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How does the World view China these days?


auxien
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30 minutes ago, ignatius said:

I forget his name but the general who ran the air campaign against Japan said (paraphrasing) “either we win this war or we’re all war criminals for doing this” when discussing the fire bombings of Japanese cities which were all made of wood. I forget the numbers but something like 80,000 civilians were killed each time we dropped incendiary bombs on a Japanese city.

There were atrocities on all sides. There’s pictures of Japanese soldiers with babies on bayonets. The rape of Nanking. And on and on it went. WW2 is often referred to as the good war and it’s just fucking stupid.

About 3:30 into it he gets into something relevant here
 

 

 


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yes, Men Behind the Sun. WWII Japanese committed medical and experimental atrocities, and rape on Chinese citizens that China still holds as a wound that will never heal.

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42 minutes ago, usagi said:

solely attributing the social/ethical disposition of Chinese mainlanders to the horrors they've experienced in recent times would be a mistake. I'm sure it's got partly to do with it (brutality can certainly create inhumanity in its victims), but it also has a lot to do with the system of beliefs that's been forced upon them.

Show me the passage in Marx where it says the countryside should be starved to death or the bit where Lenin claims it’s a good idea to have high school students beat their teachers to a pulp.

Stalin, of course, did starve out the Ukraine, so there is that, but by and large China is in its own league when it comes to murderous politics, especially murderous politics *within living memory*.

Ideology is nothing more than window dressing. What actually matters are facts on the ground.

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ideology determines the system of governance, which determines social settings and thus shapes people's lives "on the ground". I don't get why you would break that very well-understood chain of causality, other than to win some silly internet argument. the fact that Marx and Lenin's shit was perverted from its original intentions doesn't change that, it's an additional fact that merits its own discussion.

ideology is not just some purely abstract irrelevant thing with no practical consequences. I'm amazed anyone would argue this as we approach the 20 yr anniversary of a certain event that we're constantly reminded of, which was both ideologically-driven in nature and sparked a number of ongoing ideologically-driven conflicts with very practical consequences on a huge number of people's lives.

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5 hours ago, usagi said:

ideology determines the system of governance, which determines social settings and thus shapes people's lives "on the ground". I don't get why you would break that very well-understood chain of causality, other than to win some silly internet argument. the fact that Marx and Lenin's shit was perverted from its original intentions doesn't change that, it's an additional fact that merits its own discussion.

ideology is not just some purely abstract irrelevant thing with no practical consequences. I'm amazed anyone would argue this as we approach the 20 yr anniversary of a certain event that we're constantly reminded of, which was both ideologically-driven in nature and sparked a number of ongoing ideologically-driven conflicts with very practical consequences on a huge number of people's lives.

It’s always about power first and foremost. Governments that put ideology first never last long. See the Paris Commune and the anarchists in Spain.

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ideology in the modern world mostly seems like a cloak that leaders have adorned themselves with to justify their policies. not to say that places aren't firmly capitalist or totalitarian or whatever.. but ideology seems really unrestrained.. sort of like how american evangelicals keep moving the goal posts to whatever suits them at any moment. 

the systems are old though and seems like a lot of them have outgrown or developed evolved/devolved beyond their foundations. plenty of core principals still exist but what does all that mean today? i'm probably lost on it all really.. just thinking out loud. 

 

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On 9/4/2021 at 10:19 PM, ignatius said:

give them time. but yeah..  USA's 400 years of slavery is hard to top. not to mention all the global 'outreach'. china's hands aren't clean though.. i doubt many if any country has clean hands. 

Slavery in China existed for well over 400 years: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_China

They just didn’t need to import their slaves. 

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1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

Slavery in China existed for well over 400 years: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_China

They just didn’t need to import their slaves. 

Yup.

There isn’t a single form of slavery, however, that compares in scale and brutality to chattel slavery in the Americas. That really is on a whole different level than pretty much all slavery anywhere else in history.

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13 hours ago, rhmilo said:

It’s always about power first and foremost. Governments that put ideology first never last long. See the Paris Commune and the anarchists in Spain.

again, corrupting an ideology for the pure pursuit of power is still an ideology. you could argue it's a "practice" rather than a highbrow ideology or some such semantic nitpicking, but it all boils down to a very simple thing: people act based on what they believe. if that belief is to pay lip service to an abstract set of beliefs in public while privately stepping over those beliefs to maintain a stranglehold on power, that is the ideology you have chosen and applied.

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I see so much China hate but I see so little US hate.  The disproportionality in my opinion indicates clear racism.  You can post as many wikipedia links as you want and claim to not love the US when pressured, but the active hate against China is to my mind nothing less than a manifestation of either anti-Chinese or anti-Asian racism, general xenophobia, or an indication of having fallen for western capitalist anti-China propaganda.  This post is directed at no individual in particular.  It's just worth noting that just about everything discussed about China here is negative despite many positive things to talk about, especially when compared to western capitalist nations or even non-western capitalist nations on certain metrics.

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2 hours ago, rhmilo said:

Yup.

There isn’t a single form of slavery, however, that compares in scale and brutality to chattel slavery in the Americas. That really is on a whole different level than pretty much all slavery anywhere else in history.

In scale, Chinese slavery probably far outstripped any other (demographics dictate that), but in brutality absolutely nothing touches the slavery in the ante-bellum south. 
China’s slavery definitely didn’t have the same economic impact that happened in the US, they were more of a luxury item. There was likely more trafficking of girls for sex than in the Americas (although that obviously happened there as well).

 
 

 

3 hours ago, ignatius said:

good point.. perhaps it uh.. still exists? [looks at apple devices]

Definitely does. As an example, Singaporean treatment of Myanmar domestic workers. Google it for the sordid details (it’s really fucked up, so if you have a shred of hope for humanity, better if you don't).

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37 minutes ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

I see so much China hate but I see so little US hate.  The disproportionality in my opinion indicates clear racism.  You can post as many wikipedia links as you want and claim to not love the US when pressured, but the active hate against China is to my mind nothing less than a manifestation of either anti-Chinese or anti-Asian racism, general xenophobia, or an indication of having fallen for western capitalist anti-China propaganda.  This post is directed at no individual in particular.  It's just worth noting that just about everything discussed about China here is negative despite many positive things to talk about, especially when compared to western capitalist nations or even non-western capitalist nations on certain metrics.

This is a thread about China. 
The US thread is full of fucked up examples of bizarre ideological fetish of money and other stupid shit that goes on there. 

There are probably quite a few posts in this thread alone extolling the virtues of Chinese cinema, the amazing variety of delicious Chinese food, the brilliant works of Chinese authors (both historical and contemporary), lots of discussion around Chinese philosophy/religion (given that Zen Buddhism is still so fucking hip).
 

Throwing out the accusation of racism because people happen to discuss negative aspects of Chinese history or society cheapens the word, especially when there is actual anti-Asian racism that could be addressed. 

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3 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Throwing out the accusation of racism because people happen to discuss negative aspects of Chinese history or society cheapens the word

I guess this is what you do when you can't spin China's own bloodshed in some kind of positive or justified light. it's a special travesty to be watering down the actual problem of racism by mixing it up with critique of the CCP, an entity that is actively committing mass atrocities against minorities.

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1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

Definitely does. As an example, Singaporean treatment of Myanmar domestic workers. Google it for the sordid details (it’s really fucked up, so if you have a shred of hope for humanity, better if you don't).

Allow me to one up that with a suggestion to look up the way Myanmarese are treated aboard Thai and Malaysian fishing vessels. This is so horrible it would shock a Barbary galley captain.

Makes (back on topic) Uyghur re-education camps look benign in comparison.

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3 hours ago, rhmilo said:

Allow me to one up that with a suggestion to look up the way Myanmarese are treated aboard Thai and Malaysian fishing vessels. This is so horrible it would shock a Barbary galley captain.

Makes (back on topic) Uyghur re-education camps look benign in comparison.

Yeah those are awful for sure. Myanmar has just been abused by all comers, and they’ve done a good job of fucking things up themselves. 

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On 9/5/2021 at 5:22 AM, rhmilo said:

Show me the passage in Marx where it says the countryside should be starved to death or the bit where Lenin claims it’s a good idea to have high school students beat their teachers to a pulp.

Stalin, of course, did starve out the Ukraine, so there is that, but by and large China is in its own league when it comes to murderous politics, especially murderous politics *within living memory*.

Ideology is nothing more than window dressing. What actually matters are facts on the ground.

The downfall of every ideology, and communism included is:

''the ends justifies the means''

Once you're ready to break a few eggs for your revolution (aka kill a few bourgeois/anti revolutionaries/anyone who disagree at some point) without any trouble at all on your conscience, youre losing your humanity bit by bit and destroying your ideals the more your political power grows. Happened countless times with communism. It is engrained in the ideology. You have the enventual right to kill to make the revolution happen and liberate the people. Of course once you go that way there is often a slippery slope of murderous events that will happen and voilà. You get the communists failures every time. Russia, China, Cambodge.

One does not simply unleash the inner beast in man, one does not simply open the pandora box and hopes once the revolution is over all will be well.

Of course it is not limited to communism.

The ends justifies the means is applicable to any wars and tyranny. Fascists, capitalists, monarchists, religious fanatics, terrorists etc etc. Once you give up basic conscience and humanity your ideals and causes arent worth shit imo and are nothing but self-delusions and nothing but a fake façade of justice.

(PS: Dostoievsky Demons is a excellent book about exactly that.)

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9 hours ago, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

I see so much China hate but I see so little US hate.  The disproportionality in my opinion indicates clear racism.  You can post as many wikipedia links as you want and claim to not love the US when pressured, but the active hate against China is to my mind nothing less than a manifestation of either anti-Chinese or anti-Asian racism, general xenophobia, or an indication of having fallen for western capitalist anti-China propaganda.  This post is directed at no individual in particular.  It's just worth noting that just about everything discussed about China here is negative despite many positive things to talk about, especially when compared to western capitalist nations or even non-western capitalist nations on certain metrics.

To want the chinese people to have basic human rights is not to hate the chinese people.

I would argue that to defend a government that takes away almost all basic rights is to hate the chinese more than to love them...

I totally agree we have to be careful not to fall to anti-china sentiment in a way that would be against the chinese people itself and to racism but you seem to care more about the image and the ideology of the government and the ideas of the great China nation than the actual people that have to suffer under this rule, the same way the ultrapatriotic american are more attached to their ultranationalistic patriotism and their flag than the real welfare of the country and that everyone that criticize the state is anti-patriotic and anti-american.

Everyone i know in here is quite critical about USA.

Enough with the Whataboutism.

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The whole China vs USA thing is indeed propaganda BS tho, it seems to me. Both China and USA do it. And its been continued here. USA ''what about china'' China: ''what about USA''

Give.Me.A.Break.PLZ.

We should be able to talk about either of those, and be critical of both without having to constantly refer to the other in whataboutism, like it's some pole or axis of opposite.

They are just countries amongst any other countries on earth, this duality, polar opposite USA vs China is fabricated.

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currently listening to an interview on NPR w/an author whose book is coming out soon and chinese government pressuring him not to publish it even though it's too late i guess.. and they've got his wife in custody and using her to force him to stop the publication some how... by saying she'll go back in custody and she asks him questions like "how would you feel if something happened to our son".  and he's talking to chinese officials essentially negotiating w/her kidnappers. 

https://eminetra.co.uk/the-mystery-of-a-missing-woman-who-attacked-a-chinese-red-aristocrat/679135/

After months and years without information about Duane, Siam decided to write a book about their year in the dangerous link between business and politics in the world’s second-largest economy.Worried about China’s direction Under Xi, Siam decided to leave the country in 2015. He hasn’t returned since Duane disappeared. “When I get in there, I don’t come out,” he told the Financial Times.

Red rouletteWhat’s coming out next week is primarily about what Siam sees as a “golden age” for Chinese entrepreneurs. Since the mid-1990s, they have been more free to work than decades.

But it’s also about the decline of that vacancy period when the resurrected Chinese Communist Party became convinced that it had the upper hand over its western rivals, especially the United States.

A unique and incendiary memoir from an entrepreneur who rose to the highest realms of power and money in China and whose wife was disappeared, Red Roulette reveals the truth of what is happening inside the country’s wealth-making machine.

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Red-Roulette/Desmond-Shum/9781982156152

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Meanwhile Evergrande, the largest real estate developer in China (and therefore, presumably, 😉 , in the world), is facing possible default:

https://www.ft.com/content/ae2bbe36-1e49-4a46-bc65-955bbf962e2a

It is apparently yet another private company that got obscenely rich and powerful on the coattails of China’s breakneck economic development of the last twenty to thirty years or so and that is now being reeled in.

Problem is, of course, that this time it’s not cab rides, an online marketplace or a chat app with games but a company that builds the houses people live in. A Dutch newspaper said they were likely “too big to fail”. We’ll see.

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11 hours ago, rhmilo said:

Meanwhile Evergrande, the largest real estate developer in China (and therefore, presumably, 😉 , in the world), is facing possible default:

https://www.ft.com/content/ae2bbe36-1e49-4a46-bc65-955bbf962e2a

It is apparently yet another private company that got obscenely rich and powerful on the coattails of China’s breakneck economic development of the last twenty to thirty years or so and that is now being reeled in.

Problem is, of course, that this time it’s not cab rides, an online marketplace or a chat app with games but a company that builds the houses people live in. A Dutch newspaper said they were likely “too big to fail”. We’ll see.

Paywalled….

seems the wiki page on them is out of date, or the FT writer got their facts wrong. Strong possibility of both those scenarios being right lol. 

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7 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Paywalled….

seems the wiki page on them is out of date, or the FT writer got their facts wrong. Strong possibility of both those scenarios being right lol. 

Try porn mode, maybe?

I suspect the FT is a little less susceptible to astroturfing by CCP supporters,  btw.

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