Black Lives Matter

[Silent Member]

Native americans are native americans, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality_against_Native_Americans. Latino means latin american I guess, not some euroamerican with portugese/spanish/italian ancestry. Crackers are in the 1.2 group

Edited June 26, 2020 by Gocab

[goDel]

My intuition expected the list to be comprehensive. So it's not. OK, sure. Nice way of presenting these data I guess.. Ignore all the stuff below the average. The "whites" and all that.

[dingformung]

14 hours ago, Candiru said:

Trying to blame all of this on police completely misses the point anyway and it actually seems to intentionally miss the point. It's bad legislation that the American people naively ASKED for decades ago. They wanted to be tough on drugs and crime, but a lot of it ended up backfiring in a sinister way. Cops are killing less people than ever, but we have smartphones now. Not a popular thing to point out, I realize, but it's still true. 

The American public just isn't smart enough to have a nuanced conversation about fucking anything, no matter where they are on the political spectrum. 

Yes, it's missing the point to solely blame the police as an institution for post-colonial racism. It's something that should begin in schools. Kids should be reminded of the atrocities of the past more, of the colonial history but also of the various genocides American and Canadian settlers committed against the indigenous people that lived on that continent and how all of this reflects on the present. Germany in that regard was so lucky to lose the war and therefore was politically/systemically reset which made a reflection of its terrible past possible, for the US with a more continuous history and no revolutionary changes in its political system this is a more difficult task. These protests are definitely a good start and made a lot of people think about racism.

[Limo]

35 minutes ago, dingformung said:

Germany in that regard was so lucky to lose the war and therefore was politically/systemically reset which made a reflection of its terrible past possible,

Wasn’t that “reset” mostly in the West, though?

And how are German police when it comes to immigrants? Dutch cops are unbelievabley racist shitheads too - they just don’t have guns. Edit they’re just a lot less violent

Edited June 26, 2020 by rhmilo

[chenGOD]

11 hours ago, rhmilo said:

In that same year in the Netherlands there were 3. Obviously the Netherlands is much smaller than the US (17 million people vs 350) but extrapolated to the population of the US that would be:

61

Yes, so we agree, the police system in the US needs to be reformed. 

[dingformung]

5 minutes ago, rhmilo said:

Wasn’t that “reset” mostly in the West, though?

And how are German police when it comes to immigrants? Dutch cops are unbelievabley racist shitheads too - they just don’t have guns. Edit they’re just a lot less violent

Both the Soviet occupation zone (East) and the French/British/American occupation zone (West) did denazification programs. The East did that for a shorter period of time but more harshly while the West did that over a longer period of time. The East understood itself as per definition antifascist ("antifascist wall") and therefore didn't really reflect upon the Nazi time much. In fact, the USSR for a short time continued to use some of the Nazi concentration camp facilities as labour camps for political dissidents until the early 50s. There was a Neonazi and a Punk subculture in East Germany, but the Punks were persecuted more because "the Nazis at least show up on time at work" (that was the mindset) and the churches (also political opposition) fulfilled the role of giving asylum to Punks and other non-conformists. It was a society extremely streamlined towards conformity with constant Stasi surveillance. In that way the East did more of a reset (in a bad way) because it was less of a continuation of the more liberal pre-Nazi Weimar Republic. The Bonn Republic (West) took the denazification efforts more seriously. The problem is that a lot of people were Nazis, sometimes educated people that were needed to rebuild the country. It made the process difficult because the whole country's elite had to either leave the country, go underground or commit itself to the Nazis during the Hitler time, so the denazification had to go deep into the structures of society and required individual case studies, a tedious and difficult process. There still are a lot of Nazis that are in direct lineage and tradition to the Hitler Nazis. The rise of the AfD shows this, one of their leaders is the grand daughter of Hitler's finance minister, etc. Some also sit in Merkel's party, especially in the East German part of the christian-conservative party. I'm not sure though in how far you can compare national socialism with colonialism and slavery. There surely are parallels but it's not quite the same. Still, it needs to be talked about. Here, National Socialism is about 50% of history class at school

As for the police, I'm not sure. I think a lot of racial profiling is done here. In certain areas this might - I'm saying this very carefully - actually make sense to an extend in that Arabic clans actually cause some trouble, which doesn't really help making policemen less racist. Police even has to be taught MMA now because clans use martial arts a lot. And some people just look like criminals, not just because of their skin colour but also because of the way they dress and their mannerisms, and lots of them look like they have a non-European background. So the police will naturally focus on them. Phenotype does factor in. An example is a term from police jargon: "Nafri", for North African offenders that caused some controversy. Also the New Year's Eve incident of 2015 didn't really help to build trust, either. Integration is a constant struggle here because there are obvious cultural incompatibilities between liberal Western culture and cultures that have a reactionary attitude towards women (of course saying this without trying to generalise). We have the great majority of normal harmless immigrants, a (large) minority of criminal immigrants (which is more a class problem than a culture problem usually), a majority of halfway reasonable liberal-conservative and social democrat non-immigrants and a very loud minority of right-wing nutjobs that agitate against muslims and promote nationalist self-glorification, a movement that unfortunately takes place inside the police, too. It's not easy. Antisemitism isn't really wide spread here anymore, though, and frowned upon in most bubbles, but unfortunately seems to get a revival, too, along with the general global right shift and alt-right movement, resulting in attacks on synagogues. But one thing is sure, policemen are a breed of their own and definitely, at least statistically, have a tendency to be in conservative and right-wing parties. They often have a group think mindset that can under certain circumstances lead to racism. Since Germany didn't really have that many slaves there are virtually no descendants of slaves suffering from transgenerational trauma. But then there was the genocide against the Herero where German colonialists harvested bones from African men to use for pseudo-science at universities, basically to prove the inferiority of black people, which isn't really discussed in schools at all, which is a problem. National socialism overshadows the other aspects of the country's atrocious past. I wonder how places with an even more intense history of colonialism and slavery like France or the Netherlands deal with this issue and how it differs from the US.

[milkface]

20 minutes ago, dingformung said:

 I wonder how places with an even more intense history of colonialism and slavery like France or the Netherlands deal with this issue and how it differs from the US.

I'm from the UK and we weren't taught anything about it at school. The empire is often romanticised by right wingers due to a complete lack of knowledge of what really went on.

[Limo]

2 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Yes, so we agree, the police system in the US needs to be reformed. 

You wrote

"That means out of all police-public interactions in 2015, that means approximately 0.002% ended in the death of a member of the public. So again, while one wrongful death is one too many, the amplification caused by social media and echo chambers/media bubbles makes the issue seem like genocide."

Which I read to mean you think it's not all that much. My bad.

@dingformung thanks for the thorough writeup. Very interesting.

As for the Netherlands: we did colonialism and slavery, but it didn't happen here so may people feel it's not their responsibility. While some of their ancestors ran around the world raping and pillaging, most of them stayed home and worked their bones off just so they could have a little bit to eat. This may, perhaps, excuse the bulk of the ancestors, but it certainly doesn't excuse their modern descendants who are stupidly racist, insulting and belittling people of color and generally making their lives miserable, by not hiring them for jobs they're perfectly qualified for, by racially profiling them even though the vast majority of people of color do not commit crime and by doing all the other unpleasant things that fall under the euphemism of "micro aggressions".

 

[beerwolf]

34 minutes ago, milkface said:

I'm from the UK and we weren't taught anything about it at school. The empire is often romanticised by right wingers due to a complete lack of knowledge of what really went on.

Yes this is 100% correct.

When I was growing up I was led to believe that The Empire weaved in with winning World War II was the greatest thing of all time. The British were the the force of exemplary of all great and good. This bled naturally through my environment, school, friends (all of my friends seemed to have a grandfather who fought in the war), cubs and scouts (saluting the flag, the queen etc). It was just the done thing. I don't believe any of it was sinister. That's just how things were.

But when I was 19, I went to Australia for a year. I learnt about the treatment of Aboriginals, I learnt about the genocide of Tasmanian Aboriginals, the ANZAC soldiers who were commanded by British generals to die by the thousands and of course I learnt about the treatment of poor, desperate white British folk who were shipped off to a colony for sometimes almost nothing. It all blends into one.

Then I travelled across Africa, India and lots of other countries and learnt about the British and what we did. In fact I would actually ask people what they thought of the British as I became fascinated with the picture I had as a kid and the picture that was slowly appearing before me. Actually I did meet a fair few people (maybe half) who thought the British were great lol. Whatever that's another story.

I totally understand the rebellion against all of this. But it's Friday and it's time for beer and tunes. And I still think far-lefties are absolute cunts not to be trusted.

Have a nice evening 

Edited June 26, 2020 by beerwolf

[cwmbrancity]

We were warned about the English the moment our heads emerged out of our mothers.

 

[hijexx]

 

[Braintree]

1. We're blaming the police primarily because they're the ones doing the killing. We're ALSO pissed off at the politicians (just look up all of the public hearings currently happening) but their job doesn't require a pistol. As previously stated, this is an intersectional subject. Most people are on board with defunding the police to reinvest in social services.

2a. When someone says "all cops are bastards" and you say "well, not all cops," you've committed a flaw in reasoning. If there are some bad cops that aren't held accountable by their fellow officers, and are even forced out of their job by holding bad cops accountable, then what you get are complacent cops and bad cops. That is not a system where goodness is rewarded.

2b. You've also conflated an individual's values or views for the views of their JOB. The job is what we're talking about, not the person. If you're otherwise a decent person but your job is to uphold a clearly racist system, then your job is a bad one.

3. I can't believe we're still on this shit.

[Brisbot]

I think they need to change the slogan to "Black Lives Matter too" or something to that effect. So I can stop hearing "All lives matter" by people who don't understand what it is. Yeah it's not as catchy or punctual, but the only way conservatives would "refute" it, is to somehow prove there is total equality, instead of pretending the phrase means "Only Black Lives Matter", which when you get down to it, is very disingenuous of an interpretation. They're basically strawman-ing the phrase after thinking about it for .01 seconds.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Brisbot

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, rhmilo said:

4 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Yes, so we agree, the police system in the US needs to be reformed. 

You wrote

"That means out of all police-public interactions in 2015, that means approximately 0.002% ended in the death of a member of the public. So again, while one wrongful death is one too many, the amplification caused by social media and echo chambers/media bubbles makes the issue seem like genocide."

Which I read to mean you think it's not all that much. My bad

It’s bad, but not as bad as social media makes it out to be. Does that make sense?

[cwmbrancity]

[Limo]

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

It’s bad, but not as bad as social media makes it out to be. Does that make sense?

Oh, so we do disagree then. I think 1000 murders committed by the police every year is atrocious. 
 

Also, about 1 in every 1000 black men dies at the hands of the police. That is ridiculous.

[marf]

18 hours ago, Gocab said:

Native americans are native americans, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality_against_Native_Americans. Latino means latin american I guess, not some euroamerican with portugese/spanish/italian ancestry. Crackers are in the 1.2 group

 

This can't be true. I didn't google or wiki anything. But Latino, eeessh. That is very broad. Latin America a thousand years ago? Not the same people. Id wager most of Latin America is of European decent with breeding with local indigenous people and some pure bred indigenous people. But many, many tribes have been wiped out. There's even Amish people. Large German populations in Argentina. Chile. etc. I don't know. what you mean really. Is there a Latin Europe versus Caucasian Europe? Never heard of that

Edited June 27, 2020 by marf

[dingformung]

1 hour ago, marf said:

 Is there a Latin Europe

There is a Latin/Romanic Europe (also a Germanic and Slavic Europe, even a Finno-Ugric one) if you look at it from a language perspective.

1 hour ago, marf said:

Id wager most of Latin America is of European decent with breeding with local indigenous people and some pure bred indigenous people

Don't forget the descendants of African slaves the Spanish and Portuguese brought to South America. They even brought some of their religions and mixed them with Christianity and local religions, so didn't only leave a genetical mark but also a cultural one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Latin_Americans

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, rhmilo said:

Oh, so we do disagree then. I think 1000 murders committed by the police every year is atrocious. 
 

Also, about 1 in every 1000 black men dies at the hands of the police. That is ridiculous.

I also think that 1000 deaths (we don't know if they are all murders, we don't know how many of those were killing unarmed people) is completely unacceptable. One unjustifiable shooting by the police is one too many.

But what I'm saying is: social media amplifies the issue so that we cannot have rational discourse about it. Everyone goes on about how the cops are racists - but this study indicates that White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. This is an important point that speaks to police training. Again, one unjustifiable death is too many, and there needs to be a significant increase in transparency in the oversight process, but given the percentage of police interactions that result in a fatal shooting, the claim that "all cops are bastards" is a reductionist strawman (sorry Braintree - it really is - it's easy to snipe from the sidelines but when it's your livelihood on the line, in a paramilitary culture that doesn't brook dissent, I think most people would do the same).

The culture needs to change - but how do you change the culture of an organization that is designed to suppress violence? By attacking it with more violence (I am not saying that all - indeed not even most - protestors are violent, but there have been incidences where police cars have been surrounded, for example which leads to their mammalian brain plus their mandate to suppress violence combining and running over protestors)? I don't think that's an appropriate way to address the issue. Luckily we are seeing some change, and yes some of it can be attributed to protests, but again, without the right people in the right places, none of even these changes would be possible. So again I say  - vote in your local elections, write to your city councilors and reps, do that hard work. Or join the bureaucracy and try and change things that way. Protests and solutions proposed so far are really just band-aids.

It's not my issue to solve (we have other policing issues in Canada - that again get conflated with American ones because of social media), so really I've already said too much, and bored the hell out of everyone, and led others to think i'm fascist apologist (i'm just a capitalist bootlicker, really), so I'll just leave it here.

[zlemflolia]

18 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

I also think that 1000 deaths (we don't know if they are all murders, we don't know how many of those were killing unarmed people) is completely unacceptable. One unjustifiable shooting by the police is one too many.

But what I'm saying is: social media amplifies the issue so that we cannot have rational discourse about it. Everyone goes on about how the cops are racists - but this study indicates that White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. This is an important point that speaks to police training. Again, one unjustifiable death is too many, and there needs to be a significant increase in transparency in the oversight process, but given the percentage of police interactions that result in a fatal shooting, the claim that "all cops are bastards" is a reductionist strawman (sorry Braintree - it really is - it's easy to snipe from the sidelines but when it's your livelihood on the line, in a paramilitary culture that doesn't brook dissent, I think most people would do the same).

The culture needs to change - but how do you change the culture of an organization that is designed to suppress violence? By attacking it with more violence (I am not saying that all - indeed not even most - protestors are violent, but there have been incidences where police cars have been surrounded, for example which leads to their mammalian brain plus their mandate to suppress violence combining and running over protestors)? I don't think that's an appropriate way to address the issue. Luckily we are seeing some change, and yes some of it can be attributed to protests, but again, without the right people in the right places, none of even these changes would be possible. So again I say  - vote in your local elections, write to your city councilors and reps, do that hard work. Or join the bureaucracy and try and change things that way. Protests and solutions proposed so far are really just band-aids.

It's not my issue to solve (we have other policing issues in Canada - that again get conflated with American ones because of social media), so really I've already said too much, and bored the hell out of everyone, and led others to think i'm fascist apologist (i'm just a capitalist bootlicker, really), so I'll just leave it here.

you post statistics that you think prove your point, but in them you merely miss another point in your lack of understanding of the nature of white supremacy as an institutionalized psychological disorder which enables not only white supremacists, but also other people equally fucked up with other internal reasoning systems.  Why does this bolded statistic matter?

the idea that the culture needs to change is also broken, as if culture is something that can be imposed on someone in a form of cultural assimilation through which white supremacists are turned into non-white supremacists

what needs to change is the material basis of society, i.e. the relations to production, in a way that de-necessitates the need for people in positions of abusable power

[milkface]

16 hours ago, beerwolf said:

Yes this is 100% correct.

When I was growing up I was led to believe that The Empire weaved in with winning World War II was the greatest thing of all time. The British were the the force of exemplary of all great and good. This bled naturally through my environment, school, friends (all of my friends seemed to have a grandfather who fought in the war), cubs and scouts (saluting the flag, the queen etc). It was just the done thing. I don't believe any of it was sinister. That's just how things were.

But when I was 19, I went to Australia for a year. I learnt about the treatment of Aboriginals, I learnt about the genocide of Tasmanian Aboriginals, the ANZAC soldiers who were commanded by British generals to die by the thousands and of course I learnt about the treatment of poor, desperate white British folk who were shipped off to a colony for sometimes almost nothing. It all blends into one.

Then I travelled across Africa, India and lots of other countries and learnt about the British and what we did. In fact I would actually ask people what they thought of the British as I became fascinated with the picture I had as a kid and the picture that was slowly appearing before me. Actually I did meet a fair few people (maybe half) who thought the British were great lol. Whatever that's another story.

I totally understand the rebellion against all of this. But it's Friday and it's time for beer and tunes. And I still think far-lefties are absolute cunts not to be trusted.

Have a nice evening 

Just for context to my post that you replied to, I'm 19 at the moment so even in the 21st century education system, I still wasn't taught. In terms of the youth's view of the empire, it's 100% negative from the far let to the centre. You have the odd occasional posh boy who wants Thatcher to be revived and you have some racist gimps who think it's funny to say "bring back the empire" and stuff like that so I think easy access to information helps education.

Edited June 27, 2020 by milkface

[brian trageskin]

3 hours ago, chenGOD said:

I also think that 1000 deaths (we don't know if they are all murders, we don't know how many of those were killing unarmed people) is completely unacceptable. One unjustifiable shooting by the police is one too many.

But what I'm saying is: social media amplifies the issue so that we cannot have rational discourse about it. Everyone goes on about how the cops are racists - but this study indicates that White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers. This is an important point that speaks to police training. Again, one unjustifiable death is too many, and there needs to be a significant increase in transparency in the oversight process, but given the percentage of police interactions that result in a fatal shooting, the claim that "all cops are bastards" is a reductionist strawman (sorry Braintree - it really is - it's easy to snipe from the sidelines but when it's your livelihood on the line, in a paramilitary culture that doesn't brook dissent, I think most people would do the same).

The culture needs to change - but how do you change the culture of an organization that is designed to suppress violence? By attacking it with more violence (I am not saying that all - indeed not even most - protestors are violent, but there have been incidences where police cars have been surrounded, for example which leads to their mammalian brain plus their mandate to suppress violence combining and running over protestors)? I don't think that's an appropriate way to address the issue. Luckily we are seeing some change, and yes some of it can be attributed to protests, but again, without the right people in the right places, none of even these changes would be possible. So again I say  - vote in your local elections, write to your city councilors and reps, do that hard work. Or join the bureaucracy and try and change things that way. Protests and solutions proposed so far are really just band-aids.

It's not my issue to solve (we have other policing issues in Canada - that again get conflated with American ones because of social media), so really I've already said too much, and bored the hell out of everyone, and led others to think i'm fascist apologist (i'm just a capitalist bootlicker, really), so I'll just leave it here.

  the level of denial you're displaying is disturbing 

you don't want change, you want order and protection of your interests. classic closet conservative

 

[chenGOD]

Gotta love you two. 

first zeff accuses me of missing the point of the racist system after a post where I discuss how the system needs changing, and brian comes out with an ad hominem and performs some mind reading. 
 

 

[brian trageskin]

it appears that my trolling met with success

 

[chenGOD]

2 hours ago, brian trageskin said:

it appears that my trolling met with success

 

Did you just admit to trolling? On a forum where trolling is verboten?