syd syside

@MattSoleyn Chosun: PRK (South #Korea) no longer knows where two #DPRK submarines that left base earlier this week are.

Pentagon's number two advocated bombing NK 7 years ago when he was at Harvard. http://nation.time.com/2013/04/03/current-top-pentagon-official-urged-bombing-north-koreawhen-he-was-on-the-sidelines/

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gpuimXzka5inwGnL0c9vZsbQ54fw?docId=CNG.4eb43e27607cb9d4be6b952b88ddefeb.01

AFP's twitter feed: Quote: #UPDATE: North Korea approves nuclear strike on US http://bit.ly/14DtDed http://www.damninteresting.com/ww2-america-warned-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-citizens/

"which kills hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians per year." I'm not denying this as much as asking for some specifics... I'm critical of the CIA and US foreign policy, but I think you are making my point in that you are trying to negate my criticism against terrorist groups, religious extremists, totalitarian governments etc by claiming and exaggerating the effects of US foreign policy on the rest of the world. My argument is that one can simply have a more versatile approach to all of the above without needing to make rash unsupported claims. When I say "the real enemies" I mean people, institutions, governments that are in affect completely in favor of totalitarian beliefs and institutions. The United States has some of the best freedom of speech laws in the world. And it has an immense amount of power that does get misused and corrupted in evil ways as well... So we as people should criticize the miss use when we see it, but not to stop there. To not contribute and to claim superiority over others (by calling them idiots or bigots) who communicate a logical distaste for governments like NK and people like Osama Bin Laden is a mistake. Real enemies are the enemies that openly declare to be our enemy. People like Hamas who call for the death and destruction of all Jews while using a "holy book" to justify stoning gay people or oppressing women's rights..... or a government like NK who starve their people and brainwash them/strict them of all basic human rights. I mean need only look at the Syrian civil war to see what the real enemy ideologies and institutions are. There is no hiding from this fact and I don't know why it is so difficult for people who say they are for protecting the individual to focus or comment on this stuff without in so many ways blaming it all on the United States. It is, as I have said, a self-destructive and defeatist attitude that gets us nowhere as a collective. Relies too much on conspiracy, fear, and paranoia to be of any benefit with making positive change. This:

Yeah what Compson posted has very much perked my interest but it's very far off from the North Korea topic Perhaps I will make a thread on this topic sometime. As I agree, this is off-topic. The only reason I brought it up is that I find the perspective of the New World Order (even casual suspicion) or US imperialism being the root or cause of most evil elsewhere in the world unnecessary; as it waters down the issues and casts westerners against their own institutions and ideals (unknowingly). Once you make these extraordinary claims, you essentially put yourself in a self destructive mindset. The mindset that we westerners also live in a totalitarian state. A state where you and I as individuals have no individual power to improve reality unless we overthrow our government. A momentous challenge indeed and a dangerous one as well. One that divides us by relying not on facts but conspiracy (so in that sense, kind of like a Religion). What I think we need are more liberals standing up for our ideals and criticizing anyone who tramples on them (including the US government). Not with force necessarily, but sometimes. As our world becomes more and more interconnected (globalism) we need to realize that there are governments, religions, and dare I say terrorist organizations (gasp) that do not agree with our ideals and wish to impose their supreme authority on us and on individuals who were simply by chance born into it. Think for a second about growing up in a extremist Islamic terrorist organization, being brought up in that way... where there is no real free will to dissent or disagree with their violent/religious motivations. This is the real enemy. By oversimplifying and exaggerating this issue as some kind of NWO conspiracy we are dividing our nation further and allowing more violent and oppressive outlets from getting their much needed fair share of criticism. Abby Martin does a great job of bringing the evils of the US Government to light, but without a more balanced and nuanced approach, she is in essence suggesting all problems are rooted from a dozen or so elite bankers. Our understanding of human nature and the world is too small to suggest this. In no ways is my declaration that the NK Government is a repugnant/evil example of civilized society a simplification. It's a clear understanding of what we are dealing with. And only through a more united and less divisive United States can we begin to attempt to remove the corporate power that keeps us divided and fearful (two party system). If we can at least agree on what we stand for and who is against us we might make some progress with diplomatic pressure and activism. And don't forget the U.S. government, which kills hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians per year. As far as being a threat to humanity, they are worse than all of the terrorist groups in the world combined. Can you be more specific with that death toll per year?

lol

Yeah what Compson posted has very much perked my interest but it's very far off from the North Korea topic Perhaps I will make a thread on this topic sometime. As I agree, this is off-topic. The only reason I brought it up is that I find the perspective of the New World Order (even casual suspicion) or US imperialism being the root or cause of most evil elsewhere in the world unnecessary; as it waters down the issues and casts westerners against their own institutions and ideals (unknowingly). Once you make these extraordinary claims, you essentially put yourself in a self destructive mindset. The mindset that we westerners also live in a totalitarian state. A state where you and I as individuals have no individual power to improve reality unless we overthrow our government. A momentous challenge indeed and a dangerous one as well. One that divides us by relying not on facts but conspiracy (so in that sense, kind of like a Religion). What I think we need are more liberals standing up for our ideals and criticizing anyone who tramples on them (including the US government). Not with force necessarily, but sometimes. As our world becomes more and more interconnected (globalism) we need to realize that there are governments, religions, and dare I say terrorist organizations (gasp) that do not agree with our ideals and wish to impose their supreme authority on us and on individuals who were simply by chance born into it. Think for a second about growing up in a extremist Islamic terrorist organization, being brought up in that way... where there is no real free will to dissent or disagree with their violent/religious motivations. This is the real enemy. By oversimplifying and exaggerating this issue as some kind of NWO conspiracy we are dividing our nation further and allowing more violent and oppressive outlets from getting their much needed fair share of criticism. Abby Martin does a great job of bringing the evils of the US Government to light, but without a more balanced and nuanced approach, she is in essence suggesting all problems are rooted from a dozen or so elite bankers. Our understanding of human nature and the world is too small to suggest this. In no ways is my declaration that the NK Government is a repugnant/evil example of civilized society a simplification. It's a clear understanding of what we are dealing with. And only through a more united and less divisive United States can we begin to attempt to remove the corporate power that keeps us divided and fearful (two party system). If we can at least agree on what we stand for and who is against us we might make some progress with diplomatic pressure and activism.

"The NK people are literally in a totalitarian hell." "NK in its current form is like a cancer. The people who live inside, live in what I think is fair to call hell and the people who run its government are evil." "The new left is becoming more and more fascist and totalitarian in with their double-talk." I mostly agree with all of these statements (except maybe the last one...can you define "new left"?). That said, it is quite possible that I am missing some crucial bits of information. Which brings up an interesting point: often in debates like this there is the (erroneous) belief that everyone is in possession of all the same information, and that the differences in people's position are based solely on different held values (which is the only logical conclusion of the first premise). I would hazard a guess that if everyone in this thread experienced some sort of PKDesque anamnesis where we all knew every detail of every single thing that had every happened in the universe, our opinions would align/overlap by 99.99%. Interesting perspective and I agree. I don't claim to know everything, but I am not afraid to state my viewpoint in a thread like this so that debate and discussion can drive myself and others closer to the truth. Those who are disregarding my attacks against NK and claiming it is instead the United States who is responsible are simply ignoring the reality of the situation and using this issue as a way to spread their agenda imo. This is an example of the new left/progressive that I am speaking of. For example, Obama supporters and many liberals today would rather suggest that it is simply US involvement in the middle east that is causing the violence, intolerance and ignorance in those regions. When I submit attacks against Islam, as a religious totalitarian parasite, the new left, instead of standing up in agreement and support against intolerance of women's rights, gay rights etc etc, they instead simplify my viewpoint as racist or Islamophobic. For example a couple of days ago Richard Dawkins said this on twitter: After backlash against him, the critics accused of him of being ignorant because he had not read the Qur'an. To which he responded: A bit later, his facebook account was hacked by Islamic activists/hackers and he was then accused of being an Islamophobe by Salon (well known for their progressive/new left views) http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/ So essentially, the new left thinks that criticizing Religion or Islam is wrong because it is in no way responsible for the culture and development of the Middle East. So people who claim to be liberal or for social justice are actually directing their attacks more on the West (which is far from some ideal example of social justice) but wishes to suppress people's freedom of speech against Islam. This in of itself showcases how these new leftists are drifting away from the ideals of secularism and freedom of speech. Their viewpoints boil down to Noam Chomsky's simplification that all evil and oppression is caused by Western imperialism when if you look at the Middle East and Arabs, the most free and least oppressed are those who live in Israel. But instead of supporting Israel ideals, they support Palestine and Hamas, who are intolerant of gays, intolerant of freedom of speech, and are incompatible with the ideals that we fortunately have. They call for the destruction and death of all Jews. If you can show me where one western country has called for the destruction and death of all Arabs in the Middle East, you may have a point. But the criticism is not directed towards a race, its directed towards the suppression of human rights. I care deeply for the individual, not for the institutions. And any individual who is gay, a women, or who does not agree with Islam suffers oppression in those regions.

"The NK people are literally in a totalitarian hell." "NK in its current form is like a cancer. The people who live inside, live in what I think is fair to call hell and the people who run its government are evil." "The new left is becoming more and more fascist and totalitarian in with their double-talk." Here's a question, would you rather live in the US or North Korea? Do you agree that the NK government currently is so vicious and delusional that most people who escape NK can't even normalize and live happily in SK or the US? And I never said the new left is totalitarian or fascist, I simply said they are moving in that direction by defending states or institutions that are totalitarian or fascist (Islam). If you seriously think you've proven some point, by comparing my statement of NK being evil or totalitarian and Awepittance's point that the United States is the root of most death and destruction of the past 50 years, then yes! you've proven my point that the new left is moving towards fascism and totalitarian beliefs.

Again, if you want to talk about simplification ... black vs white... good vs. evil etc... this is a prime example of absurd claims without much substance. The US Government has been involved in conflicts, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, but to blanket that as "most" of the death and destruction... and to assume that the net outcome of Iraq for instance would have not led to even more deaths (do you have a time / alternate universe machine?) makes your claim unnecessarily simplistic. And to prove my point I only need to lead you to this link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_other_acts_of_genocide_has_occured_in_50_years

Lol. What a load of shit. I get criticized for calling the NK government evil, while we have many in this thread putting all the blame on the United States as if our history doesn't showcase the versatile range of evil that goes on all over the world by all sorts of people (including the US). It's simply a fiction to think that some group of people can control the world. It is absurd and dangerous. Pretty good post Smetty, but could you expand more on how more access to the outside world for the NK people will in anyway shift the power back to them and away from the regime? It seems to me that any small attempt to dissent or discuss escape sends you and your family to concentration camps where you starve.

wtf damn... my entire post got deleted in an edit fuk

I think like a cancer, the longer we wait the harder it will be and the more lives that will be affected by a conflict. Stockpiling weapons, improving military technology, weapon dealings with other enemies, all lead me to believe that the idea of waiting and letting the NK people continue to live completely oppressed and starving is potentially more morally objectionable. than say a targeted attack on NK military key points and the assassination of the leaders of the NK Government. There is no perfect solution but if the stance is simply wait and see, there must be some real understanding of what those consequences might be as well.

excellent

I bet you would agree with this video. Yet not the Islamic. Which is exactly my point.

The new left is becoming more and more fascist and totalitarian in with their double-talk. Their criticisms are so deluded, that social justice and morality is only important on the surface. As an example:

lol its amazing how liberals who say they are for human rights here in the west don't see the great evil and hardship others are under. If we could all just hold hands and sing songs everyone would be equal and free and there would be no war or murder. lol...

Further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine

too late for edit: Not to mention the possible exchange of dangerous weapons from NK to terrorists or other states. Which NK was in talks for 2 years with Saddam Hussien: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/01/world/region-inflamed-weapons-for-iraqis-missile-deal-that-went-sour-files-tell-talks.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

No, I'm pretty sure Hitchens is very forward about his war against Islam and all religions. Maybe you should watch the clip instead of assuming. edit: @ Hoodie, no one really knows, but it is of my belief that there appears to be no real end to the tremendous suffering of the NK people unless the dictatorship is overthrown. And that only seems possible with military intervention at this point. In the Hitchens clip its noted that at the line where NK and SK soldiers stand and face each other, the NK government rotates their strongest/most committed soldiers.. which are on average 6 inches smaller than those of SK. Why? Because from birth the lack of food and nutrition stunts the brain/body from growing. The NK people are literally in a totalitarian hell. Watch the Hitchens clip if you want to hear a much more raw and blunt description of what it would be like to even live a day in a place like NK. I'm not referring to Hitchens' use of the term - I'm referring to the inclusion of North Korea in the "axis of evil" in Bush's original State of the Union address. It is very likely that NK was included in that speech specifically to avoid the criticism of being a war against Islam. Military intervention would be a surefire means of ensuring the deaths of millions of people in South Korea and Japan. The NK people are in a totalitarian state, but to call it a hell1 is the worst kind of rhetoric, that does nothing to promote discourse, which, if you'd actually been paying attention to North Korea at all in the last two decades, was something that worked remarkably well (see the "sunshine policy" and the 1994 "agreed framework"). And to say that change is not happening from within is also some ridiculous hyperbole. Yes, it is slow, and it can sometimes seem as if NK is taking one step forward and two steps back, but change is inevitable, especially as the proliferation of communication technology proceeds. The NK government has already lost control of the internal cell phone network for example. University students and professors have been engaging in overseas studies, and the more NK people who see the outside world the better. Especially if they get to engage with foreign intellectuals. Are North Koreans wary and paranoid? Yes, of course they are. That's the nature of life in a totalitarian state. But they are also people who, at the end of the day, don't want US "liberation" any more than the Iraqis did. pattern recognition: if you think it's financially irresponsible of the US to send 2 bombers across the Pacific, wait until you see the plans for the missile defense shield to defend against North Korea's missiles! http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/world/asia/us-to-bolster-missile-defense-against-north-korea.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 1: OK, their domestically produced goods are terrible, especially the alcohol and cigarettes. I disagree, first why the assumption that Bush, Hitchens, or anyone who refers to North Korea as evil is only doing so because of necessity to avoid signaling out Islam? From wiki on Sunshine Policy: Now, an overview of the Sunshine Policy goals: What it achieved (briefly): Kim Dae-jung administration Kim Dae-jung administration Roh administration So from my brief understanding of the achievements of the Sunshine Policy we saw and I quote "several high-profile business ventures, and brief meetings of family members separated by the Korean War." And this is proof of discourse working remarkably well on the front of people starving in a 1984 totalitarian dictatorship? I'll have to read some sources on advances with cell phone/internet availability to NK people but what makes you so sure that some kind of internal revolution is possible without military assistance? Also, as we continue to wait it out and attempt to come up with a few more dozen ways to give money to the NK government and a dozen or so more brief family meetings.... the NK government will continue to advance its military and gain more nuclear weapons. So then when as they say, "shit hits the fan" there will be more possibility of more disaster and more destruction. NK in its current form is like a cancer. The people who live inside, live in what I think is fair to call hell and the people who run its government are evil. Kim Jong Un really has no choice to carry out his duties as the son of the dear holy immortal leader (his grandfather) because of his upbringing. To give them more aid and call them our "equal," we are simply saying it is okay for you to treat people like props for the state. This is most certainly evil and I see no mystery on why any person would not see the NK government as an enemy.

No, I'm pretty sure Hitchens is very forward about his war against Islam and all religions. Maybe you should watch the clip instead of assuming. edit: @ Hoodie, no one really knows, but it is of my belief that there appears to be no real end to the tremendous suffering of the NK people unless the dictatorship is overthrown. And that only seems possible with military intervention at this point. In the Hitchens clip its noted that at the line where NK and SK soldiers stand and face each other, the NK government rotates their strongest/most committed soldiers.. which are on average 6 inches smaller than those of SK. Why? Because from birth the lack of food and nutrition stunts the brain/body from growing. The NK people are literally in a totalitarian hell. Watch the Hitchens clip if you want to hear a much more raw and blunt description of what it would be like to even live a day in a place like NK.