Anti-vaxxers

[user]

It's kind of inevitable and pointless to bring it up, isn't it? OTOH it's also kind of silly and counterproductive to shout people down and make up some facts because you're right and feel the details don't matter. The Dutch government for example paid 5 million euro in settlements to the families of kids that permanently developed narcolepsy after they received the pandremix vaccine. Although it's controversial wether or not the narcolepsy was caused by the vaccine I feel it's better to stay with the facts rather than dismiss them, it's fuel on the anti-vaccination/conspiracy fire. 

I should probably stfu.  

[dcom]

17 minutes ago, user said:

The Dutch government for example paid 5 million euro in settlements to the families of kids that permanently developed narcolepsy after they received the pandremix vaccine. Although it's controversial wether or not the narcolepsy was caused by the vaccine I feel it's better to stay with the facts rather than dismiss them, it's fuel on the anti-vaccination/conspiracy fire.

Finland has paid over 12 million € in damages to 460 people who got adverse side-effects (out of which 11,6 million for narcolepsy) from Pandemrix. The Finnish government has earmarked 30 million €/year for COVID-19 vaccine compensations, 300 million € in the long term (here's the article with the figures through Google Translate from Finnish to English).

Edited January 22, 2021 by dcom

[user]

37 minutes ago, dcom said:

Finland has paid over 12 million € in damages to 460 people who got adverse side-effects (out of which 11,6 million for narcolepsy) from Pandemrix. The Finnish government has earmarked 30 million €/year for COVID-19 vaccine compensations, 300 million € in the long term (here's the article with the figures through Google Translate from Finnish to English).

Thanks for that. Seems like a smart and pragmatic move. Hopefully other countries will follow this example.

[Limo]

59 minutes ago, user said:

It's kind of inevitable and pointless to bring it up, isn't it?

The point I was trying to make was that side effects for vaccines don’t take years to develop, they appear quickly. Such as in the case of Pandemrix. It took a couple of months at most for the narcolepsy to appear.

Talking about the possibility of long term side effects is fear mongering.

Also, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have very well understood side effects: they cause anaphylactic shock in a small segment of the population. Nobody is denying that.

[drome]

On 1/22/2021 at 5:42 PM, markedone said:

(ditto what braintree said)

also @dromeyou dont seem to understand that you denouncing 'maskers and vaxxers' is not a passive/defensive stance but rather active violence against society you live in

Of course I do. Ffs. I’m not denouncing maskers and vaxxers for nothing. Reasonable discussion about the draconian measures we’ve seen is simply dismissed and treated with utter contempt. Insulting labels like anti-masker, anti vaxxer and nut job are constantly bandied about. People attack you as a herd (always the usual suspects), as constantly happens to me on this forum whenever I offer different opinions/perspectives. So they deserve some of their own medicine... or a jab or two of my own (excuse the pun).

For crying out loud, Fauci (the corrupt little shit) and others are saying ‘do as you’re told’ as though full grown adults are hapless children. Other media types are calling for ‘no jab, no job’. As for those that don’t comply? Lock them in their homes and ban them from society, apparently.

What kind of sick despotic shit is this!?

All off the back of: fishy figures (adding those that die of completely different issues to the list of covid deaths, when they tested positive for covid weeks earlier), extremely high survival rates, asymptomatic transmission, experimental/rushed vaccines, endless barrage of fear mongering from media news (or brainwashing, more accurately), destruction of millions of livelihoods, increased censorship, bunk science  etc etc etc.

I’m all for individual responsibility and I act with caution and respect in public places, but I’ll be damned if I sit by and remain silent when this madness is forced upon us.

We know all too well what damage the scourge of authoritarianism has done to humanity throughout the course of human history.

 

 

[dingformung]

1 hour ago, drome said:

What kind of sick despotic shit is this!?

Making you wear a mask and take a vaccine in order to keep a pandemic from spreading and literally kill hundreds of thousands of people sounds pretty reasonable to me. I think you should direct your infantile emotions of "righteous anger" onto something else less serious. I know you are an angry manchild/-teenager but please live out your belated puberty with a different subject.

1 hour ago, drome said:

authoritarianism

You know nothing about authoritarianism, obviously. Ask people who actually live/lived in a dictatorship about this sort of stuff.

[danshoebridge]

Well this last fortnight pretty much my whole department got their first vaccine dose (patient-facing work in Oxford, UK). Some folks in the vulnerable groups have now also got their second. On a purely anecdotal level can report that:

Most people got a bit of a reaction over the next 24 hours.
Common reactions were headache, nausea, neuralgia.
Cleared up pretty quickly.
No severe reactions.

Personally felt like I'd aged about 20 years for a day or so after jab 1. Felt remarkably good the day after that funnily enough. I had Covid back in March and compared to the long term fatigue and blood pressure issues I'd go for the vaccine any day

[custom knob]

2 hours ago, drome said:

Of course I do. Ffs. I’m not denouncing maskers and vaxxers for nothing. Reasonable discussion about the draconian measures we’ve seen is simply dismissed and treated with utter contempt. Insulting labels like anti-masker, anti vaxxer and nut job are constantly bandied about. People attack you as a herd (always the usual suspects), as constantly happens to me on this forum whenever I offer different opinions/perspectives. So they deserve some of their own medicine... or a jab or two of my own (excuse the pun).

For crying out loud, Fauci (the corrupt little shit) and others are saying ‘do as you’re told’ as though full grown adults are hapless children. Other media types are calling for ‘no jab, no job’. As for those that don’t comply? Lock them in their homes and ban them from society, apparently.

What kind of sick despotic shit is this!?

All off the back of: fishy figures (adding those that die of completely different issues to the list of covid deaths, when they tested positive for covid weeks earlier), extremely high survival rates, asymptomatic transmission, experimental/rushed vaccines, endless barrage of fear mongering from media news (or brainwashing, more accurately), destruction of millions of livelihoods, increased censorship, bunk science  etc etc etc.

I’m all for individual responsibility and I act with caution and respect in public places, but I’ll be damned if I sit by and remain silent when this madness is forced upon us.

We know all too well what damage the scourge of authoritarianism has done to humanity throughout the course of human history.

 

 

hypotheticals are annoying but:

if this virus were ebola or similar level of lethality?

what is it reasonable for a government to ask its people to do in order to save lives? and how many lives/inconvenience?

 

for what its worth, i don't think anyone should be forced to take a vaccine, but restricting unvaccinated people from certain jobs is absolutely fine in my book

if you don't have a pertussis jab for instance - you shouldn't be allowed to work in a neonatal intensive care unit

 

 

[danshoebridge]

And Drome, one solution you're not seeing here maybe? You state the mortality / morbidity from Covid is massively overstated - if you're unwilling to take a vaccine or even wear a mask how would you feel purposely contracting Covid then isolating for a fortnight? That's surely consistent with your own logic and at least this way the only person you're putting at risk is yourself.

The reason people are ticked off at your no mask / no vaxx stance is that you're gambling OTHER people's lives over what you must admit is a viewpoint not shared by 99% of the scientific community.

[brian trageskin]

@drome  

- fishy figures: maybe you're right on this but i bet you haven't checked the data yourself to see if that claim is true 

- extremely high survival rate: not for a certain demographic (but yeah they're a small minority, i get what you're saying)

- asymptomatic transmission: what are you trying to say? transmission must be symptomatic for you to trust the scientific community on this or what?

- experimental/rushed vaccines: they've been tested already, they're not experimental. rushed? not really. i hear that side effects appear quite quickly so you don't need to wait years to see them, which is why the vaccines are already on the market (i haven't checked myself, i'm just repeating what's been said already on the forum) 

- destruction of millions of livelihoods: that's probably true but what shoud have been done instead? i personally don't know (for example)

- increased censorship: i get what you're saying and i'm personally against any form of censorship but the thing is, false claims can result in people putting themselves or others at risk. i'm not a fan of that kind of method though 

- bunk science: don't know where you've read bunk science but i bet you're not knowledgeable on the subject and haven't read the scientific literature on the subject (neither am i and neither have i but i choose to trust the scientific community since they're probably more competent than i to know what's what regarding scientific topics - i'm not saying i haven't checked stuff myself and remained completely ignorant, i'm just saying i only scratched the surface of those topics) 

anyway thanks for having elaborated on your thoughts, it adds substance to your claims and makes it easier for us to understand your view

 

[usagi]

On 23/01/2021 at 4:42 AM, Braintree said:

*wants to reap society's benefits but doesn't want to adhere to the society's social contract*

libertarians in a nutshell. for this reason they're always the biggest idiots on any given political spectrum, regardless of whether they lean left or right.

[brian trageskin]

@drome i'd like to clarify one point 

i said i choose to trust the scientific community since they're more knowledgeable regarding scientific topics. i realize this could be interpreted as me having blind faith in authority figures. 

the thing is science has a robust methodology to acquire knowledge, so that when someone claims something is so-and-so, others can determine whether that's true or not. so when the vast majority of the scientific community agrees on something being so-and-so, i choose to trust their conclusions without verifying the facts because i know the method they used to reach them is the safest. i don't have serious reasons to doubt their competence or to suspect i'm being lied to, so it would be irrational of me to think those people may not have been cautious enough in their reasoning, which may have made them jump to conclusions, just like it would be irrational to suspect i've been lied to in the absence of solid evidence.

the irony is that those who believe those vaccines could be harmful are the ones not being careful enough in their reasoning and jumping to conclusions in the absence of solid evidence: there's something fishy about this, am i being manipulated? when in doubt, leave it out. 

have i got solid evidence that we're being lied to or manipulated? am i sure what i have is enough to draw this or that conclusion? what's there to know about the subject to be able to think critically about it? these are some of the questions i'd ask myself before drawing any conclusion that contradicts the majority of the scientific community. 

to be honest with you, i used to believe all sorts of things. i don't anymore. i changed my mind as a result of years of introspection but also because i got familiar with the scientific method and critical thinking, skepticism, epistemology (my long journey began with an interest in skepticism and epistemology). 

how familiar are you with the scientific method and epistemology? i'm only asking because there's this pattern i see around me: those who are skeptical about this whole covid mess are not well versed in those, more often than not.

my sister-in-law, for example, has been very skeptical about all this from the beginning and i can tell she has no clue as to how science works (even though she has a much higher level of education than me). she contracted covid btw. and then you have people like my mum, who's very skeptical when she has a scientific background (she's a retired pharmacist). after long talks with her, i can tell she has no clue how epistemology works. oh yeah i forgot about my ex who's skeptical about vaccines because her mum is (my ex is the most irrational person i've ever met btw). 

didn't expect this post to be so long, sorry about that

 

 

 

[ignatius]

delete your facebook if you can. 

 

 

[jaderpansen]

3 minutes ago, ignatius said:

delete your facebook if you can.

'fraid i can't since i never had one in the first place. -_-