How does the World view China these days?

[Hugh Mughnus]

@auxienfair man I’m just not used to seeing you grompy is all, used to you being v zen.

cheers  

[ignatius]

27 minutes ago, Stickfigger said:

a massive pack of cunts

get outta my head!

[prdctvsm]

45 minutes ago, Stickfigger said:

you are all

*youze's*

[zlemflolia]

3 hours ago, chenGOD said:

@auxien good ramble. I don't even think I've been that much of a cunt to zeff, who is definitely not arguing in good faith. Also you’re right I’m not crying about it. I’d still have a beer with anyone on this forum, even zeff. 

We're in a thread about China. Let's keep it that way, and we can discuss the US in the US thread. I will continue to say that China's criminal justice system is far worse because while all the things you say happen in the US are true, they are also against the law in the US. And sometimes that shit gets called out (for example the recent case with the cops harassing the officer from some branch of the military - he is suing them). In China, that shit is baked right into the law.

I'll also say that in the US, while prisoner rights are pretty minimal, at least many prisons have libraries, internet access, exercise facilities etc. In China, prisoners are lucky to get a walk around the prison courtyard, before it's back to their cell with 6 to 14 people in it.

And while black people and other POC are often arrested on trumped charges, there is at least something to fight against (the charge being trumped up). The Uighur in the detention camps are arrested not for any trumped up drug charge or driving while black. They are detained (not arrested) simply because of their ethnicity - there is no charge they can fight.

Anyhow, more on how the rest of the world views China:

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14275872

dont know why you think im not arguing in good faith.  youre really naive about america's justice system.  do you know any minorities who have been abused by the police? i know people who have been continually put back into prison on fake charges, forced to pay for their own legal procedings when they don't have money, charged again when they can't pay it, things like this.  "and sometimes that shit gets called out" no it doesn't that's why you hear about it in whatever these "sometimes" are.

prisons in the US do not in general have libraries, internet access, or exercise facilities.  the libraries have severely limited content sometimes restricted to religious content, they don't even have phone access for less than $10/min let alone internet access unless they can smuggle a smartphone in through their asshole, and the supposed exercise facilities are a great place to get murdered with a barbell if you're using the exercise facilities currently claimed by a race other than your own

then there's other issues like a complete lack of access to medical care, trans women being put into men's prisons then raped to death, women being punished for having home-made dildos, etc.

Edited April 12, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[Limo]

13 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

dont know why you think im not arguing in good faith.  youre really naive about america's justice system.  do you know any minorities who have been abused by the police? i know people who have been continually put back into prison on fake charges, forced to pay for their own legal procedings when they don't have money, charged again when they can't pay it, things like this.  "and sometimes that shit gets called out" no it doesn't that's why you hear about it in whatever these "sometimes" are.

prisons in the US do not in general have libraries, internet access, or exercise facilities.  the libraries have severely limited content sometimes restricted to religious content, they don't even have phone access for less than $10/min let alone internet access unless they can smuggle a smartphone in through their asshole, and the supposed exercise facilities are a great place to get murdered with a barbell if you're using the exercise facilities currently claimed by a race other than your own

then there's other issues like a complete lack of access to medical care, trans women being put into men's prisons then raped to death, women being punished for having home-made dildos, etc.

You’re not wrong but you should also read

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/china/

[zlemflolia]

14 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

You’re not wrong but you should also read

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/china/

china is definitely not perfect and nobody reasonable would claim it, but in many aspects the US is significantly worse and is actively engaging in anti-china propaganda efforts to foment a new cold war with china, these narratives must be countered and at least mentioned otherwise the US's anti-communist goals are being tacitly accepted.

that said many of the complaints in this report seem biased to begin with. repeatedly mentioning "over 4,600 dead from COVID" to reiterate the issue of supposed social media censorship regarding the issue when that's a testament to how well China handled the issue in comparison to the US which has so far half a million deaths.  if anyone should be writing reports it should be China writing reports about the US

[ignatius]

17 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

china is definitely not perfect and nobody reasonable would claim it, but in many aspects the US is significantly worse and is actively engaging in anti-china propaganda efforts to foment a new cold war with china, these narratives must be countered and at least mentioned otherwise the US's anti-communist goals are being tacitly accepted.

that said many of the complaints in this report seem biased to begin with. repeatedly mentioning "over 4,600 dead from COVID" to reiterate the issue of supposed social media censorship regarding the issue when that's a testament to how well China handled the issue in comparison to the US which has so far half a million deaths.  if anyone should be writing reports it should be China writing reports about the US

not disagreeing that there are people in america w/anti communist agendas... but china also has an agenda.  the party or the government.. however we refer to it.. has many in lock step w/its agenda. there's brainwashing going on. it's a group think.. group delusion. china's history is full of radical movements that are cultural in nature and usually at the behest of a central figure who has an agenda as well. 

and yeah.. america, the state department, 'soft power' (which was diminished under trump), and the world bank, WTO, multinational corporations etc.. all have agendas.. sometimes they work hand in hand and sometimes against each other. there's constant power struggles. 

if america is pushing anti communist messages it's just attempts at manipulation for some end. a new cold war? what? could be multiple things.  i think also, many younger people aren't buying that shit. many are but a lot of people have seen this movie before. there's always going to be a segment of the population that eats up the messaging... whatever it is. 

we're not all immune. it takes vigilance sometimes. 

just rambling.. 

[zlemflolia]

2 minutes ago, ignatius said:

not disagreeing that there are people in america w/anti communist agendas... but china also has an agenda.  the party or the government.. however we refer to it.. has many in lock step w/its agenda. there's brainwashing going on. it's a group think.. group delusion. china's history is full of radical movements that are cultural in nature and usually at the behest of a central figure who has an agenda as well. 

and yeah.. america, the state department, 'soft power' (which was diminished under trump), and the world bank, WTO, multinational corporations etc.. all have agendas.. sometimes they work hand in hand and sometimes against each other. there's constant power struggles. 

if america is pushing anti communist messages it's just attempts at manipulation for some end. a new cold war? what? could be multiple things.  i think also, many younger people aren't buying that shit. many are but a lot of people have seen this movie before. there's always going to be a segment of the population that eats up the messaging... whatever it is. 

we're not all immune. it takes vigilance sometimes. 

just rambling.. 

it's opposition to communism and socialism, that is the end goal, it's not using opposition to communism to achieve some other indirect goal.  to call china's agenda groupthink and brainwashing is something i can't describe as anything other than sinophobia and xenophobia.  i would completely call america's and the west's capitalism brainwashing and groupthink given how many people literally don't even understand the possibility of alternatives

[zlemflolia]

application of Mao's mass line technique means it should not be a surprise if the party is lockstep with the people but rather an indicator of good representation.  given the CCP's high support ratings from the people it's even less of a surprise.  contrast this to bourgeois electoral democracy and it becomes clear why the ironic scenario of democracy being doubted by the west unless the people hate their government and openly express it is truly absurd

[ignatius]

it's opposition to communism and socialism, that is the end goal, it's not using opposition to communism to achieve some other indirect goal.  to call china's agenda groupthink and brainwashing is something i can't describe as anything other than sinophobia and xenophobia.  i would completely call america's and the west's capitalism brainwashing and groupthink given how many people literally don't even understand the possibility of alternatives

that's kind of the point.. we're all in glass houses throwing stones. maybe i watched the recent adam curtis doc too many times and have the china narrative from it in my head pretty deep. 
there's some really interesting history in that series. 
but casually in other docs and news coverage.. the differences in cultures as instructed from the top are vast. 
anyway... in america there's always competing narratives within government. internal power struggles are constant. there's very different positions on just about many things even within an administration. but srsly, the military, congress.. different committees.. they all act on their own in some ways when it comes to working behind the scenes because they all often think they know what's best or they have an agenda. 
 
This kind of shit is pretty weird:


“China launches hotline to report ‘illegal’ comments about Communist party
Public encouraged to report internet users who cast doubt on party’s version of history ahead of its 100th anniversary”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/12/china-launches-hotline-to-report-comments-about-communist-party

[Limo]

1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said:

china is definitely not perfect and nobody reasonable would claim it, but in many aspects the US is significantly worse and is actively engaging in anti-china propaganda efforts to foment a new cold war with china, these narratives must be countered and at least mentioned otherwise the US's anti-communist goals are being tacitly accepted.

that said many of the complaints in this report seem biased to begin with. repeatedly mentioning "over 4,600 dead from COVID" to reiterate the issue of supposed social media censorship regarding the issue when that's a testament to how well China handled the issue in comparison to the US which has so far half a million deaths.  if anyone should be writing reports it should be China writing reports about the US

I think your fondness for the concept of communism clouds your vision a bit. Communist or not the government of China is brutal and harsh (something they would themselves probably readily admit). Amnesty is fairly objective in pointing that out (just as Amnesty is fairly objective in pointing out human rights abuses by the US).

[chenGOD]

3 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

dont know why you think im not arguing in good faith. 

Because of stuff like this:

2 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

given the CCP's high support ratings from the people

You know why the CCP gets high support ratings?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-27/in-chinas-universities-targeted-attacks-on-intellectuals-raise-memories-of-the-cultural-revolution

 

 

 

[zero]

7 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

given the CCP's high support ratings from the people it's even less of a surprise. 

simple question here, I'm not trying to get into some sort of poop slinging contest - do you think fear of the CCP has anything to do with that? do you think a high approval rating is a indicator of a healthy society?

idk, maybe I'm too brainwashed, but any place that has a massively high approval rating of how their government is doing raises alarm bells and not high fives all around. 

[Limo]

Fear is part of it, of course, but the fact of the matter is that living standards have improved immensely in China during the past 30 years. Something like half a billion people have been lifted out of less than one dollar a day poverty under the auspices of the CCP.

So when Chinese people support their government, that’s not because they’re brainwashed but because for the vast majority of them their government has been very, very good.

And I think this is something we in the West tend not to take account enough, that as far as improving the livelihoods of its people is concerned post Mao the CCP is the most successful government in the world. No other government even comes close.

 

[chenGOD]

11 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

Fear is part of it, of course, but the fact of the matter is that living standards have improved immensely in China during the past 30 years. Something like half a billion people have been lifted out of less than one dollar a day poverty under the auspices of the CCP.

 

This is of course important to acknowledge. Under the policies of Deng to reverse the damage caused by Mao, and opening the country up to global capital, the number of people that have risen out of poverty has been tremendous.

I would say that without the fear component, the current government would face a lot more criticism in public.

2014: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/30/china-repression-dissent-xi-jinping

2015: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/19/xi-jinping-does-china-truly-love-big-daddy-xi-or-fear-him

2019: https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/3006516/xi-jinpings-intolerance-dissent-within-government-heightens

2020: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/7/7/china-launches-political-policing-task-force-state-media

[chenGOD]

28 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

as far as improving the livelihoods of its people is concerned post Mao the CCP is the most successful government in the world. No other government even comes close.

In terms of overall numbers rising out of poverty, yes. But South Korea blows away the CCP in raising the prosperity of its people.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/china/south-korea?sc=XE34

For a nation of comparable size, India is the obvious choice. They kept up with China until the mid-90's, but poor government policy decisions in the late 80s early 90s led to disastrous results, as outlined in this paper.

[Limo]

32 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

n terms of overall numbers rising out of poverty, yes. But South Korea blows away the CCP in raising the prosperity of its people.

Ah, yes, I forgot about that, sorry. I guess I’m not old enough to remember South Korea was once a ridiculously poor country. 

 

37 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

For a nation of comparable size, India is the obvious choice. They kept up with China until the mid-90's, but poor government policy decisions in the late 80s early 90s led to disastrous results, as outlined in this paper.

I thought you might be exaggerating, seeing as that India has a sizable middle class now, but no, “poor government policy decisions” is probably a fair description:

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/china/india?sector=GDP+per+capita+(Dollars)&sc=XE34#tbl

[zlemflolia]

3 hours ago, zero said:

simple question here, I'm not trying to get into some sort of poop slinging contest - do you think fear of the CCP has anything to do with that? do you think a high approval rating is a indicator of a healthy society?

idk, maybe I'm too brainwashed, but any place that has a massively high approval rating of how their government is doing raises alarm bells and not high fives all around. 

the chinese people have massive involvement in the CCP. almost everyone has a family member in the CCP. they actively alleviate poverty and improve material conditions for the people.

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Because of stuff like this:

You know why the CCP gets high support ratings?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-27/in-chinas-universities-targeted-attacks-on-intellectuals-raise-memories-of-the-cultural-revolution

 

 

 

the current CCP is critical of Mao's cultural revolution and upholds Mao with critical support

[zlemflolia]

"Poor government policy" in India is a very apt description.  Specifically the policy of being capitalist instead of socialist like what China's success rests upon

As for South Korea, yeah no shit it had good economic results given that it's basically a US client state in the region, and of course not for people the government targets like North Korean "defectors" tricked to visit South Korea during their working trips in China so that they can be forced to stay and violently coerced into spreading anti-DPRK propaganda

that's not even taking into account that North Korea had superior economic development to South Korea due to its socialist path and until the fall of the USSR.  let's see how great South Korea will do if the US collapsed

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[zkom]

DPRK apologism is some next level kool aid drinking

[ignatius]

china and india are very different places regardless of whatever system they operate under. 

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said:

"Poor government policy" in India is a very apt description.  Specifically the policy of being capitalist instead of socialist like what China's success rests upon

India's socialist period (from the 50s to the late 70s) resulted in far lower growth than their market-reform oriented period. The 90s saw them revert back to import substitution industrialization, which has never worked, so don't know why they thought it would work then.

1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said:

North Korea had superior economic development to South Korea due to its socialist path and until the fall of the USSR.  let's see how great South Korea will do if the US collapsed

He's actually right - but the change in fortunes happened well before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the downturn for DPRK started in the late 60s early 70s, and DPRK is not, and has never been a communist state. It's also not just a simple as South Korea being a US client state, but since I don't have time nor the desire to give a lesson on South Korean industrialization I'll just suggest reading Alice Amsden and Ha-Joon Chang.

 

1 hour ago, cyanobacteria said:

almost everyone has a family member in the CCP.

The CCP has 92 million members. China's population is approx 1.4 Billion. So no, not everyone has a family member in the CCP.

Much like in the DPRK, CCP members in the communities are often unknown, and will report infractions of Xi Jinping thought to the authorities. It's a pretty classic technique.

[zlemflolia]

52 minutes ago, zkom said:

DPRK apologism is some next level kool aid drinking

is the coolaid more or less tasty than US apologism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_North_Korea

>During the campaign, conventional weapons such as explosives, incendiary bombs, and napalm destroyed nearly all of the country's cities and towns, including an estimated 85 percent of its buildings

>

In the wake of the Kanggye attack, FEAF began an intensive firebombing campaign that quickly incinerated multiple Korean cities. Three weeks after the attacks began, the air force assessed the damage as follows:^[5][9]

• Ch'osan - 85%
• Hoeryong (Hoeryŏng)- 90%
• Huich'on (Hŭich'ŏn)- 75%
• Kanggye - 75%
• Kointong - 90%
• Manp'ochin - 95%
• Namsi - 90%
• Sakchu - 75%
• Sinuichu - 60%
• Uichu - 20%

On 17 November 1950, General MacArthur told U.S. Ambassador to Korea John J. Muccio, "Unfortunately, this area will be left a desert." By "this area" MacArthur meant the entire area between "our present positions and the border."^[10]

^>On 25 June 1951, General O'Donnell, commander of the Far Eastern Air Force Bomber Command, testified in answer to a question from Senator John C. Stennis ("...North Korea has been virtually destroyed, hasn't it?): "Oh, yes; ... I would say that the entire, almost the entire Korean Peninsula is just a terrible mess. Everything is destroyed. There is nothing standing worthy of the name ... Just before the Chinese came in we were grounded. There were no more targets in Korea."^[12]

At the conclusion of the war, the Air Force assessed the destruction of twenty-two major cities as follows:^[15]

City	% estimated destruction
Anju	15%
Chinnampo (Namp'o)	80%
Chongju (Chŏngju)	60%
Haeju	75%
Hamhung (Hamhŭng)	80%
Hungnam (Hŭngnam)	85%
Hwangju (Hwangju County)	97%
Kanggye	60% (reduced from previous estimate of 75%)
Kunu-ri (Kunu-dong)	100%
Kyomipo (Songnim)	80%
Musan	5%
Najin (Rashin)	5%
Pyongyang	75%
Sariwon (Sariwŏn)	95%
Sinanju	100%
Sinuiju	50%
Songjin (Kimchaek)	50%
Sunan (Sunan-guyok)	90%
Unggi (Sonbong County)	5%
Wonsan (Wŏnsan)	80%

The bombing campaign destroyed almost every substantial building in North Korea.^[16][17] The war's highest-ranking U.S. POW, U.S. Major General William F. Dean,^[18] reported that the majority of North Korean cities and villages he saw were either rubble or snow-covered wasteland.^[19][20] North Korean factories, schools, hospitals, and government offices were forced to move underground.^[21] In November 1950, the North Korean leadership instructed the population to build dugouts and mud huts and to dig tunnels, in order to solve the acute housing problem.^[22]

 

^{needless to say, FUCK AMERIKKKA}

9 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

The CCP has 92 million members. China's population is approx 1.4 Billion. So no, not everyone has a family member in the CCP.

firstly i said almost everyone not everyone.  secondly that's roughly 1/15 people in the party, I'm sure most people can trace more than 15 living family members

[zlemflolia]

>Public statements by the U.N. command obfuscated the extent of the destruction of North Korean communities with euphemisms, for example by listing the destruction of thousands of individual "buildings" rather than towns or villages as such, or reporting attacks on North Korean supply centers located in a city with language suggesting that the entire city constituted a "supply center."^[5]

 

fuck america

[chenGOD]

Lol you know the North Koreans started the war right?

It's 15% of the population. CCP families get more family members promoted. So I strongly doubt that it would be that simple.