel hope you're well but also glad you're not much chatting here it's for the best lol

On 4/9/2021 at 11:23 PM, chenGOD said:

As an example, police in China can detain suspects up to 37 days before a prosecutor approves the arrest.

The penalty for theft in China can land you life imprisonment. 
 

I dunno man, but I gotta think even as a POC, you’d rather be in the American justice system than in China.

'37 days before prosecution approves arrest' yeah.... so in America there's Guantanamo but also, y'know, trumped up charges (arrested for resisting arrest!), arrests, imprisonments, and executions by cops throughout America, at the borders and inner cities and basically anywhere the feds or local authorities see it fit to bend the rules to fit their cause. these are documented manyfold, the repercussions are often few if at all. you know this. 

i'm not a POC so i can't speak to their experience but based on what i've heard and has been well-reported, there's plenty that is very, very, very bad. i'm not familiar enough with the Chinese justice system to say that it's a 1-to-1 or not.

i'm a bit drunk and i'm honestly not really interested in the Chinese justice system so idk why i'm even discussing this aspect of things so  

[chenGOD]

@auxien good ramble. I don't even think I've been that much of a cunt to zeff, who is definitely not arguing in good faith. Also you’re right I’m not crying about it. I’d still have a beer with anyone on this forum, even zeff. 

1 hour ago, auxien said:

i'm a bit drunk and i'm honestly not really interested in the Chinese justice system

We're in a thread about China. Let's keep it that way, and we can discuss the US in the US thread. I will continue to say that China's criminal justice system is far worse because while all the things you say happen in the US are true, they are also against the law in the US. And sometimes that shit gets called out (for example the recent case with the cops harassing the officer from some branch of the military - he is suing them). In China, that shit is baked right into the law.

I'll also say that in the US, while prisoner rights are pretty minimal, at least many prisons have libraries, internet access, exercise facilities etc. In China, prisoners are lucky to get a walk around the prison courtyard, before it's back to their cell with 6 to 14 people in it.

And while black people and other POC are often arrested on trumped charges, there is at least something to fight against (the charge being trumped up). The Uighur in the detention camps are arrested not for any trumped up drug charge or driving while black. They are detained (not arrested) simply because of their ethnicity - there is no charge they can fight.

Anyhow, more on how the rest of the world views China:

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14275872