Who is Q-Anon? (it's Ron Watkins) the surprising origin story of the Q scam, and the man who now seems to be in control of it

[cichlisuite]

3 hours ago, ignatius said:

i agree.. i mean.. the tools today are much more sophisticated and totally free from regulation. essentially stealth. roll in the addiction aspect of social media and it's another thing completely. 

i do think there's unexpected consequences as there probably were in the Hearst era but probably factored in as collateral damage and maybe expected in some vague way.

Unexpected consequences would be like if we, as people, recognized the threat, overcame our differences, realize us being brainwashed, etc, and act to expunge the corporate usurpers. Otherwise, everything is going according to plan, because the plan is to make the power of the people moot and the unexpected collateral damage (even if harmful to some extent) serves to prepare the ground to escalate the repression and control at a whim. As in, it's easier to rebuild a city to your liking after it was destroyed, than to rebuild it on top of the existing structures.

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, cichlisuite said:

Well if I'm nitpicking, you're taking Sun Tzu a bit out of context here, he is talking about warfare.

Sun Tzu is of course, most famous for writing about warfare, but his work(if it was just one person) certainly reached into politics, which would have been necessary in that time. He would have certainly advocated for using duplicity in cultivating loyalty.

With respect to passivism in Daoism, it literally measn to follow the path, so a political leader would not be shaping narrative. What does wu wei mean to you? It certainly doesn't mean doing nothing, but it is definitely not actively shaping the course of the narrative.

[cichlisuite]

11 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

Sun Tzu is of course, most famous for writing about warfare, but his work(if it was just one person) certainly reached into politics, which would have been necessary in that time. He would have certainly advocated for using duplicity in cultivating loyalty.

With respect to passivism in Daoism, it literally measn to follow the path, so a political leader would not be shaping narrative. What does wu wei mean to you? It certainly doesn't mean doing nothing, but it is definitely not actively shaping the course of the narrative.

Grand strategy is shaped through policy, and Clausewitz said that war is a continuation of politics by other means and there certainly is an overlap between politics and warfare.

But before we continue with this, I must ask you if you actually read Sun Tzu's Art of War and Lao Tzu's Dao de Jing? Because apart from us being a bit off topic, you're missing the point about Daoism and its tenets about nation leaders. It's definitely not as simple as "a leader does not shape the course of narrative". And I believe the whole Tao philosophy is too huge a topic to make some inaccurate generalizations for the sake of arguments. Also, a Daoist leader would never use psychological warfare. We were talking about the supposed beginning of engineering public opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't speak Chinese, and I'm not familiar with wu wei (I've looked it up though), but I've read Dao de Jing, and Dao (or Tao) is supposed to mean "Way" (also Path, Road) not "follow the path" which I think are two different things. But I'm no Taoist philosopher, nor a Chinese speaker so what do I know.

 

[may be rude]

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

21 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

 

wylie describes the CA service as payload, targetting and delivery. a complete weapons system. they constructed rabbit holes, designed them to be as spready and motivating as possible, and delivered them to the people who would be the most susceptible to them, and who would share them the most. 

seems like you're factually off on what CA did. seeding narratives in an engineered way, call it propaganda, is something they did.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-43472347

Expand  

Seems like we're differing in our definition. I'm talking about creating actual disinformation, while the analyst from CA talks about how they would link facebook profiles to blog sites or "news" sites that created the disinfo. I suppose I would say that CA would be a spreader, rather than a creator.

i think you're wrong. CA created content, including false information and designed narratives.

 

wylie wasn't really an analyst, he was the architect of the system.

 

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

I just wanted to say that for the record, it sure sounds like you were making that claim.

you incorrectly assumed implicit information. my explicit statement did not make that claim.

 

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

I also stand by my claim that focusing on this issue avoids the real issue of conomic inequality.

seems a lot like a whataboutism fallacy, and i think it's strange that you're missing the point. i'm trying to remember, are you canadian? in the US, shared facts are gone. there's an information situation. please stop working to LOWER awareness of this real and incredibly threatening issue. i have to worry about the fall of democracy, nuclear war, and runaway climate change. help me out over here. 

 

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

If progressives want to start pushing the overton window back left, that's where they need to focus.

this is interesting

 

8 hours ago, chenGOD said:

Democrats need to get out en masse and vote in the upcoming midterms, especially in the swing states. It would be wild if everyone who had to took a sick day to go and vote (I mean it should be a national holiday, but hey, one step at a time).

yeah man. 2022 will be similarly dire to 2020, as will 2024, if things don't improve. i need to plan my life alongside a distressingly unstable political situation.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by trying to be less rude

[chenGOD]

3 hours ago, cichlisuite said:

Grand strategy is shaped through policy, and Clausewitz said that war is a continuation of politics by other means and there certainly is an overlap between politics and warfare.

But before we continue with this, I must ask you if you actually read Sun Tzu's Art of War and Lao Tzu's Dao de Jing? Because apart from us being a bit off topic, you're missing the point about Daoism and its tenets about nation leaders. It's definitely not as simple as "a leader does not shape the course of narrative". And I believe the whole Tao philosophy is too huge a topic to make some inaccurate generalizations for the sake of arguments. Also, a Daoist leader would never use psychological warfare. We were talking about the supposed beginning of engineering public opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't speak Chinese, and I'm not familiar with wu wei (I've looked it up though), but I've read Dao de Jing, and Dao (or Tao) is supposed to mean "Way" (also Path, Road) not "follow the path" which I think are two different things. But I'm no Taoist philosopher, nor a Chinese speaker so what do I know.

 

Yes I have read both of those and yes we’re off topic, and yes it’s simplistic but I don’t think a Daoist would conduct social engineering either. It’s more about adapting yourself (or your policies, in the case of statecraft) to the frantic actions of those around you, to achieve your goals. It’s also a classic strategy in Chinese military tactics.

my understanding is that Dao literally translated does mean “the way” but in the context of the title can include “follow the way”. 

[chenGOD]

4 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

wylie wasn't really an analyst, he was the architect of the system.

This is wrong: aleksandr kogan created the system.

https://theconversation.com/amp/how-cambridge-analyticas-facebook-targeting-model-really-worked-according-to-the-person-who-built-it-94078

and here is how the system “worked”:

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2018/3/23/17151916/facebook-cambridge-analytica-trump-diagram

4 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

seems a lot like a whataboutism fallacy, and i think it's strange that you're missing the point. i'm trying to remember, are you canadian? in the US, shared facts are gone. there's an information situation. please stop working to LOWER awareness of this real and incredibly threatening issue. i have to worry about the fall of democracy, nuclear war, and runaway climate change. help me out over here. 

Saying that this issue of CA and psychographic warfare is not the issue is not whataboutism. The research shows that results of this program were questionable. And even the creator of the program (Kogan) doubts the effectiveness. 

 

4 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

 there's an information situation.

This is different from the CA issue, and we don’t disagree that there is an information situation. You’d do more to fix that by trying to ban disinformation sites like the ones that got pumped out of  places like Macedonia.

Finally,

You don’t have to worry about nuclear war for two reasons: 1) it is highly unlikely that it will ever happen; and 2) there is literally nothing you can do to effect change on that issue (I am assuming you don’t have access to the nuclear launch codes, nor do you provide strategic military advice to Biden…).

[may be rude]

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

This is wrong: aleksandr kogan created the system

you seem to be arguing based on an assumption that there is only one architect? wylie was one of the architects. kogan knew some parts better.

 

1 hour ago, chenGOD said:

Saying that this issue of CA and psychographic warfare is not the issue is not whataboutism. The research shows that results of this program were questionable. And even the creator of the program (Kogan) doubts the effectiveness. 

ca was a relatively small program. my original point was about the information situation, using ca to illustrate modern manipulation dynamics, which i think is important. you saying economic inequality means i shouldn't suggest this is important frankly lands as ridiculous. not sure if non-sequitor or red herring are more apt fallacies. i'm talking about information warfare in the information warfare thread

Edited December 10, 2021 by trying to be less rude

[chenGOD]

4 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

ca to illustrate modern manipulation dynamics, which i think is important.

Which I’m saying the research generally shows that these modern manipulation dynamics are not as important as they have been made out to be. I’d be way more concerned if trump had won by a landslide, but he lost the popular vote (by quite a lot iirc).

Which is why fixing the underlying economic conditions is much more important. Dems showing that they are actually fixing things will have a bigger impact on the electorate, along with sustained get out the vote efforts. 
 

Now, I’m not saying that disinformation or propaganda isn’t a problem, because obviously it is. But I do not believe that this particular issue around CA is anything more than a distraction. I guess luckily for you, my opinion means less than yours in the US, since I don’t live there. 
 

QAnon seems much more like a cult these days. Another grift around trump. 
 

4 hours ago, trying to be less rude said:

you seem to be arguing based on an assumption that there is only one architect? wylie was one of the architects. kogan knew some parts better.

I don’t inherently trust Wylie. He claimed to have worked in the office of the leader of the official opposition (here in Canada) when he was a teen, he likely was an intern there for a couple of months.

He has also claimed that the fashion industry was a huge tool in getting trump elected and is fascinated by spy agencies and power.
To me it just seems like he read the Blue Ant trilogy by William Gibson and tried to put that to life (probably a glib take), but something makes me think Wylie is also a grifter. 
 

This is a much better example of how information was used to harm American democracy:
https://archive.md/tnXu4

[may be rude]

@chenGOD

 

you can point to research that says they couldn't measure the overall impact of combined modern deception but why would they? it's not like entities that decide to run info ops log into a guest book and report what they're doing.

 

there are a lot of reasons to think that deceptive practices unique to the modern info channels are a major factor in the narratives that decide elections. polling in 2016 was historically off. trump got 10 million more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. 

 

you're kind of trying to convince me that i don't live under the sky and you're not moving me.

 

i know people who are taken by this stuff. i see the victims. it's weird. it didn't used to be this way.

 

i see the narratives pushed and i see the narratives believed. i see the narratives designed, and i see them work. i see them spreading through lineages of people like tv and radio never did. i see a consistent methodology applied to a vast scope of people because it's working. we're dealing with fascism down here and it's pushed through the internet.

 

again as i've SAID TO YOU HERE, i know it's hard to measure and prove the overall problem. that doesn't mean it's not there. it would be good to develop better proofs but you're not going to troll me into forming a historic meta study for you on watmm.

 

please leave me alone. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by trying to be less rude

[Alcofribas]

lol

[cichlisuite]

11 hours ago, chenGOD said:

my understanding is that Dao literally translated does mean “the way” but in the context of the title can include “follow the way”. 

ok. here we differ, let's leave it at that.

[ignatius]

so, Ron Watkins is a Taoist?

[zero]

^ dunno about that. but I do know he is a massive fucking d-bag for starting this Q anon crap, and turning what should have been an online fringe movement into something that is actually having an effect on our political system here in the US. the fact that people believe this nonsense is pathetic, and relates back to what V Honest/Less Rude has gone on here about people not able to filter out the fiction from the facts...

[chronical]

Just now, zero said:

^ dunno about that. but I do know he is a massive fucking d-bag for starting this Q anon crap, and turning what should have been an online fringe movement into something that is actually having an effect on our political system here in the US. the fact that people believe this nonsense is pathetic, and relates back to what V Honest/Less Rude has gone on here about people not able to filter out the fiction from the facts...

Not just in the US though! Switzerland is full of spoiled alt semi hippies who buy into their shit.

[may be rude]

4 hours ago, chenGOD said:

I don’t inherently trust Wylie

why would you inherently trust anyone?

 

you should read his book. it's an amazing and important book.

 

 

[chenGOD]

48 minutes ago, cichlisuite said:

ok. here we differ, let's leave it at that.

Very daoist

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, trying to be less rude said:

there are a lot of reasons to think that deceptive practices unique to the modern info channels are a major factor in the narratives that decide elections. polling in 2016 was historically off. trump got 10 million more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016. 

 

So he got more votes in 2020, when they weren't using the services of CA and SCL, than in 2016?

Yeah, Wylie is out there trying to sell his book.

Anyways, I'll leave you alone now.

[chenGOD]

1 hour ago, ignatius said:

so, Ron Watkins is a Taoist?

No no, he's a digital civil rights activist.... https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/ron-watkins-qanon-digital-rosa-parks-1247187/

41 minutes ago, chronical said:

Not just in the US though! Switzerland is full of spoiled alt semi hippies who buy into their shit.

It's funny, I have a friend in japan who was describing an anti-vax party where both long-haired hippies (the vaccine is like, totally not natural man) and right-wing nationalists (this is a global conspiracy for global government) were hanging out being, you know, unvaxxed. Seems like that desire to rebel against perceived injustices is broad indeed.

[may be rude]

2 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

So he got more votes in 2020, when they weren't using the services of CA and SCL, than in 2016?

Yeah, Wylie is out there trying to sell his book.

Anyways, I'll leave you alone now.

you keep trying the same strawman. how many times do i have to make clear my point was about the general modern online manipulation methodologies? it was clear in my first post but you keep wanting to act like my argument rests on the impact of ca alone.

 

i know better than you how small of an operation ca was. i never claimed it was the thing, though you are having trouble accepting that. regardless of how big it was, it demonstrated scary methodology which is hard to monitor and which can be replicated. i made that clear in my first post on page 13 that triggered you.

[may be rude]

and just to be clear, i am not saying that ca was ineffectual. it was so potent that it spooked the architect into being a whistleblower at tremendous cost to himself. for its size, it was impressive. i think they were funded like 5 mil or something, though they got some money indirectly.

 

SCL is the real firm, they did more across many countries. info ops stuff. ca was a white label. 

 

read the book. it's hard to find good books.

Edited December 10, 2021 by trying to be less rude

[ignatius]

15 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

No no, he's a digital civil rights activist

also a longshot congressional candidate in arizona. 

all this reminds of this one line from a Mr. Show skit about the super pan. 

 

4 minutes ago, trying to be less rude said:

and just to be clear, i am not saying that ca was ineffectual. it was so potent that it spooked the architect into being a whistleblower at tremendous cost to himself.

i also think he was trying to cover is own ass though right? i mean.. in case something legal hit the fan he was getting out ahead of it a little. not 100% his only motivation but i think there's some essence of that in his actions.. same way there's an essence of fruit flavor in fizzy water. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by ignatius

[chenGOD]

 

3 minutes ago, trying to be less rude said:

i know better than you how small of an operation ca was. i never claimed it was the thing, though you are having trouble accepting that.... i made that clear in my first post on page 13 that triggered you.

 

On 12/7/2021 at 4:29 PM, trying to be less rude said:

i don't think enough people appreciate what cambridge analytica demonstrated. imagine being able to decide who gets power. this was a new force unleashed on earth: systemized psychological manipulation through the internet, at industrial scale, and able to deliver measurable results.

 

Does that sound you're describing a small operation?

You talk about the impact this messaging has - I'm trying to tell you, fix the underlying economic issues,improve access to quality education, and people will be much less likely to buy in to the scare-mongering and fake news. It's easy to be scared of something that's different when your economic world has crumbled around you.

This shows that while Republicans distrust their main mews sources to a larger extent than Democrats, the majority still have some trust in their main news source. Also those who are older (more economically secure) and better educated (college degree) exhibit more trust in their main news sources:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/01/republicans-less-likely-to-trust-their-main-news-source-if-they-see-it-as-mainstream-democrats-more-likely/

[may be rude]

5 minutes ago, ignatius said:

also a longshot congressional candidate in arizona. 

all this reminds of this one line from a Mr. Show skit about the super pan. 

 

i also think he was trying to cover is own ass though right? i mean.. in case something legal hit the fan he was getting out ahead of it a little. not 100% his only motivation but i think there's some essence of that in his actions.. same way there's an essence of fruit flavor in fizzy water. 

there are lots of interviews that can be listened to and watched. his book is honestly a profound gem. your suggestion could be applied to most whistleblowers but does not demonstrate a lack of righteous motive. i'm very convinced that wylie acted out of selfless duty to society.

Edited December 10, 2021 by trying to be less rude

[chenGOD]

10 minutes ago, trying to be less rude said:

t spooked the architect into being a whistleblower at tremendous cost to himself.

He started his own company (which couldn't deliver on his promises - he tried a pilot project for a Candian political party and did not receive the actual contract), and is pushing a book. Sure sounds like a tremendous cost. Did he face any jail time or financial penalty for illegally using the Facebook data?

[may be rude]

6 minutes ago, chenGOD said:

 

 

 

Does that sound you're describing a small operation?

You talk about the impact this messaging has - I'm trying to tell you, fix the underlying economic issues,improve access to quality education, and people will be much less likely to buy in to the scare-mongering and fake news. It's easy to be scared of something that's different when your economic world has crumbled around you.

This shows that while Republicans distrust their main mews sources to a larger extent than Democrats, the majority still have some trust in their main news source. Also those who are older (more economically secure) and better educated (college degree) exhibit more trust in their main news sources:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/01/republicans-less-likely-to-trust-their-main-news-source-if-they-see-it-as-mainstream-democrats-more-likely/

dude stop transforming what i said into something you want to attack. i already addressed your interpretation vs the intended meaning on page 13. i stand by what i said and you do not get to tell me what i meant. i guess i should have phrased it differently so as to not trigger you so hard. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by trying to be less rude