How does the World view China these days?

[zlemflolia]

48 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

The Korean War got pretty brutal, but genocide is a pretty specific thing: mass murder with intent to eradicate a people. The North Korean government that the US would have liked to eradicate was not a people and slaughtering civilians by itself is not mass murder with intent to eradicate.

Similarly, the horrible things the North Korean government is doing to North Koreans - enslaving them, starving them, sending them out to forced labor camps in Siberia, etc - aren't genocide just really serious human rights abuses that make whatever the US justice system does to Black people look like kindergarten in comparison. It does not want to eradicate its own people, after all.

By the same logic, proving that China is engaging in genocide in Xinjiang is going to be very difficult, as there most likely isn't any executive order or even desire to *eradicate* the Uyghurs - just to *pacify* them, which is something different (although, if you end up on the wrong end of the pacifying stick the results may very well be the same).

This is why, when Canada and The Netherlands and maybe some others decided to make show about condemning the Chinese government for genocide people who were experts on this sort of thing said that was a very dumb thing to do. It's much easier to drag someone to court for human rights abuses as that only requires you to show the effects a policy has. For genocide you need to prove *intent*.

I don't care about words and definitions created by agreements and courts.  If the US bombing NK into the stone age isn't genocide but China forcing Uyghurs to learn to read is, then that just means the genocide in Xinjiang is not nearly as bad as many of the things occurring elsewhere.  Let's talk about the genocide of the Palestinians being financially supported and endorsed by the US

[Limo]

20 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

I don't care about words and definitions created by agreements and courts.  If the US bombing NK into the stone age isn't genocide but China forcing Uyghurs to learn to read is, then that just means the genocide in Xinjiang is not nearly as bad as many of the things occurring elsewhere.  Let's talk about the genocide of the Palestinians being financially supported and endorsed by the US

You may not care about courts and the definitions they make up but I’m sure you’d agree there’s a difference between what was done by the Germans to the Herero, the Turks to the Armenians and the Germans (again) to the Jews on the one hand and the plight of the Palestinians on the other.

Israel wants to get *rid* of the Palestinians, not out and out *slaughter* them.

 

[Alcofribas]

6 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

Israel wants to get *rid* of the Palestinians, not out and out *slaughter* them.

 

shaking my head sagely, wisdomly

[zlemflolia]

12 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

You may not care about courts and the definitions they make up but I’m sure you’d agree there’s a difference between what was done by the Germans to the Herero, the Turks to the Armenians and the Germans (again) to the Jews on the one hand and the plight of the Palestinians on the other.

Israel wants to get *rid* of the Palestinians, not out and out *slaughter* them.

 

genocide includes things like destruction of culture and forced assimilation which is what most of the justification for the alleged xinjiang genocide is.  the palestinians have lived there for ages and israel wants to "get rid" of them through, guess what, killing them, and trapping them on landlocked strips where they starve to death.  german genocide of herero used very similar tactics to what is happening right now to the gaza strip (trapping them in an area where they cant survive)

also im not sure how to comprehend or reply to that last sentence

Edited April 13, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[ignatius]

9 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

Israel wants to get *rid* of the Palestinians, not out and out *slaughter* them.

"sorry, i know this is your ancestral home and you currently live here and take care of this thousand year old olive orchard but you've got one hour to pack and leave. You had plenty of time to file a complaint. the plans for this change have been in the basement of the UN for quite some time. it's you're own fault really."

[Limo]

3 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

genocide includes things like destruction of culture and forced assimilation

No it doesn’t. It has a very precise definition: the willful destruction of a people by murder. It was conceived by a legal scholar for the express purpose of describing the crime that was committed by the Turks against the Armenians, which was not driving them from their land or forbidding them to express themselves culturally but plain and simple murder.

 

3 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

also im not sure how to comprehend or reply to that last sentence

Israel doesn’t care if the Palestinians were to pack up their stuff and move to Lebanon or Jordan. It just doesn’t want them living on the land it’s decided is its own.

6 minutes ago, ignatius said:

"sorry, i know this is your ancestral home and you currently live here and take care of this thousand year old olive orchard but you've got one hour to pack and leave. You had plenty of time to file a complaint. the plans for this change have been in the basement of the UN for quite some time. it's you're own fault really."

Yes. It’s absolutely bonkers.

[zlemflolia]

26 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

No it doesn’t. It has a very precise definition: the willful destruction of a people by murder. It was conceived by a legal scholar for the express purpose of describing the crime that was committed by the Turks against the Armenians, which was not driving them from their land or forbidding them to express themselves culturally but plain and simple murder.

 

Israel doesn’t care if the Palestinians were to pack up their stuff and move to Lebanon or Jordan. It just doesn’t want them living on the land it’s decided is its own.

Yes. It’s absolutely bonkers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide

[chenGOD]

22 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

It has a very precise definition: the willful destruction of a people by murder.

It’s a little broader than that, but one of the reasons the US bombing of North Korea is not a genocide is that to be a genocide “Victims have to be deliberately, not randomly, targeted because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups [national, ethnic, racial or religious]outlined in the above definition.” (Emphasis mine)
Ironically, there are almost definitely crimes against humanity ongoing in North Korea, but they are being carried out by the North Korean government. 

2 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide

The last bullet there of course being the Chinese cultural genocide of the Uyghurs. 

[Limo]

18 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide

Right. Which this very Wikipedia article itself says is not he same thing as “regular” genocide.

At least read the Wikipedia stuff you link to.

Edit: for your convenience I’ll quote the official definition of genocide for you:

Quote

The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such" including the killing of its members, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to "bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group. Victims have to be deliberately, not randomly, targeted because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups outlined in the above definition.[4][5][6][7]

Nothing cultural about it.

Edited April 13, 2021 by rhmilo

[zkom]

23 hours ago, cyanobacteria said:

north korea has hurt significantly less people than the US.  of course it's better for a person to live in the US than north korea

as for that last sentence, I'm going to pretend like you didn't write something that absurd and disgusting

Well, good to know there's some limit. But you realize that the juche ideology is ultra-nationalistic, racist and even employs a kind of eugenics program with infanticide of babies with birth defects and locking disabled people in camps outside cities?

[zlemflolia]

51 minutes ago, zkom said:

Well, good to know there's some limit. But you realize that the juche ideology is ultra-nationalistic, racist and even employs a kind of eugenics program with infanticide of babies with birth defects and locking disabled people in camps outside cities?

I'll believe it when I see decent evidence, western media takes the words of highly paid defectors to south korea at face value, while completely ignoring and oppressing those who contradict the narrative. it creates a requirement of doubt, one which should be blamed on south korea and the west

Edited April 14, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[ignatius]

7 minutes ago, cyanobacteria said:

I'll believe it when I see decent evidence, western media takes the words of highly paid defectors to south korea at face value, while completely ignoring and oppressing those who contradict the narrative. it creates a requirement of doubt, one which should be blamed on south korea and the west

[zlemflolia]

looks like excellent ...fat blob production capabilities

[chenGOD]

50 minutes ago, ignatius said:

Damn that's an early picture of KJU. He's in pretty good health then. Compare to now (from March of this year)

[ignatius]

25 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Damn that's an early picture of KJU. He's in pretty good health then. Compare to now (from March of this year)

is that an accurate date for that pic? didn't he disappear for a while or something? then his sister or cousin or whoever took over for a while? probably difficult to discern what's actually going on there.

[chenGOD]

57 minutes ago, ignatius said:

is that an accurate date for that pic? didn't he disappear for a while or something? then his sister or cousin or whoever took over for a while? probably difficult to discern what's actually going on there.

Yes it's an accurate date. He disappeared early 2020 with health issues, and China reportedly sent doctors to look after the Dear Marshal.

COVID has definitely made it harder for foreigners to remain in country, and the latest speech from KJU has made it quite clear that there are significant challenges facing the country (beyond the usual).

[ignatius]

4 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Yes it's an accurate date. He disappeared early 2020 with health issues, and China reportedly sent doctors to look after the Dear Marshal.

COVID has definitely made it harder for foreigners to remain in country, and the latest speech from KJU has made it quite clear that there are significant challenges facing the country (beyond the usual).

but NorTh KOREa STILL has no COvID CaSEs  

Every year Pyongyang sends millions of North Korean workers abroad, selling their services to over 40 countries around the world. And their salaries flow directly into Kim’s treasury.

 

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, ignatius said:

Every year Pyongyang sends millions of North Korean workers abroad, selling their services to over 40 countries around the world. And their salaries flow directly into Kim’s treasury.

That's true, although I think the millions number is somewhat exaggerated. I'd estimate it at 100,000 or less, with the vast majority in China and then Russia. China of course because they share a border, but also because Chinese factories love employing North Korean workers because they can pay them lower wages and abuse the ever loving fuck out of them (it's called "high intensity labour" and involves 15+ hour work days). As well, the North Koreans all live in dorms and have "managers", so they are easy to control and monitor.

I've been to a couple of North Korean restaurants abroad, they're almost all shady as fuck and I'm 90% sure the women working there are also getting pimped out.

[ignatius]

38 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

I've been to a couple of North Korean restaurants abroad, they're almost all shady as fuck and I'm 90% sure the women working there are also getting pimped out.

it's so creepy. that vibe is just all sleeze. experienced that in tijuana in a very uncomfortable way and felt awful for a while after i left the restaurant.  

and saw some pure sleeze pimpin at Club UK in london in early 90s. didn't register at first but wtf was so creepy and gross. 

the human trafficking side of it is crushing to think about. 

[zlemflolia]

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[ignatius]

 

[chenGOD]

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/04/uyghur-women-china-xinjiang/618531

I Never Thought China Could Ever Be This Dark

Leaving Xinjiang has not meant Uyghur women are free of Beijing’s grasp.

[zlemflolia]

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[custom knob]

is the argument that if they haven't detained all of the uyghurs in china then they can't have detained any of the uyghurs?

 

[zlemflolia]

15 hours ago, custom knob said:

is the argument that if they haven't detained all of the uyghurs in china then they can't have detained any of the uyghurs?

 

its a piece of evidence that theyre not even bothering in this region at this time to either detain uyghurs or destroy their culture, or if they're doing it they're very incompetent

Edited April 20, 2021 by cyanobacteria