Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[chenGOD]

45 minutes ago, auxien said:

don't need made up bullshit to connect with others in the world and in your local community. the 'spiritual' part is moot because there is no spirit, the lazy acceptance of supernatural surreality imposed upon the world is interesting but entirely without basis in fact. the sooner it's left in the dirt of the past the better that all of humanity and the world will be for it.

Note that when I refer to spirituality, I'm not referring to belief in some deity. Spirit is more the inner self that is not manifested in any physical form. Spiritually healing practices like meditation (which is what "prayer" is really supposed to be) and reflection/learning on ones actions with respect to communication, empathy/sympathy, kindness, charity and so on are important (in my opinion) parts of growing as a person.

[auxien]

12 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Note that when I refer to spirituality, I'm not referring to belief in some deity. Spirit is more the inner self that is not manifested in any physical form. Spiritually healing practices like meditation (which is what "prayer" is really supposed to be) and reflection/learning on ones actions with respect to communication, empathy/sympathy, kindness, charity and so on are important (in my opinion) parts of growing as a person.

cool. not trying to turn this thread into a spirituality debate, but there's no spirit at all, hence no spirituality. 'inner self not manifested in any physical form' is a meaningless jumble of words, at best. despite how things may feel at times, our 'selves' in any ways we can ever know them are intrinsically part of our physical form, the illusion of separation is just that, an illusion. any sense of disconnection between them is false and is temporary.

meditation is great for some. reflection on and learning from actions with respect to communication and empathy, kindness, charity, etc are all very important to growing as a person, obviously. none of this has anything to do with any spirit or gods or the alignment of the planets or any such nonsense tho. 

[ignatius]

 

[chenGOD]

6 minutes ago, auxien said:

no spirit at all, hence no spirituality

Perhaps I'm not doing a good job of explaining, but I believe that humans do have an inner spirit (consciousness/mental processes, whatever you want to call it) that is not manifested physically, but interacts with the physical.  I would note this is not Cartesian dualism, as this belief is based in non-essentialism, hence the idea that meditation and other spiritual practices (such as making music) can change both the "spirit" and the "physical body". These two components are impacted further by the results that arise out of the interactions. Karl Popper of course does a better job of explaining it than I can.

I suppose on target I feel that if more people on both sides of the conflict we're discussing practiced this sort of growth, it would be easier to resolve the conflict. Organized religion (especially fundamentalist type) precludes this because alternative perspectives are irreconcilable with the core tenets of whatever organized religion is being promoted by the state. 

[Thu Zaw]

Think y'all just got different names for the same concepts.

Bit like Abrahamic religions. 

[auxien]

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

Perhaps I'm not doing a good job of explaining, but I believe that humans do have an inner spirit (consciousness/mental processes, whatever you want to call it) that is not manifested physically, but interacts with the physical.  I would note this is not Cartesian dualism, as this belief is based in non-essentialism, hence the idea that meditation and other spiritual practices (such as making music) can change both the "spirit" and the "physical body". These two components are impacted further by the results that arise out of the interactions. Karl Popper of course does a better job of explaining it than I can.

I suppose on target I feel that if more people on both sides of the conflict we're discussing practiced this sort of growth, it would be easier to resolve the conflict. Organized religion (especially fundamentalist type) precludes this because alternative perspectives are irreconcilable with the core tenets of whatever organized religion is being promoted by the state. 

if that's what you believe, okay. idc really, everyone's welcome to believe in anything they choose of course. i only care about reality. in reality there is zero actual separation between any inner self (the 'spirit') and the physical self no matter how much anyone has written about it. conceptually it can make sense to speak in those terms on some rare occasions perhaps, but realistically carrying that sorta approach into real life is a big problem imo. 

claiming the Israeli-Palestinian conflict might get better if they practiced your religion instead of theirs is..... um, problematic.

[caze]

3 hours ago, auxien said:

sure sounds like the state of Israel took property from Palestinians who'd been forcibly ejected and used it to publicly house the influx of Jewish peoples being shipped in to enable an ethnostate. that's based on essentially just the article (which, i repeat, seems fishy/biased/trash) so assumptions incorrect or not are based on yet a third read of it (it gets worse the more i've read it).

the 'perfectly reasonable' part doesn't work because the state of Israel, which at that time had only existed for a couple of years, was seizing lands of Palestinians who had in some cases been forced out. if there's a flaw in what i'm understanding please point out exactly where.

Israel took land/property in West Jerusalem - which was abandoned by Palestinians fleeing to Jordanian annexed land in 1948, and used it to house Jewish refugees fleeing Arab and Iranian persecution across the middle east. And conversely Palestinian refugees took land/property abandoned by Jewish people in East Jerusalem fleeing to Israel. Not sure what's hard about this for you to understand. The trigger for the current conflict was a civil legal dispute between private individuals over Jewish property in East Jerusalem, it's 'perfectly reasonable' because the land in question wasn't seized by the Israeli government, it was the property of Jews from long before the foundation of the state of Israel. The only unreasonable part of this is a separate dispute between the presumably soon to be evicted Palestinians and the Israeli state for compensation/resettlement for their own loss of land in 1948 (I don't know the specific details of the individuals involved, and what kind of claim they have, but compensation has been given out by Israel in the past). Population transfers, loss and gains of territory are commonplace in times of conflict, it's weird that Jews are treated differently from everyone else in these matters by so many, I wonder why that could be?

[caze]

...note that I'm just talking about this specific case here, not Israeli settlements in the West Bank in general, which are frequently unjust (IIRC only a minority represent what you might consider normal legal transfers of property, with outright theft and coercion a common tactic in many cases).

Edited May 15, 2021 by caze

[thefxbip]

''Thou shall not kill''

Once you begin making excuses to not follow this very simple precept. No matter how great your land, your people, your religion, your political cause or party might seems to you it doesn't mean anything anymore.

You've betrayed yourself as a human being, your fellow living creatures and you've betrayed your religion no matter what it is.You've abandoned your human dignity.

Once you excuse human murder, once it becomes ok, all hell breaks loose. Ideals and great causes don't mean nothing when they are used to kill other people.

War is hell.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by thefxbip

[auxien]

50 minutes ago, caze said:

Israel took land/property in West Jerusalem - which was abandoned by Palestinians fleeing to Jordanian annexed land in 1948

the article you linked suggested that some of the Palestinians were forcibly removed, correct? that seems worth not omitting. a state kicking out residents then taking the property seems....idk, wrong? who gives a fuck if 40 years later they tell the descendants they'll pay some restitution. 

50 minutes ago, caze said:

Not sure what's hard about this for you to understand.

the hard part for me to understand is the multigenerational wars & land theft & legal battles spanning the creation of nations over a hundred or so fucking years. it's a little complex, ya condescending ass. 

50 minutes ago, caze said:

The trigger for the current conflict was a civil legal dispute between private individuals over Jewish property in East Jerusalem, it's 'perfectly reasonable' because the land in question wasn't seized by the Israeli government, it was the property of Jews from long before the foundation of the state of Israel. 

except for at least one resident's proven deed:

Quote

In the case of Sheikh Jarrah, save for a single deed, Palestinians have failed to prove ownership. Instead, they have argued that the UN and the Jordanian government built these houses and were about to register them in the name of their Palestinian residents, but then Israel took over East Jerusalem and no deeds were ever produced.

also please define when the Jewish persons owned these properties from 'long before' the foundation of Israel. are we talking 10 years before? 100 years? 1000? why did they at some point in the past supposedly own the land in Sheikh Jarrah then suddenly at some point before 1948 not own it? how? why? when? i honestly have no clue on this and your linked article, again, is lacking in clarity (seems to have plenty of bias at least!). 

further, isn't possession essentially 9/10ths of the law? if these Palestinians have been living in this neighborhood, 'owning' the land at least in one case, and in many seemingly taking care of it, for what, 50, 70 years now? it's kinda theirs by this point, yeah? what proof does anyone have that these persons or their ancestors half a century ago stole it? at least one of these Palestinians rightfully owns the deed to the land it seems, is that person being kicked out now too?

50 minutes ago, caze said:

The only unreasonable part of this is a separate dispute between the presumably soon to be evicted Palestinians and the Israeli state for compensation/resettlement for their own loss of land in 1948 (I don't know the specific details of the individuals involved, and what kind of claim they have, but compensation has been given out by Israel in the past). Population transfers, loss and gains of territory are commonplace in times of conflict, it's weird that Jews are treated differently from everyone else in these matters by so many, I wonder why that could be?

i'm sure there's plenty of antisemitism by some actors, undoubtedly. but the facts of the existence of Israel at all is pretty shitty from my limited knowledge of it, and it's kinda the whole problem? for the record i have disdain for all religions equally (except maybe Catholicism just because i was raised in it so i might hate it a little more). the current actions of the ethnostate of Israel in massacring the Palestinians seems, idk, pretty fucking shitty. Palestinans killing Israelis/Jewish persons is also fucking shitty. killing people is bad, idc what gods you worship. i'm sure i could find plenty of incidences of shitty actions by any religious group named and i'd gladly call them out too  

Edited May 15, 2021 by auxien

[milkface]

56 minutes ago, caze said:

Israel took land/property in West Jerusalem - which was abandoned by Palestinians fleeing to Jordanian annexed land in 1948, and used it to house Jewish refugees fleeing Arab and Iranian persecution across the middle east. And conversely Palestinian refugees took land/property abandoned by Jewish people in East Jerusalem fleeing to Israel. Not sure what's hard about this for you to understand. The trigger for the current conflict was a civil legal dispute between private individuals over Jewish property in East Jerusalem, it's 'perfectly reasonable' because the land in question wasn't seized by the Israeli government, it was the property of Jews from long before the foundation of the state of Israel. The only unreasonable part of this is a separate dispute between the presumably soon to be evicted Palestinians and the Israeli state for compensation/resettlement for their own loss of land in 1948 (I don't know the specific details of the individuals involved, and what kind of claim they have, but compensation has been given out by Israel in the past). Population transfers, loss and gains of territory are commonplace in times of conflict, it's weird that Jews are treated differently from everyone else in these matters by so many, I wonder why that could be?

This post has been seized by the WATMM Defence Forces. Any reacts you receive are now mine.

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, auxien said:

claiming the Israeli-Palestinian conflict might get better if they practiced your religion instead of theirs

That’s not what I’m claiming though. I’m not describing a religion. 

1 hour ago, auxien said:

In reality there is zero actual separation between any inner self (the 'spirit') and the physical self

I’d have to see some proof of this. 

[ignatius]

there needs to be a 'come to jesus' moment over there on all sides. 

Spoiler

ahem. srsly though w/o everyone admitting accountability and remorse and some kind of genuine compromise where everyone accepts the right for various religious humans to exist this shit will just keep spinning.. the hardliners will keep playing their greatest hits for the media and nothing will change. litigating 1000s of years of property rights is fucking absurd. kicking people out of their homes is absurd. it's all fucking absurd. a fucking tragedy. humanitarian crisis that sometimes slows and other times accelerates. empathy and compassion are scarce. gonna go piss in the wind now. 

 

[auxien]

38 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

That’s not what I’m claiming though. I’m not describing a religion. 

"Spirit is more the inner self that is not manifested in any physical form." is textbook religious yak. even if your personal belief in some spirit within isn't exactly the same as what Christianity teaches is a soul or any other religion teaches of their version, it's the same kind of made up hooey that is not based in any reality or facts.

3 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Perhaps I'm not doing a good job of explaining, but I believe that humans do have an inner spirit (consciousness/mental processes, whatever you want to call it) that is not manifested physically, but interacts with the physical.

i think i understand as much as i want/need to. the mind and all aspects of experience arise directly and are intrinsically tied to our physical bodies. speaking of them as separate is confusing and incorrect and leads to many problems large and small. 'consciousness/mental process/spirit/soul/inner self/blah blah blah' it's all the same. a mind is tied one hundred fucking percent to a body at all times, there is no distinction, despite how strongly we may feel there is some difference. 

38 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

1 hour ago, auxien said:

In reality there is zero actual separation between any inner self (the 'spirit') and the physical self

I’d have to see some proof of this. 

lol sure man. find me a monk who can access the deepest levels of meditative states and give me an axe. we'll see how long their spirit holds separate from their physical body once i start lopping off limbs. 

edit: but more to the point, i guarantee that their 'inner self/spirit/whatever' will cease to exist when their arms and legs are gone and it's off with their head. yes, i'm well aware that very attuned humans can perform all sorts of physical acts that give the appearance of a lack of physical reaction to external stimuli, even extreme ones. this is well documented. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by auxien

[Thu Zaw]

[chenGOD]

2 minutes ago, auxien said:

"Spirit is more the inner self that is not manifested in any physical form." is textbook religious yak. even if your personal belief in some spirit within isn't exactly the same as what Christianity teaches is a soul or any other religion teaches of their version, it's the same kind of made up hooey that is not based in any reality or facts.

i think i understand as much as i want/need to. the mind and all aspects of experience arise directly and are intrinsically tied to our physical bodies. speaking of them as separate is confusing and incorrect and leads to many problems large and small. 'consciousness/metal process/spirit/soul/inner self/blah blah blah' it's all the same. a mind is tied one hundred fucking percent to a body at all times, there is no distinction, despite how strongly we may feel there is some difference. 

lol sure man. find me a monk who can access the deepest levels of meditative states and give me an axe. we'll see how long their spirit holds separate from their physical body once i start lopping off limbs. 

You seem really wound up. May I suggest meditation? 
 

Given that one of the main tenets of all the major religions is belief in some supernatural deity (or deities), along with a series of prescriptions, me saying that our consciousness may be separate from the physical self (the idea of which predates all major western religions by 200 years or so - not Hinduism though) is hardly an endorsement of organized religion. 
 

Im not sure what proof your last paragraph is supposed to indicate? Is it that physical pain will cause him to lose concentration?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thích_Quảng_Đức

 

[zlemflolia]

23 hours ago, Thu Zaw said:

@cyanobacteria Cool, so when you going to fly over to join the fight in the resistance? Or are you just gonna wage war on civilisations from the comfort of your studio flat in imperialist, fascist USA?

 

Bad news for you bro, you ARE imperialist, fascist USA. You're not a revolutionary of any sort whatsoever. You've no idea the realities of living in a conflict zone.

 

This is a revolutionary fighter:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/2114559/myanmar-beauty-queen-takes-up-arms-against-junta

 

This is you:

 

look i get it, you dont like me, but i think you need to find a new way to deal with my posts.  this cant be great for your health making a 5 page rant about me as a person every time i respond to you

[zlemflolia]

5 hours ago, auxien said:

don't need made up bullshit to connect with others in the world and in your local community. the 'spiritual' part is moot because there is no spirit, the lazy acceptance of supernatural surreality imposed upon the world is interesting but entirely without basis in fact. the sooner it's left in the dirt of the past the better that all of humanity and the world will be for it.

so, yeah. what Extralife said. religion is so dumb. full stop.

if there was anything spiritual about this the israeli people would be protesting and taking over their own government to prevent this genocide. 

>Thou shalt have no other gods before me

religious monuments taking precedence over human life

>Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

probably going to continue working and bombing on sunday

>Thou shalt not murder

duh

>Thou shalt not steal

duh

>Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour

using excuses that its to kill terrorists when its really civilians

>Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house

lmfao

these people are NOT jewish, they are FASCIST.

2 hours ago, caze said:

Israel took land/property in West Jerusalem - which was abandoned by Palestinians fleeing to Jordanian annexed land in 1948, and used it to house Jewish refugees fleeing Arab and Iranian persecution across the middle east. And conversely Palestinian refugees took land/property abandoned by Jewish people in East Jerusalem fleeing to Israel. Not sure what's hard about this for you to understand. The trigger for the current conflict was a civil legal dispute between private individuals over Jewish property in East Jerusalem, it's 'perfectly reasonable' because the land in question wasn't seized by the Israeli government, it was the property of Jews from long before the foundation of the state of Israel. The only unreasonable part of this is a separate dispute between the presumably soon to be evicted Palestinians and the Israeli state for compensation/resettlement for their own loss of land in 1948 (I don't know the specific details of the individuals involved, and what kind of claim they have, but compensation has been given out by Israel in the past). Population transfers, loss and gains of territory are commonplace in times of conflict, it's weird that Jews are treated differently from everyone else in these matters by so many, I wonder why that could be?

property > life according to sick fascists

perfectly reasonable to bomb palestinian children? maybe for a fascist

fuck israel

[auxien]

22 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

You seem really wound up. May I suggest meditation? 

wound up on some good coffee  meditation has never done me any good, i know it helps lots of people tho so i endorse it.

23 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Given that one of the main tenets of all the major religions is belief in some supernatural deity (or deities), along with a series of prescriptions, me saying that our consciousness may be separate from the physical self (the idea of which predates all major western religions by 200 years or so - not Hinduism though) is hardly an endorsement of organized religion.

i don't think i claimed you were endorsing religion? i'm just saying what it seems you believe is essentially the same as far as i'm concerned. idc if you think you believe in something way different than Zoroastrianism or Scientology, anyone claiming without proof that there is some supernatural spirit is in the same boat in my mind.... you're all terribly wrong. and this is based on the facts that there is zero proof of spiritual existence. 

24 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Im not sure what proof your last paragraph is supposed to indicate? Is it that physical pain will cause him to lose concentration?

it was an awkward example to say the least, but w/e. but ultimately cutting off his head will end his life and end his existence was the point, no matter how in tune with his self/religion/deity/greater universe/whatever he might be. before things got to that point it could be an indication of how his mind even if in some deep meditation, would likely be very much concerned with the physical realities going on....that the mind, despite how powerful it is to create a some sense of a separate self/soul, is 100% just another part of the body.

[chenGOD]

2 minutes ago, auxien said:

anyone claiming without proof that there is some supernatural spirit

I'm not claiming there's some supernatural spirit. The spirit/consciousness what have you is an intrinsic part of a person but is separate from the corporeal body. This was the thrust (as I understand it) of Descartes mind-body dualism. I agree further with Karl Popper that there are three worlds, not just physical and mental, but a third world of objective thought. This third world arises out of the interaction between physical processes and mental process (worlds 1 and 2, respectively) to create objective knowledge (that is, knowledge that exists independent of the subject who knows that piece of knowledge). The spirit or consciousness resides in world 2 as a mental process.

23 minutes ago, auxien said:

cutting off his head will end his life and end his existence...

His physical existence to be sure....

[zlemflolia]

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by cyanobacteria

[auxien]

11 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

I'm not claiming there's some supernatural spirit. The spirit/consciousness what have you is an intrinsic part of a person but is separate from the corporeal body. This was the thrust (as I understand it) of Descartes mind-body dualism. I agree further with Karl Popper that there are three worlds, not just physical and mental, but a third world of objective thought. This third world arises out of the interaction between physical processes and mental process (worlds 1 and 2, respectively) to create objective knowledge (that is, knowledge that exists independent of the subject who knows that piece of knowledge). The spirit or consciousness resides in world 2 as a mental process.

His physical existence to be sure....

believe whatever you want my dude! 

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, auxien said:

the article you linked

The article caze linked is total bullshit.

Quote

if the court orders eviction, it is improbable that Israeli civilians, always called settlers by Palestinians, will carry out the order. It is more likely that Israeli law-enforcement will evict Palestinians and hand over the property to whoever the court establishes as the rightful owner, in this case, Jewish Israelis.

Of course law enforcement will enforce the law - that is their function. They like to do it in the middle of the night, as this article in The Jerusalem Post (from 2010) illustrates.

Then you get this wonderful piece of blather:

Quote

In the case of Israel, a law was passed in 1950 that let the state confiscate real estate that belonged to Palestinians who had left Israel (whether forcefully or willingly) . The state then either auctioned such property or used it as public housing to manage the influx of Jewish migrants and refugees from parts of Palestine that came under Jordanian control. Whatever laws Israel passed in 1950, private ownership of real estate remained sacrosanct. Arabs who stayed in Israel kept their property. 

Of course, the 1948 war led to the exodus of 700,000 or so Palestinians.

Which completely contradicts the first claim that "... no Israeli government is involved in anything connected to Sheikh Jarrah or the legal battles over who owns which real estate."

Additionally: During the Six-Day War of 1967, Israel captured East Jerusalem, including Sheikh Jarrah.

So it's pretty fucking obvious that the Israeli government has had a large role in things connected to Sheikh Jarrah and the legal battles. The fact that the Supreme Court of Israel supported the Sephardic Community Committee and the Knesset Yisrael Committee in their legal battles is hardly surprising.

[ignatius]

pretty sure i farted out my spirit yesterday. wow. i offended myself even and thought about moving. 

[Cryptowen]

there was a big protest here today

the guy driving the car i was in tried to honk his horn in time to arabic music on the radio. eventually he changed it to depeche mode and started honking to enjoy the silence